Analysis Derek Hine leaves the Pies

[Apex36]

Must be Buckley's fault then, because our list is very weak atm, unless you are counting all the young blokes we have that are still UNPROVEN. He is a good talent scout for Midfielders and even then, he picks a lot of slow ones

There’s more to judging a list than only the perceived talent on there. Coaching and development plays a huge part in it, as well as the coaches input on what’s required.
Our list was regarded as weak by many in 2017 before Buckley was forced to change his ways, and it resulted in the club coming within a kick of a premiership. Conversely, Buckley seemed to slip back in to old habits in the years after, resulting in poorer and poorer results. Laying the blame squarely on Hine for the current strengths and weaknesses of the list is unfair. Yes, he needs to shoulder some responsibility, but some blame needs to be given to Buckley, Walsh and Guy, who have all had a significant say in the build of this list.

It will be interesting to see what effect the change of coaching has this year. Personally I don’t believe this list is as weak as it’s perceived to be, but it has been poorly coached and developed, save for one year in the last 10 where the coach was forced to do things differently.

 

[magpies42]

Must be Buckley's fault then, because our list is very weak atm, unless you are counting all the young blokes we have that are still UNPROVEN. He is a good talent scout for Midfielders and even then, he picks a lot of slow ones

Our list issues are a result of broader problems around list management. Which includes injury management and picking according to strategy. In some cases prized picks were sent to meet Eddie’s objectives, e.g bringing back Beams!

 

[chestbrah]

Has built lists that have taken us to three grand finals (and a replay), as well as a kick away from a fourth, in the last 12 seasons.

Does his job exceptionally well and certainly not the part of the club that cops any of my frustration.

 

[Scodog10]

I think talent ID is the one area we’ve consistently got right for the past two decades. It’s coaching and development that’s held us back for mine. I’ve got serious concerns over the structure of our list when it comes to height and we should address that early in the 2022 draft, but I’m confident that’s more to do with how we wanted to play than our recruiting teams ability to find KPP talent.

 

[AndrewShawble]

Has built lists that have taken us to three grand finals (and a replay), as well as a kick away from a fourth, in the last 12 seasons.

Does his job exceptionally well and certainly not the part of the club that cops any of my frustration.

We average making them something like every 4.5 years since the league began, the club has a history of getting very average sides into the GF.

2010/11 was the only time we went in with a balanced list.

 

[chestbrah]

We average making them something like every 4.5 years since the league began, the club has a history of getting very average sides into the GF.

2010/11 was the only time we went in with a balanced list.

The consistency with which we’ve made them in the last two decades is incredible, in a modern competition we’ve outperformed what should be a cyclical up and down the ladder process.
Notwithstanding our ability to lose grand finals, I think our list was well balanced in 2018 - key injuries to defenders ruined us.

 

[magpies42]

We average making them something like every 4.5 years since the league began, the club has a history of getting very average sides into the GF.

2010/11 was the only time we went in with a balanced list.

Or you can interpret that as he picks players that fill a need. Aside from Wells at Geelong, and they have the benefit of the Falcons, I don’t know that there is a better talent scout in the league.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

We average making them something like every 4.5 years since the league began, the club has a history of getting very average sides into the GF.

2010/11 was the only time we went in with a balanced list.

Are we? Or maybe we have recruited well to get to so many grand finals. Whatever narrative suits I guess.

 

[sr36]

I think talent ID is the one area we’ve consistently got right for the past two decades. It’s coaching and development that’s held us back for mine. I’ve got serious concerns over the structure of our list when it comes to height and we should address that early in the 2022 draft, but I’m confident that’s more to do with how we wanted to play than our recruiting teams ability to find KPP talent.

2010-2019 drafts weren't much chop for us (except for 2014 + Grundy) - I think our selection criteria was poorly weighted. We got some good ones through trade though.

 

[Kappa]

Has built lists that have taken us to three grand finals (and a replay), as well as a kick away from a fourth, in the last 12 seasons.

Does his job exceptionally well and certainly not the part of the club that cops any of my frustration.

Are you saying Hine built our 2010 premiership list… ?

 

[AndrewShawble]

2010-2019 drafts weren't much chop for us (except for 2014 + Grundy) - I think our selection criteria was poorly weighted. We got some good ones through trade though.

Yep, you’re right. Here’s 8 years of 1st rounders mainly burnt through drafts and trades.

2012

• Pick 18, Brodie Grundy
• Pick 19, Ben Kennedy
• Pick 20, Tom Broomhead

2013

• Pick 6, Scharenberg
• Pick 10, Freeman

2014

• Pick 5, De Goey
• Pick 9, Moore

2015

• Pick 7, traded for Treloar

2016

• Pick 7, traded for Treloar

2017

• Pick 6, Jaidyn Stephenson

2018

• Pick 18, traded for Dayne Beams

2019

• first round pick, traded for Dayne Beams

 

[sr36]

Yep, you’re right. Here’s 8 years of 1st rounders mainly burnt through drafts and trades.

2012

• Pick 18, Brodie Grundy
• Pick 19, Ben Kennedy
• Pick 20, Tom Broomhead

2013

• Pick 6, Scharenberg
• Pick 10, Freeman

2014

• Pick 5, De Goey
• Pick 9, Moore

2015

• Pick 7, traded for Treloar

2016

• Pick 7, traded for Treloar

2017

• Pick 6, Jaidyn Stephenson

2018

• Pick 18, traded for Dayne Beams

2019

• first round pick, traded for Dayne Beams

If you look at the later picks, it's even worse - barely a hit - you're basically looking at Phillips, Mihocek, and Langdon (I've probably missed someone and I think Ruscoe will join them) as our only post pick 40 hits over the course of a decade. That's why we have no depth.

 

[manicpie]

There is nothing special about Hine and his ability find talent. He seems to be stuck in his his ways and hasn't been able to keep up with the better recruiters of the last 5 years or so

 

[jmac70]

Why are people picking on Derek?

 

[chestbrah]

Are you saying Hine built our 2010 premiership list… ?

He played a huge role in it.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

He played a huge role in it.

Agree he was head of recruiting for the selection of Pendlebury, Thomas, Reid, N Brown, Blair, Wellingham, Goldsack, Toovey, Dawes, Macaffer, Sidebottom and Beams. Helped recruit L Brown, Ball and Jolly. Thats over half the team. Was he with the Pies pre 2005 in a recruiting role?
You could argue that it would take at least 5 years to put together a list and that 2010 onwards the list was pretty much his.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Why are people picking on Derek?

running out of scapegoats

 

[Carringbush2010]

There’s more to judging a list than only the perceived talent on there. Coaching and development plays a huge part in it, as well as the coaches input on what’s required.
Our list was regarded as weak by many in 2017 before Buckley was forced to change his ways, and it resulted in the club coming within a kick of a premiership. Conversely, Buckley seemed to slip back in to old habits in the years after, resulting in poorer and poorer results. Laying the blame squarely on Hine for the current strengths and weaknesses of the list is unfair. Yes, he needs to shoulder some responsibility, but some blame needs to be given to Buckley, Walsh and Guy, who have all had a significant say in the build of this list.

It will be interesting to see what effect the change of coaching has this year. Personally I don’t believe this list is as weak as it’s perceived to be, but it has been poorly coached and developed, save for one year in the last 10 where the coach was forced to do things differently.

Great post Apex!

 

[chestbrah]

Agree he was head of recruiting for the selection of Pendlebury, Thomas, Reid, N Brown, Blair, Wellingham, Goldsack, Toovey, Dawes, Macaffer, Sidebottom and Beams. Helped recruit L Brown, Ball and Jolly. Thats over half the team. Was he with the Pies pre 2005 in a recruiting role?
You could argue that it would take at least 5 years to put together a list and that 2010 onwards the list was pretty much his.

That teams boasts the title of most rookie listed players ever on the same team to win a flag.

Staggering that his input could be questioned.

 

[sr36]

That teams boasts the title of most rookie listed players ever on the same team to win a flag.

Staggering that his input could be questioned.

We recruited those successful rookies over 15 years ago. Between Blair and now, unless I'm missing someone, Mihocek is the only Category A rookie success story we've had. Hopefully Ginnivan can join him.

 

[Markfs]

I feel like I've entered an alternative universe when I see posters defending a pie official on the basis of what he did a decade ago...

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

I feel like I've entered an alternative universe when I see posters defending a pie official on the basis of what he did a decade ago...

We are made finals every year except 2005, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2021 during his tenure. Thats finals in 2 out of 3 years while he has been head of recruiting. Thats fairly solid.

 

[Markfs]

We are made finals every year except 2005, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2021 during his tenure. Thats finals in 2 out of 3 years while he has been head of recruiting. Thats fairly solid.

yes and he's been limited by loss of first rounders through trading. He seemed to do well in the early years when he was recruiting goers who couldnt kick too well...

 

[sr36]

yes and he's been limited by loss of first rounders through trading. He seemed to do well in the early years when he was recruiting goers who couldnt kick too well...

We've traded a few out, but we've also brought a few in. Overall, he's had a pretty standard hand in terms of first rounders.

Kicking and pace have become increasingly important. I don't think he adapted his recruiting criteria quickly enough for either kicking or pace in terms of smalls. With talls, I think he went too far the other way and focussed too much on athleticism and not enough on contested ability. Coaching was also probably partly to blame - as they should have been screaming for the attributes that we weren't weighting heavily enough. It shouldn't be an issue from here on in though.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

We accept coaches and players have their ups and downs. Why not the recruiters? Personally I think Derek Hine has done his finest work in the last two years. Obviously the jury is still out but I can't think of a bad player amongst them that I can see. And going back further Bianco was a steal while Rantall was a bad mistake the previous year. The recruiter's success rate runs about 50:50 so that year was average with the poor picks we had. And before that 2013 was a disaster with Scharenberg and Freeman, while 2004 remains the standout with Thomas and Pendlebury.