Did We Write Off Hawthorn Too Soon?

[Guardian Hawk]

North have won 10+ games in 10 of the last 12 seasons.

I’d say that’s a pretty good one.

Not really. 10 wins is no milestone - that's a poor season. Last year, for example, 10 wins is 13th position. That's a very low finish and warrants a high draft pick. Not to mention North was actually only 1 win from the spoon just last year. North have no excuses - they have been mediocre for 2 decades, topping up with B graders when they are no chance at a flag and failing to attract any big names because they have been an average club with no support for so long.

Anyway, it's not usual for me to pot other clubs as I have respect for the way that North goes about things in a number of ways - just took some exception to a troll getting so stuck in about how mediocre Hawthorn are when his club finally registers a win against said side and will likely be passed on the ladder by that side as early as next week..

 

[Snake_Baker]

This post is my favourite. Not only are you proud of picking up players that couldn't get a game or were delisted from a superior club (to continue North's long history of being bent over by Hawthorn at the trade table), you go and compare them to players vastly superior to them in every way.

It's almost like your trolling North.

Next you'll bring up Jon Hay and compare him to Josh Gibson or something.

North Melbourne 14-14-98 def Hawthorn 11-4-70.

Yep, the jokes on me.

 

[PhatBoy]

Not really. 10 wins is no milestone - that's a poor season. Last year, for example, 10 wins is 13th position. That's a very low finish and warrants a high draft pick. Not to mention North was actually only 1 win from the spoon just last year. North have no excuses - they have been mediocre for 2 decades, topping up with B graders when they are no chance at a flag and failing to attract any big names because they have been an average club with no support for so long.

Anyway, it's not usual for me to pot other clubs as I have respect for the way that North goes about things in a number of ways - just took some exception to a troll getting so stuck in about how mediocre Hawthorn are when his club finally registers a win against said side and will likely be passed on the ladder by that side as early as next week..

8, 8, 6, 10, 8, 9, 9, 13, 7, 4.

Their finishing spot all the way back to 2007.

Not as high as Hawthorn obviously but high enough to ensure almost every year that they had little exposure to the cream of the draft. That’s their excuse and it’s a decent one.

 

[tigs2010]

Nope. Think we nailed it.

 

[Pessimistic]

Nope. Think we nailed it.

Going better than any tiger year in nearly four decades bar a handful

As I said can we be gorn most years then

 

[tigs2010]

Going better than any tiger year in nearly four decades bar a handful

As I said can we be gorn most years then

Ahh the old resort to the posters team tactic. Not sure whats more embarrassing your post or Sundays performance at Etihad.

 

[yeahmate]

Without reading too far back, I take it the general consensus this week is no?

 

[FisherHawk]

I didn't have them written off but penciled them in at 2/3. Hawks currently at 3/2 and In the 8. Great start to the season!!!

 

[Guardian Hawk]

North Melbourne 14-14-98 def Hawthorn 11-4-70.

Yep, the jokes on me.

Congratulations to North for a rare home and away win - their third against the Hawks in a decade. How does this change the fact that your opinions are laughably stupid?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Congratulations to North for a rare home and away win - their third against the Hawks in a decade. How does this change the fact that your opinions are laughably stupid?

 

[frggr]

?? Priority picks were all but abolished years ago - how is that an excuse for continued mediocrity for nearly 2 decades, right up to now?

and whilst I know that was a swipe at Hawthorn - Hawthorn's net gain from priority picks was Lance Franklin and Beau Dowler. Hawthorn won 2 flags with neither on their list and another with Buddy used as a decoy. That nearly matches North's entire history of 'success'.

Priority picks: Hodge (01), Roughead (04) and Xavier Ellis (05)

How many of those guys were on Hawthorn Premiership teams?

(Yes, Hodge's pick came via trade with Fremantle, but it was a priority pick all the same).

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Ha ha...I quite like that! No doubt Hawthorn have some list holes to fill in the coming season(s). More midfield class and most importantly, a key forward (ala Brown).

Similarly, North have some worries too IMO. 3 of your 5 best on the weekend were Tarrant (29), Thompson (32) and Waite (35) which is most of your spine. Higgins (30) is your classiest (and only non "meat and potatoes" mid IMO) player. Do you have incumbents on your list for those spine roles? Mabe Daw could do a Tarrant and blossom late in his career in defence?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Ha ha...I quite like that! No doubt Hawthorn have some list holes to fill in the coming season(s). More midfield class and most importantly, a key forward (ala Brown).

Similarly, North have some worries too IMO. 3 of your 5 best on the weekend were Tarrant (29), Thompson (32) and Waite (35) which is most of your spine. Higgins (30) is your classiest (and only non "meat and potatoes" mid IMO) player. Do you have incumbents on your list for those spine roles? Mabe Daw could do a Tarrant and blossom late in his career in defence?

I addressed most of it here:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...y-since-hawthorn.1191694/page-6#post-55316803

Yes, our midfield is an issue. A person would have to be living on a desert island for the past two years not to know this. We went very hard in the trade period and draft to rectify the situation and the club has stated we will be doing the same thing this year. If we can fix that up quickly, I expect us to be back in finals contention.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Priority picks: Hodge (01), Roughead (04) and Xavier Ellis (05)

How many of those guys were on Hawthorn Premiership teams?

(Yes, Hodge's pick came via trade with Fremantle, but it was a priority pick all the same).

Using Hodge as an example demonstrates complete ignorance to the context of the discussion being had. The argument was that North are mediocre and have been for so long due to not having priority picks. Hawthorn obtained Pick 1 by trading out 2 young All Australian level key position players. That would be like North trading Ben Brown and another good young KPP if they had one. North could easily obtain pick 1 by trading Brown and another very good player if they wanted.

As for Roughead and Ellis - I already mentioned those drafts. "The net gain of priority picks was Lance Franklin and Beau Dowler". That is, if you remove priority picks from those drafts, Hawthorn end up with pick 2 both times - getting Roughy and Ellis (and missing Buddy and Dowler).

Buddy won 2 flags with the Hawks, Dowler won none.

Hawthorn won 2 flags without either (and 1 where Buddy was a peripheral figure).

 

[Snake_Baker]

Using Hodge as an example demonstrates complete ignorance to the context of the discussion being had. The argument was that North are mediocre and have been for so long due to not having priority picks. Hawthorn obtained Pick 1 by trading out 2 young All Australian level key position players. That would be like North trading Ben Brown and another good young KPP if they had one. North could easily obtain pick 1 by trading Brown and another very good player if they wanted.

As for Roughead and Ellis - I already mentioned those drafts. "The net gain of priority picks was Lance Franklin and Beau Dowler". That is, if you remove priority picks from those drafts, Hawthorn end up with pick 2 both times - getting Roughy and Ellis (and missing Buddy and Dowler).

Buddy won 2 flags with the Hawks, Dowler won none.

Hawthorn won 2 flags without either (and 1 where Buddy was a peripheral figure).

Forget all that. Your coach is a genius and the major driving force behind your clubs recent run of success.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I addressed most of it here:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...y-since-hawthorn.1191694/page-6#post-55316803

Yes, our midfield is an issue. A person would have to be living on a desert island for the past two years not to know this. We went very hard in the trade period and draft to rectify the situation and the club has stated we will be doing the same thing this year. If we can fix that up quickly, I expect us to be back in finals contention.

Thanks for that. Agree regarding your midfield - it is a problem for Hawthorn also except that I think Hawthorn have the cream already (Mitchell and O'Meara) but not the depth.

In terms of your future spine, I am not sure. Listing VFL players (Hawthorn fans do this a lot) is dangerous IMO as most do not become what we hope they will (and all teams have players performing at VFL level). Preuss is the only one that I think has shown something at AFL level. Wood and Garner have also but these are not true 'spine' players - though the game is heading away from needing a lot of true KPP's (I hope so as Hawthorn have Gunston, Sicily, Burton, etc.). I'm also not sure your career timeframes on all of those players are realistic - some could last that long, some (most) will not. Regardless, talls take time to develop so you will need quality replacements developing now (as do Hawthorn with Roughead in particular). At least you have found the hardest piece to get/develop - a quality key forward.

P.S. Agree with your comment that Clarko is the biggest factor in Hawthorn's success - not only during the premiership years but even that we remain (mostly) competitive now.

 

[frggr]

Using Hodge as an example demonstrates complete ignorance to the context of the discussion being had. The argument was that North are mediocre and have been for so long due to not having priority picks. Hawthorn obtained Pick 1 by trading out 2 young All Australian level key position players. That would be like North trading Ben Brown and another good young KPP if they had one. North could easily obtain pick 1 by trading Brown and another very good player if they wanted.

As for Roughead and Ellis - I already mentioned those drafts. "The net gain of priority picks was Lance Franklin and Beau Dowler". That is, if you remove priority picks from those drafts, Hawthorn end up with pick 2 both times - getting Roughy and Ellis (and missing Buddy and Dowler).

Buddy won 2 flags with the Hawks, Dowler won none.

Hawthorn won 2 flags without either (and 1 where Buddy was a peripheral figure).

Sorry, reading comprehension fail on my part.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Thanks for that. Agree regarding your midfield - it is a problem for Hawthorn also except that I think Hawthorn have the cream already (Mitchell and O'Meara) but not the depth.

In terms of your future spine, I am not sure. Listing VFL players (Hawthorn fans do this a lot) is dangerous IMO as most do not become what we hope they will (and all teams have players performing at VFL level). Preuss is the only one that I think has shown something at AFL level. Wood and Garner have also but these are not true 'spine' players - though the game is heading away from needing a lot of true KPP's (I hope so as Hawthorn have Gunston, Sicily, Burton, etc.). I'm also not sure your career timeframes on all of those players are realistic - some could last that long, some (most) will not. Regardless, talls take time to develop so you will need quality replacements developing now (as do Hawthorn with Roughead in particular). At least you have found the hardest piece to get/develop - a quality key forward.

P.S. Agree with your comment that Clarko is the biggest factor in Hawthorn's success - not only during the premiership years but even that we remain (mostly) competitive now.

Well, there's no doubt that I watch them a bit more than you do, so I understand your reservations. I tend to get to plenty of VFL matches.

Personally, I'm not listing those blokes because they are in the VFL, I am listing them because I think they will be/are AFL quality players.

Ben McKay would arguably be your full back right now. Certainly Carlton's full back. Melbourne & Richmond would also probably be playing him in the seniors, due to balance/injury issues. He's stiff not to be playing in our side because Tarrant & Thompson have been killing it and Majak offers more flexibility as a swing player.

 

[Pessimistic]

Without reading too far back, I take it the general consensus this week is no?

Hawks win = yes
Hawks lose = no

Premise of the thread is that hawks would be cellar dwellers. Now its moved to 'no chance of a flag'

A bit like the O'Meara thread. Started out 'complete bust' now its qualified "unless he plays 200 games"
Lake played 54 for us. How'd that go again?

 

[Pessimistic]

Ahh the old resort to the posters team tactic. Not sure whats more embarrassing your post or Sundays performance at Etihad.

Well it is abit easy when the Hawks are easily the best over five decades even with a period of 15y when we were literally "worse than richmond"

We will have our high points and low points in the near future. As we did when we were the only team to lose to carlton in the last 15 rounds

 

[Snake_Baker]

Well it is abit easy when the Hawks are easily the best over five decades even with a period of 15y when we were literally "worse than richmond".

You were also the worst team in the competition for 35 years.

This stuff is lame. Drop it.

 

[Pessimistic]

You were also the worst team in the competition for 35 years.

This stuff is lame. Drop it.

One of the best party clubs apparently. stuff was still legal then

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Well, there's no doubt that I watch them a bit more than you do, so I understand your reservations. I tend to get to plenty of VFL matches.

Personally, I'm not listing those blokes because they are in the VFL, I am listing them because I think they will be/are AFL quality players.

Ben McKay would arguably be your full back right now. Certainly Carlton's full back. Melbourne & Richmond would also probably be playing him in the seniors, due to balance/injury issues. He's stiff not to be playing in our side because Tarrant & Thompson have been killing it and Majak offers more flexibility as a swing player.

Fair enough - there is no doubt you know those players much better than I.

My point about VFL players was more that fans of all clubs think players in their VFL team are guns in waiting. Hawthorn fans are notorious - believing that because our side has been so strong recently (and therefore hard to break into) and there are guys who regularly dominate at VFL level - they will step up and become good to great AFL players when given the chance.

You are as old as I am so I am sure you can recount hundreds of youngsters with potential that just never made it - it happens far more often than not (and 90% of the time the truly great players are already in the AFL side and are performing from day dot).

Will keep an eye on McKay though.

 

[Pessimistic]

Draft and VFL is a small part of the Hawks recruitment. I'd almost say Box Hill has been as good for other teams as it has Hawthorn

 

[Franko Armani]

I dunno, we are really only playing one good qtr of footy a game but banking the 4 points most weeks. Can we keep it up? Some tough games ahead against the current top 8.