Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

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Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:
  • Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
  • Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
  • Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
  • 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
  • 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
  • Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
  • Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty
TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR :rolleyes:
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?
 
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LRitz said:
Did they reenact FF leaving the GFM's house?
Would have been interesting to see him at 9:03 in the kitchen and at the same time being past Kendall driving to Lakewood.
Click to expand...
I want to see the reenactment of her sprinting from BCR to FGM house in under a minute then activating the cloaking shield so that Anne Maree didn't see her as she drove back down Benaroon, then waving to the semi trailer driver who wasn't Peter, then activating the cloaking device once again on the way back, racing in and grabbing the phone to call 000 without being out of breath.
 
InTheBleachers said:
Experts gave evidence that WT's spiderman suit would still be in existence if left at Batar Creek Rd, and that WT's bones would have been caught in the dams if he was washed away into water.

They said that no forensic evidence has ever been found.
Click to expand...
William was in a spiderman suit in the photo (see I did not mention the time).
We can not assume what William was wearing after this. Assume nothing.
No forensic evidence. Maybe they have the wrong crime scene - possible.
 

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Kurve said:
Losing further credibility imo is not a risk the brass would have been prepared to take.

'Testing a theory' isn't great framing when dozens of cops over three weeks dug up a huge area on Batar Creek Road and turned Kendall upside down again over three weeks on NEW INFORMATION.

I believe press sympathetic to the Fosters first used the word 'theory' to undermine the cops and it's still going on.
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I think that is why the police made it clear that the 2021 digging up of the Batar Creek Road area was under coroners instructions.

The same reason why Mr Craddock made sure the public know that the coroner didn't request the crime commission hearing or the request for advice to the DPP.

So each can maintain their credibility.

The place where the police went wrong is by making the 2021 search so very public. The search had to be done. It did not have to be done with such an enormously high profile brought on by police press conferences. Barriers could have been set up to keep the press at a distance, in the way that has been done for targeted searches for other people.
 
Awakening said:
I think it’s a fair assumption that FM lied.
Click to expand...

She also lied and denied assaults and kicking to actually marking, to then try a mental health defence when the evidence was towards a long history of discipline by striking.

That was eye opening.
 
Kurve said:
She also lied and denied assaults and kicking to actually marking, to then try a mental health defence when the evidence was towards a long history of discipline by striking.

That was eye opening.
Click to expand...

The evidence showed no pattern of violence. I don't know if you can read this article or not as it might be paywalled.

Magistrate McIntyre listened to the 1,000 hours of of recordings done by the police. She noted for the record that transcripts provided by the police were taken out of context. She found no pattern of violence.

The child was interviewed twice with about 750 questions asked each time. The magistrate said some of those questions were leading questions.
The child is quoted from the interviews as saying the FM is nice and easy to talk to. That she could be bossy and was always telling the child what to do.

Which, of course, is not to condone what happened. But gives more insight into no pattern of violence. Even if it is not what people might like to hear.

 
LRitz said:
So she was not present herself when she took the drive?

Exact? Sounds like she can not even put it sequence before or after other events. She walked down to the end of the road towards the bus stop after seeing Anne Maree . She does not say I have already looked there.
Click to expand...

Yes. As per an earlier post I made, where the FM was repeatedly asked at the crime commission what time she took the drive, and she repeatedly said she didn’t know or I can’t remember.

Couldn’t even give an approximate time. In attempt to get some idea she’s asked if the drive took place before or after FF returned and she answered I don’t know to that too.
 
InTheBleachers said:
The evidence showed no pattern of violence. I don't know if you can read this article or not as it might be paywalled.

Magistrate McIntyre listened to the 1,000 hours of of recordings done by the police. She noted for the record that transcripts provided by the police were taken out of context. She found no pattern of violence.

The child was interviewed twice with about 750 questions asked each time. The magistrate said some of those questions were leading questions.
The child is quoted from the interviews as saying the FM is nice and easy to talk to. That she could be bossy and was always telling the child what to do.

Which, of course, is not to condone what happened. But gives more insight into no pattern of violence. Even if it is not what people might like to hear.

Click to expand...

I would call assault by kicking and disciplining with an implement over time, a history. History includes years, which is more than 1000 hours of recordings that were available to the magistrate.

We've had a long discussion about this in the earlier thread.
 
31550 said:
~10:40?
FF returns home at 10.35 met by FM in carport at which time there is the "Have you got William?" FF goes to the Millers and FM goes to Anne Maree. Give her a minute to get there and find her and ask if she's seen a little boy, and for Anne Maree to comfort her and tell her about the bus shelter. I reckon that just about makes 10.40 but you can say 10.37 or 10.38 if you like.
Click to expand...

This is according to FM. Who we know is unreliable narrator.

According to various media reports, FM didn’t encounter AMS to 11:30.
 
31550 said:
The deputy coroner made a point of saying,
“I pause to say there is actually no evidence that anyone has been seen placing a body here or anywhere else.”

How about saying, "There is actually no evidence that supports anything the FM has told us about her movements that morning"? There is no evidence that William ever 'went missing'.

There is no evidence that the FM looked anywhere for William before the 000 call. There is no evidence that the FF looked anywhere for William before the 000 call. There is no evidence that the FGM looked anywhere for William at all. There is no evidence for the FM's whereabouts between 9:37 and 10:40. There is no evidence for the FGM's whereabouts between 9:37 and around 12:30 (Wendy Hudson) that I can find.

If nobody can prove they 'looked for' William until after 10:40am, then why is it assumed he went missing so much earlier? Why is it assumed he went missing at all?
Click to expand...
Agree: It is possible there was no initial search by FM before FF returns.

All that searching and calling for William. But even FGM says it was quiet when she allegedly followed FM to the front of the house. Why did she not hear FM calling out? Maybe FM did not go to search around the house. Maybe FGM did not follow FM towards the road. Thats why FGM did not know what way she herself walked! They did not bother to enact a false search. They were, possible, inside having tea and getting there stories straight, again all IMO.

Why did the neighbours in a quiet morning not hear people yelling in the street and come out?

I spoke to someone who could not see her 4 year old while playing in a park. She said she went into total panic mode, running wildly around and SCREAMING. He was found in just minutes and had wandered a short distance behind some bushes. Any way, the point is she said she was totally hoarse from this, her voice had gone. Yet FM yelling for William from 10:25 for say half an hour sounds like her voice is OK on the 000 call. Just a thought.
 
Kurve said:
I would call assault by kicking and disciplining with an implement over time, a history. History includes years, which is more than 1000 hours of recordings.

We've had a long discussion about this in the earlier thread.
Click to expand...

The magistrate is probably better placed to know what is on the 1,000 hours of recordings. Having listened to them all. It doesn't sound as if any evidence was brought in about any long history. There is nothing about that in the court reporting. And she did say no pattern of violence.

I know there was an incident where FM was rightly told not to put a child outside for time out. Other than that, this bruising of the eye thing is pure conjecture. WT's visit to the hospital wasn't listed as potential child abuse as far as I know. Have you seen something official that says it was?
 

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InTheBleachers said:
The magistrate is probably better placed to know what is on the 1,000 hours of recordings. Having listened to them all. It doesn't sound as if any evidence was brought in about any long history. There is nothing about that in the court reporting.

I know there was an incident where FM was rightly told not to put a child outside for time out. Other than that, this bruising of the eye thing is pure conjecture. WT's visit to the hospital wasn't listed as potential child abuse as far as I know. Have you seen something official that says it was?
Click to expand...

Are you trying to minimise what she did?

I'm drawing attention to the 1,000 hours of very limited recordings. Those recordings also hold details of the FM hunting through the house looking for the implement to hit the child with and demanding to know where she hid it.

That indicates a history of using the implements to hit the child with.

So the magistrate couldn't prove a pattern on the limited recordings that were available, that's what I'm saying.

Kids also can be horribly abused over a long period of time and still praise their parents, holding on to and relishing any act of kindness.
 
InTheBleachers said:
The evidence showed no pattern of violence. I don't know if you can read this article or not as it might be paywalled.

Magistrate McIntyre listened to the 1,000 hours of of recordings done by the police. She noted for the record that transcripts provided by the police were taken out of context. She found no pattern of violence.

The child was interviewed twice with about 750 questions asked each time. The magistrate said some of those questions were leading questions.
The child is quoted from the interviews as saying the FM is nice and easy to talk to. That she could be bossy and was always telling the child what to do.

Which, of course, is not to condone what happened. But gives more insight into no pattern of violence. Even if it is not what people might like to hear.

Click to expand...
There is a pattern of violence that that’s part of the reason why there is an Apprehended Violence Order to protect a female foster child against the two former foster parents of William Tyrrell, ****.

It goes for 5 years. AVO’s are put in place to protect people from violence.

I’ve heard the tapes played in court: Horrific. It’s the stuff of nightmares.
 
Does anyone think the cars seen by Peter the truck driver are significant. Black Camry, work Ute, dark coloured (maybe burgundy) car (with ladder on top)?
Or is it just about whether he’d seen FM’s car or not in his travels?
 
Wallace52 said:
There is a pattern of violence that that’s part of the reason why there is an Apprehended Violence Order to protect a female foster child against the two former foster parents of William Tyrrell, ****.

It goes for 5 years. AVO’s are put in place to protect people from violence.

I’ve heard the tapes played in court: Horrific. It’s the stuff of nightmares.
Click to expand...
A couple of questions if I may:

Was it announced what the length of the AVO was - 5 years? That was an order put on by Magistrate Dene is that correct - in 2019? Can you recall the initial date it commenced on and what date it expires?

I cried just reading media reports, let alone sitting in Court hearing the whole recordings. Harrowing and how must it have been for the child to experience?
 
gymjam said:
A couple of questions if I may:

Was it announced what the length of the AVO was - 5 years? That was an order put on by Magistrate Dene is that correct - in 2019? Can you recall the initial date it commenced on and what date it expires?

I cried just reading media reports, let alone sitting in Court hearing the whole recordings. Harrowing and how must it have been for the child to experience?
Click to expand...
The AVO was recently renewed for another 5 years.
 
Earls Smother said:
As 31550 has said, the answer is very likely in the file. Remembering that the "file" includes footage from 169 (?) CCTV cameras.

There will be something there that someone saw that is relevant - it is a matter of working out who and what. The Claremont case had the blokes at the bus stop see the car with very specific wheel rims. It was very relevant but wasn't worked out until after he was identified in other ways. Perry K was in the file the whole time for Easey St.

The trouble is, if they can't pin it on the FM, resources will be dramatically reduced and it becomes much harder.
Click to expand...
Also Brett Cowan ‘was in the file’ from early on re Daniel Morecombe.
 
Does anyone know what Peter the truckie said when he rang the radio show?
Was it because he saw the lady that did the u turn and parked in front of his truck?
Did he see her at the op shop before of after that?
 
Wallace52 said:
It’s the timeline, Kurve .

What time was he on or near Batar Creek Road?

IMO Peter is adding to the police case because he did not see the FM or her Mazda car, which means she took the drive later…. Closer to the time of 10:30-10:40am….
Click to expand...
This is the timeline of someone (from early 2020) who had attended inquest days and used CO's book.

I have no idea of the accuracy but it supports the 10:30ish drive.

06:30 ish : PS goes for his walk

06:00 - 07:00 : kids wake up

07:00 - 07:30 : FFC opens curtains & sees 2 cars between # 31 ( AMS ) & #35 ( Peter's ) houses

07:30 : breakfast & dress etc

08:10 : AMS waves her kids of to school who are at the bus stop on crn Benaroon & Batar Ck Rd. She is standing at her carport.

08:40 : AMS reverses out to take her child to pre-school. Arrives at 9am. Saw no cars parked on the street.

08:40 : MFC leaves for Lakewood( from CO book suggested he left around 08:40 by CCTV @ the tennis club )

08:55 - 09:00 : MFC leaves Benaroon drive ( evidence from inquest evidence )

08:50 : PS back from his walk, he stopped for approx 30mins to talk to lady named "Lyn" -the lady from the caravan

09:02 : PS calls Casino hospital where his brother is ( call lasts 22 seconds )


09:03 : FFC calls Bill Spedding from FGM's landline, leaves a message. Call lasted 38 seconds

09:05 – 10:00 ish : ( most of this is from the CO book )FFC gave no direct times in her evidence also

*FFC took WT for walk around garden (Lindsay was inside with FGM),

*were playing “Mummy Monsters” FFC spotted good climbing tree, tried to get WT to climb tree, he was not interested “No mummy, too high”

* FFC noticed 2 cars she saw earlier. FFC sipped & grazed hand.

* FFC said at the inquest they were playing for “ around 5 minutes”

* Went inside to tend to hand, Lindsay asked what they had been doing, she than wanted to play “Mummy monsters” so they all went out again to play.

* Both kids collected leaves & twigs for cards they intended to make for “ Opa’s” grave

* Worked on cards for a while ( I think this might have been when the photos were taken @ 09:37) & than FGM said “ Okay , let’s see your new bikes”

* Both kids raced to carport ( MFC had taken bikes out of car the evening before )

* Kids rode up & down the driveway , only going as far as the road & not over the kerb.

* After a few laps WT suggested they have a race . so they did & took off to the end of the driveway. Lindsay stopped in the middle of the driveway & said “whose that car Mummy?” , FFC looked & saw dark green -grey sedan pull into the Millers driveway & reverse out & leave, she said “ I don’t know , probably the neighbours”

* Kids were than back riding theie bikes , Lindsay lost her balance coming down the driveway & fell into the garden, she was not hurt, WT than decided he would crash his bike into the garden also.

* FGM than said “I think it’s time to put these bikes away”

09:10 : GO calls FGM house ( from CO book )


09:30 - 09:35 : Crabbs arrive home @ 51 Benaroon Drive, did not see any cars on street. Went to toilet, made cup of teaa & sat on back deck.

09:37 : Photos taken on back deck of FGM

09:42 : MS & BS pay for coffees etc @ Buzz Café

09:45 - 09:45 : Mr Crabb hears a car turn around, sounds like posties ( from the inquest ) about 10 mins after getting home

09:59 – 10:07 : PS call Casino hospital, call lasts 8 minutes


10:10 – 10:05 : Mrs Crabb hears car sitting on back deck , about 40mins ( Mr Crabb said 10 mins ) after arriving home , thought “ sounded like the postman, car came up reasonably fast , did a u-turn & continued on it’s way” ( from her evidence )

10:00 -10:30ish :

FGM put kettle on ( after being outside with the kids riding the bikes ) ( from CO book )

Kids had now moved to the back deck , after teas made both FFC & FGM sat outside on deck.

Lindsay emptied the pencil container, & a dice rolled out, played dice game where Lindsay would jump the amount of times that the dice landed on.

WT came over & played as well, he soon got bored & than decided to play another game “ Daddy Tiger” , he pretended to be Daddy Tiger , he crawled around on the ground for a bit , playing at being a Tiger, He was running around roaring , in his Velcro sandals & spiderman suit .

He asked Lindsay if she wanted to play too, but she was concentrating on making her card, so William carried on without her , jumping of the deck , roaring & coming back again. He jumped of the deck , ran around the side of the house roared…………….than silence

10:30-10:56 : FFC ran to AMS’s house, asked if saw little boy in spiderman suit? , AMS said no, suggested bus stop on Crn Benaroon Drive & Batar Creek Rd, FFC ran to bus stop , heard the “scream” , ran back to # 48 Benaroon Drive, got in FGM car & drove looking for WT, drove down Batar Ck Rd, thought he could not have gotten that far, went back to FGM house, ran inside & got her mobile phone, saw message from MFC, she ran out to driveway , just as MFC drove in & asked him “ Have you got William?” “ No , why would I have William?” . I can’t find him the FFC said. MFC took off frantically looking for William.


10:05 - 10:15 : Detective Laura Beacroft thinks this time could be when WT went missing

10:10 - 10:15 : Laidlaw thinks this could be the time WT went missing

10:19 : MFC has script filled at chemist

10:20 : PS & MS left café to walk across to school

10:00 - 11:00 : Geoff Owen at Kendall Community centre paying for his advertising

10: 30 : MFC sent text, be back 5 minutes using Siri function on his phone.

10:30 : FFC noticed all quite, can see WT, can't hear WT, starts looking for him

10:35 : MFC arrives back in Benaroon Drive, meets FFC in driveway asks “ have you go

10:35 - 10:45 : Lydene Heslop arrives home from grocery shopping. Saw man on mower, saw no cars

10:37 - 10:38 : Heather Savage leaves for bingo

10:40 : AMS outside in carport having a cigarette, FFC comes to her fence. AMS could hear male voice loudly calling for William in the background coming from behind FGM's house.

10:41 : PS calls x-ray place ( short call )


10:45 : Ron Chapman looks at his clock on the wall, it's 10:45, he than sees the 2 cars

10:50 : AMS knocks on PS door, PS leaves to start searching.

10:56 : FFC calls 000 from FGM's landline standing outside, says she has been looking for William for about 15 or 20 minutes.

11:00 : Snr Sgt Chris Rowley see's the job

11:00 ish : Mrs Crabb said FFC & MFC came up their driveway extremely distressed ( CO book ) The asked me “ Have you seen a little boy in a spiderman suit?” MFC looked around their backyard. Crabbs had a quick look in their garden before hurrying out in their car & drove to a property who they knew had a pool ( they knew a child who had drowned ) , banged on front door, no-one home. Searched pool.

Than went to the Miller’s ( they were collecting mail & putting bins out etc whilst the Miller’s were away) They did not have a key for the Miller’s, knew a relative & drove to get key, went back to Miller parked in their driveway & watched police enter the house. William was not there. BY now people were everywhere calling out his name.

11:06 : Snr Sgt Chris Rowley arrives @ Benaroon Drive

11:30 ish : Inspector Aldridge arrives

11:30 - 11:45 : PS back from search

12:19 : Parts delivered to BS house for FGM washing machine ( other parts delivered Thus 11/11/14 )

12:30 : Snr Cnt Tim Williams arrives ( Land & Search Co-Ordinator )

"lunchtime" : Paul Berg arrives ( SES )

12:45 : Snr Cnt Wendy Hudson arrives ( was on an ADO ) with her 2 sons

13:00 : Greg & Regina Newton arrive @ PS's ( as per his testimony )

13:15 - 13:30 : GN & RG arrive at PS's ( heard in evidence by Craddock in PS's testimony )

14:26 : PS called FGM house from his mobile

16:36 : PS call to Casino hospital
 
passball said:
Does anyone know what Peter the truckie said when he rang the radio show?
Was it because he saw the lady that did the u turn and parked in front of his truck?
Did he see her at the op shop before of after that?
Click to expand...
www.2gb.com

Ray Hadley: Desperate search for missing boy

Superintendent Paul Fehon, gives an update on the search for three-year-old William Tyrell,…
www.2gb.com www.2gb.com

The clip of Peter, talking to 2GB soon after William disappeared.
 
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