Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[31550]

Child safety should have removed FD from care at age 2 when they saw the fosters had locked her out of the house as punishment.

If they did, maybe William would still be alive. IMO

If they never placed either of them with the fosters he'd still be alive IMO

 

[31550]

William & his sister had long term care orders in place ie until 18yrs old (my bold).

That didn't work out for any one then.

Yes I'd be interested to see the case and reasoning behind a judge granting such long term immutable orders instead of the normal interim, then short term placement, counselling, rehab etc. Were any other options considered and why not? Note that William's mother went on to care for other children without any getting lost forever.

 

[passball]

No, it was not a true surprise but they came up a day earlier.

Yes I know but the way they said it sounded like it was going to be a complete surprise to FGM they were going to go at all.

Had FMs sister planned to come up that weekend to see her mum,
before William went missing?

We know she did, the FM picked her up and then on that trip the 2 cars were suddenly remembered.

 

[LRitz]

This is from The Australian in April 2022, regarding the charges against Spedding.

".....Called to give evidence about his handling of the child sex assault case against Mr Spedding, Detective Brennan spent a second day giving evidence on Friday. ...The court was told a key witness in the case, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, told police in 2016 that the allegations against Mr Speeding were false before he was charged"....

So who was the witness that could not be identified for legal reasons? And how did this witness know about the historic allegations. If it was a local police you would think they could name them or refer to their role. The only person who comes to mind that lived in the area and may have been aware of the historic allegations and cannot be identified is the FGM. But why would she be involved in the charging of Spedding?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/oversight-william-tyrrell-cops-candid-admission-in-court/news-story/fa9512b13f0827019aef813ca298d0cc

 

[passball]

I would like to know if the FPs personally knew the people/person that helped them foster William and his sister.
Also, which person asked the office cat woman to start the campaign.
Was that person in a media position to start the narrative of the FPs?

On a different matter, I heard a snippet in the Dan Box podcast where he was talking to Ben.
Ben said he had taken a selfie with William for William's 'scrapbook'. Don't think he used that word but a similar meaning.

Is this selfie allowed?

 

[passball]

Are you saying there was a pattern of abuse? You’re predicting there would have been more to come if the kids weren’t removed.

That's a no brainer

 

[Sammy 72]

In the FPs NSW Police Interview they said it was a surprise visit.
Not only a surprise visit for the kids but also for the FGM.
They said they had planned to leave on the Friday morning.
Was the trip, regardless of what day they left going to be a surprise trip for FGM.
Did they not tell the FGM they were coming at all and just intended to rock up?
SURPRISE.

https://www.kidspot.com.au/news/william-tyrrells-foster-mum-reveals-her-version-of-what-happened/news-story/ac7c822d4a602edcd582c8f614856c1c

 

[LRitz]

Yes I know but the way they said it sounded like it was going to be a complete surprise to FGM they were going to go at all.

Had FMs sister planned to come up that weekend to see her mum,
before William went missing?

We know she did, the FM picked her up and then on that trip the 2 cars were suddenly remembered.

No not a complete surprise as Wallace52 has said. FGM knew they were coming. The alleged reason for the trip was that the FGM was soon to sell her house and the FM was to help. Also while they were visiting they were allegedly planning to visit the cemetery where the husband of the FGM was buried. (Fun family outing for the kids ). I do not know if they ever got to go to the cemetery in the end. The fosters say because of work changes they could leave earlier on Thursday afternoon rather than drive on Friday. But FF had one work call booked for Friday at 9:30 am and decided he could do it while in Kendall. So that is why he had a trip Friday morning to Lakewood, about 9 minutes away with a shopping area and pharmacy, for better phone connection. The drawing they are doing in the photo, is making cards for the husband of FGM to take to the cemetery. Though IMO, a child of 3 would have no memory of someone he saw infrequently and had died some 6 months before ,IMO.

The FGM must have been somewhat prepared as there was plenty of food for that morning breakfast. The only thing she asked FF to pick up was the paper, (even though she had been into Kendall herself on Thursday, but must have forgotten this).

I don't know if the sister of the FM was meant to come. I thought she came only after William disappeared. I assumed it was to give support and help the FGM, but i don't know.

So the surprise was they rang FGM early Thursday evening to say they had left Sydney and would be there Thursday after dark. (Refer FGM walkthrough - words to the effect: FM rang me.... FM said not to worry she would do everything).The plans were changed on that day. They had to take the cats to the cattery, and they had not been booked in.

So the thing is, no one knew William would be there that morning. Even the FGM did not know, so she could not have told anyone, unless she contacted them after 5 pm. The neighbours would not have known, Mr Spedding would not have known, The man in the u-turn car would not have known.The people at the Kendall community centre would not have known. No one could have anticipated that William at around 10 am on Friday would be FGM' house let alone in the front yard.

I have excluded the staff at the preschool and the cattery as i don't think they would have known were Benaroon Dr was.

 

[shorsky]

That's interesting. Thank you..I had thought the thread covered that in part 1 and concluded no for some reason.

If FGM had car they should have been able to determine where it went. GPS location.

I don’t know what model or year FGM’s car was, so it’s still possible hers did not have GPS

 

[Angry Red Bull]

All details pertaining to this daughter are very likely subject to a NPO. So it's going to be difficult to determine her involvement if any in this case.

The one thing we do know is that it is entirely consistent with FGM account ( per GJ). Given we have her full walk through I guess you can draw parallels.

I don’t know what model or year FGM’s car was, so it’s still possible hers did not have GPS

31550 said 2009 and it didn't. That's what I recall from Part 1 .....it didn't

 

[shorsky]

I believe he referred to 'the other daughter' which would be FM sister. Apparently it came out she had been at Kendall ex Sydney during that leadup week.

I always considered she may have paid a visit to Kendall to put her name on some of her deceased father's artefacts after hearing her sister was going to Kendall to help their mother sort through household things ready for the family divide up after the issuing of property sale contracts which were due to be signed the week commencing the 8 Sept according to what FM stated in March 2015.

Does anyone know how many sisters FM has ?

She picked one up from airport a day after (?) William went missing.

If ‘another daughter’ was there on the Thursday, perhaps she drove FGM around on her errands.

 

[passball]

No not a complete surprise as Wallace52 has said. FGM knew they were coming. The alleged reason for the trip was that the FGM was soon to sell her house and the FM was to help. Also while they were visiting they were allegedly planning to visit the cemetery where the husband of the FGM was buried. (Fun family outing for the kids ). I do not know if they ever got to go to the cemetery in the end. The fosters say because of work changes they could leave earlier on Thursday afternoon rather than drive on Friday. But FF had one work call booked for Friday at 9:30 am and decided he could do it while in Kendall. So that is why he had a trip Friday morning to Lakewood, about 9 minutes away with a shopping area and pharmacy, for better phone connection. The drawing they are doing in the photo, is making cards for the husband of FGM to take to the cemetery. Though IMO, a child of 3 would have no memory of someone he saw infrequently and had died some 6 months before ,IMO.

The FGM must have been somewhat prepared as there was plenty of food for that morning breakfast. The only thing she asked FF to pick up was the paper, (even though she had been into Kendall herself on Thursday, but must have forgotten this).

I don't know if the sister of the FM was meant to come. I thought she came only after William disappeared. I assumed it was to give support and help the FGM, but i don't know.

So the surprise was they rang FGM early Thursday evening to say they had left Sydney and would be there Thursday after dark. (Refer FGM walkthrough - words to the effect: FM rang me.... FM said not to worry she would do everything).The plans were changed on that day. They had to take the cats to the cattery, and they had not been booked in.

So the thing is, no one knew William would be there that morning. Even the FGM did not know, so she could not have told anyone, unless she contacted them after 5 pm. The neighbours would not have known, Mr Spedding would not have known, The man in the u-turn car would not have known.The people at the Kendall community centre would not have known. No one could have anticipated that William at around 10 am on Friday would be FGM' house let alone in the front yard.

I have excluded the staff at the preschool and the cattery as i don't think they would have known were Benaroon Dr was.

Surely Ben would have known they were leaving Thursday.
Would they not be required to tell him about their trips and/or changed plans?

Also, they must have been in contact with Ben to discuss the adoption stuff, which I big deal, that was happening the next day.

 

[31550]

This is from The Australian in April 2022, regarding the charges against Spedding.

".....Called to give evidence about his handling of the child sex assault case against Mr Spedding, Detective Brennan spent a second day giving evidence on Friday. ...The court was told a key witness in the case, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, told police in 2016 that the allegations against Mr Speeding were false before he was charged"....

So who was the witness that could not be identified for legal reasons? And how did this witness know about the historic allegations. If it was a local police you would think they could name them or refer to their role. The only person who comes to mind that lived in the area and may have been aware of the historic allegations and cannot be identified is the FGM. But why would she be involved in the charging of Spedding?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/oversight-william-tyrrell-cops-candid-admission-in-court/news-story/fa9512b13f0827019aef813ca298d0cc

What makes you think the witness who couldn't be named was not one of the alleged victims who later recanted their allegations of abuse against Spedding?

 

[31550]

The one thing we do know is that it is entirely consistent with FGM account ( per GJ). Given we have her full walk through I guess you can draw parallels.

31550 said 2009 and it didn't. That's what I recall from Part 1 .....it didn't

That is my understanding. Please don't say I stated this as fact or the forum will tear me a new one!

 

[31550]

Surely Ben would have known they were leaving Thursday.
Would they not be required to tell him about their trips and/or changed plans?

Also, they must have been in contact with Ben to discuss the adoption stuff, which I big deal, that was happening the next day.

Not really sure about that. I think they may have got a 'blanket' approval to visit the FGM property. They had been there before, so to save paperwork they may have just told FACS "we go up there from time to time", and FACS might have OK'd it.

(I know this sort of thing happens - we had a van in a caravan park, and only had to tell the Dept once about it for a child we had in log-term care) - yes it was in a different State and a long time ago - just a 'for example'.

With respect to THIS visit, I don't believe the FM told the FGM they were coming up early (i.e. the Thursday night instead of Friday afternoon as planned) until around 5pm on the Thursday when they were already well on their way. The FM telephone records show this call, but no others to the the FGM that day. This might have been somewhat of a surprise to the FGM - too late to go shopping or get bedrooms ready maybe? Maybe she even had to kick out a houseguest who was going to stay the night? Maybe even the other daughter?

 

[shorsky]

Not providing a child with basic essentials; this could include not providing food.

William should have been under better protection from FACS. With recent significant bruise to his face, that had to be reported to FACS, and losing weight (at least suspected by bio mother , and mother's intuition should not be ignored), and fosters saying they were not coping.....but nothing done. And here we are 10 years later.
Photo comparison. i do not know date of photo below. i think IMO, Willian looks nearly like a different child, less well, thinner, and not happy in the roar photoView attachment 2168930 .

Different ages is my belief

 

[LRitz]

What makes you think the witness who couldn't be named was not one of the alleged victims who later recanted their allegations of abuse against Spedding?

Hadn't thought of that. That would explain it.

 

[31550]

Different ages is my belief

Yes there is a big age difference. William certainly looks less healthy in the later photo.
Kids go through periods of health and sickness - that is normal.
I guess it would be interesting to see photos of his sister at similar times to see if she did the same. There would be alarm bells for me if both kids health declined over the same period of time.
I note that William's real mother raised concerns about his health - said he looked too skinny for example.
I wonder if this applied to both kids or just William?

 

[LRitz]

Different ages is my belief

Yes the Photo of William is younger, and I do not know by how much.

But I can't help thinking IMO that his face looks thin for a preschooler. He's still only 3, and I don't think, IMO, he looks very happy. He is not smiling. He seems to have bags under his eyes. Ok a bit older but looks like a different child. Again all IMO.
Just my observations. A photo we have all seen many times.

Edit: I am not saying he is a different child. I'm just saying that something has changed for that chubby kid to now look different.

 

[Wallace52]

I would like to know if the FPs personally knew the people/person that helped them foster William and his sister.
Also, which person asked the office cat woman to start the campaign.
Was that person in a media position to start the narrative of the FPs?

On a different matter, I heard a snippet in the Dan Box podcast where he was talking to Ben.
Ben said he had taken a selfie with William for William's 'scrapbook'. Don't think he used that word but a similar meaning.

Is this selfie allowed?

Ben thought that taking a selfie of himself and William on his work mobile phone was fine.

I don’t know why he felt like he would want to insert himself into William’s scrapbook. Does he think he was a significant person in William’s life that he would want to remember forever?

It doesn’t seem very professional but maybe that’s what’s normal in FACS / DOCS??

Edit / see below:


Ben Atwood:
“I can't recall if the word pedophile was used, but there was certainly some suspicion, I think.

This is Ben Atwood. He was William's case worker, meaning he worked with the birth and the foster families, overseeing William's foster placement, trying to get the best for William.

Look, I can understand why they'd ask, because it's not normal that you take photos of a child that's not yours and have them on your phone.

Dan Box:
Ben gave evidence in court about William's disappearance, and he became a target for online abuse.


Ben Atwoood:
It is normal in the sense that that was a protocol that we had. We were issued with a work phone, with a camera, because part of the purpose of our visits was to document your ordinary moments. So that when William turned 18 and got his file, he would have not just case notes, which are legally necessary and tell the story of his care, but he would have just images of himself being a kid and having a normal life.

That was the purpose for which I took images of William, whether it was pictures of him with his birth mom and dad at contact or whether it[…]”

From Witness: William Tyrrell: Mistaken | 1, 8 Oct 2024

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[31550]

I would like to know if the FPs personally knew the people/person that helped them foster William and his sister.

It's a good question. We might also ask whether strings were pulled or corners cut to make this happen.
Was this the best available foster situation? Two over-50s with no parenting experience whatsoever, limited training or accreditation. Why 2 very young children at once and why so quick to move to adoption? Surely this is not normal practice?
I'm sure there would be other carers with better skills and experience more suited to looking after 2 very young children - perhaps a younger couple with one or more older children who could provide a more socially familiar environment, who understood the needs and demands of toddlers?
Or was it just a mad rush to get them off the books and satisfy the demands of an entitled couple who thought having a couple of foster kids would make them look good?
There were possibly also other desperate young couples on the long adoption waiting lists who would have loved to adopt William and his sister should the opportunity have arisen. How did the fosters jump to the front of this particular queue?

 

[Poppy Penny]

My understanding is that there was abuse recorded by FM (washing, putrid, phone call to friend about breaking FD then other recordings then FF calling FD ‘c___’ and driving erratically following this.
It’s my opinion FD should have been removed when they were first aware of the abuse. FD was a child in state care and any signs of abuse should have been dealt with swiftly.
FD was left in care and subjected to more abuse. It makes no sense and was inappropriate. IMOO.
Edit, sorry and just want to add, FO were under surveillance for suspected disposing of FD’s brother.

Oh the irony of FF calling FD a ‘a lazy c…’. So that makes FM a bigger ‘lazy c…’ for not washing FD clothes and then calling her putrid?’
You both must be so proud .
And fancy trying to deflect blame about bruising on a horse riding fall.
So desperate.
So very grateful FD is free from these monsters. And we all will keep fighting for justice for William.

 

[Poppy Penny]

It's a good question. We might also ask whether strings were pulled or corners cut to make this happen.
Was this the best available foster situation? Two over-50s with no parenting experience whatsoever, limited training or accreditation. Why 2 very young children at once and why so quick to move to adoption? Surely this is not normal practice?
I'm sure there would be other carers with better skills and experience more suited to looking after 2 very young children - perhaps a younger couple with one or more older children who could provide a more socially familiar environment, who understood the needs and demands of toddlers?
Or was it just a mad rush to get them off the books and satisfy the demands of an entitled couple who thought having a couple of foster kids would make them look good?
There were possibly also other desperate young couples on the long adoption waiting lists who would have loved to adopt William and his sister should the opportunity have arisen. How did the fosters jump to the front of this particular queue?

I agree 100%. I have read Michelle White was the link due to an association or friendship with FM sister? Still puzzled why Michele White spent 9 days at Kendall after William’s disappearance?

 

[js47]

William’s weight: if you look at the photo of the Bio parents with William and Sister having a picnic you will see:-
Sister in green dress is sitting on her Mums lap she is four and looks a lot older and a lot healthier.(bigger)
William is with his father he is 3 he looks a lot smaller .
There is also another child?

 

[stormbird]

The Dan Box podcast shouldn't have been allowed to proceed IMO through the Coroner's inquiry's last tranche and before the DPP has delivered their decision on the police brief.

Given public interest factors in to the decision, Box's podcast has the potential to further poison public discourse.

Kurve, IMO "in the public interest" means something like "for the greater good" - it's not referring to what the public is interested in. I don't have any legal training, so just based on what I've read: the decision about whether to prosecute has nothing to do with public discourse, chatter, or people going on and on and on about "narratives".

Or did you mean the podcast might result in a prejudiced jury if any charges ever go before a court?