Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse

[Kurve]

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Yeah I think they've lied or manipulated the facts.

What drew me more to a balcony fall was when the FM made effort to say William was afraid of going too high in a tree and said 'too high mummy, too high', as if she was aware the height from the balcony was a problem, the two of them shouldn't have been playing on it as too dangerous, we know they had been. And it's deceptive, entering from the backyard at ground level to the end of the balcony where the drop off is over ten metres. A kid could just keep running from ground level, reaching the end of the balcony within seconds and climb straight over the rails expecting to find the ground under the bottom rail, same as when they jumped on to the balcony in the backyard.

If an opportunistic predator, I don't think it could be completely random. There were several primary school children living on Benaroon Drive, maybe someone had been casing the street with another target in mind and they just happened to stumble over William on the day ... seems unlikely but I hope all the neighbours with kids were questioned about any unusual activity, things going missing etc. Nobody would just drive up that street for absolutely no reason.

Yes I believe you can get insights like that. I have three problems with deadly accident

* why not report it? why instead hide the body? Genuine accident there is no crime. Did they abuse WT leaving physical evidence? That is the only explanation why they wouldn't report but still questionable to go that path. The other possibility is WT was chased by FM to punish him and jumped to death. Still no crime though.

* If it was an accident then I'd expect a consensus decision not a unilateral decision to hide

* They had limited time to hide a body. Batar Cr Rd had cars at 41 per hour meaning in the time they dug a shallow grave about 10 cars went past and without detection.

 

[Kurve]

Yes I believe you can get insights like that. I have three problems with deadly accident

* why not report it? why instead hide the body? Genuine accident there is no crime. Did they abuse WT leaving physical evidence? That is the only explanation why they wouldn't report but still questionable to go that path. The other possibility is WT was chased by FM to punish him and jumped to death. Still no crime though.

* If it was an accident then I'd expect a consensus decision not a unilateral decision to hide

* They had limited time to hide a body. Batar Cr Rd had cars at 41 per hour meaning in the time they dug a shallow grave about 10 cars went past and without detection.

Basically, I have a bigger problem with an abduction in that setting, than I do an accident and a cover up. Not that I'm suggesting that's what they did, just that it's the most likely scenario of all the unlikely scenarios considered. imo.

 

[31550]

If an accident occurred at FGM home (e.g. balcony fall), is it possible FM moved the body to Batar Ck Rd so it would look like a vehicular hit-and-run (with the alibi that William may have wandered on to the road looking for FF). She would have expected someone to find the body. But maybe someone ran over the body, and then panicked thinking THEY had killed William, so picked him up and transported him elsewhere?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

If an accident occurred at FGM home (e.g. balcony fall), is it possible FM moved the body to Batar Ck Rd so it would look like a vehicular hit-and-run (with the alibi that William may have wandered on to the road looking for FF). She would have expected someone to find the body. But maybe someone ran over the body, and then panicked thinking THEY had killed William, so picked him up and transported him elsewhere?

Imo no it's not possible

They are dysfunctional parents but they were prepared to adopt meaning they LOVED WT. It would be emotionally impossible to process a death in a couple of minutes and then place a dead body that was WT whom you loved on the road to be mutilated by random car hits. Clear straight lines in sight on the road says no too. if they took body away they must have buried it in shallow grave but that means approx 10 cars (per the traffic analysis) drove past whilst they were doing that and didn't see it

I suspect police had come to same conclusion about being seen. That's why when they came back they investigated water locations. Dropping a child in a water location without burial takes a minute. Immediately hidden.

But an accident causing death should have left some blood evidence in car but didn't

 

[Angry Red Bull]

if there was accidental death imo there must have been some contributory negligence involved to motivate FM to hide body.

Eg WT does something naughty. FM smacks but he takes off her chasing along the balcony jumps to death. If the body was then hidden it must have been Somewhere like Cobb and Co Rd not Batar Cr Rd. Too busy there (thanks stormbird).

I don't know if she had enough time to drive there and return.

 

[Lady O]

if there was accidental death imo there must have been some contributory negligence involved to motivate FM to hide body.

Eg WT does something naughty. FM smacks but he takes off her chasing along the balcony jumps to death. If the body was then hidden it must have been Somewhere like Cobb and Co Rd not Batar Cr Rd. Too busy there (thanks stormbird).

I don't know if she had enough time to drive there and return.

The problem I have with the "fall from the balcony accident" is that it would not have been possible for LT and FGM not to have known about it.

I really can't imagine them both keeping stumm through the search and all that happened afterwards.

That is why, if an accident, I lean more towards an accident, while riding his bike along the lower driveway, and a fall from the retaining wall. Although not as high as the balcony, a fall where he landed upside down (due to the training wheels on the bike) would be potentially fatal. It could have been kept from LT & FGM as they were around the back of the house and unaware.

 

[BFew]

That is why, if an accident, I lean more towards an accident, while riding his bike along the lower driveway, and a fall from the retaining wall. Although not as high as the balcony, a fall where he landed upside down (due to the training wheels on the bike) would be potentially fatal. It could have been kept from LT & FGM as they were around the back of the house and unaware.

Particularly as the FM possibly gaslighted William, when telling Police that William deliberately crashed his bike that morning.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The problem I have with the "fall from the balcony accident" is that it would not have been possible for LT and FGM not to have known about it.

I really can't imagine them both keeping stumm through the search and all that happened afterwards.

That is why, if an accident, I lean more towards an accident, while riding his bike along the lower driveway, and a fall from the retaining wall. Although not as high as the balcony, a fall where he landed upside down (due to the training wheels on the bike) would be potentially fatal. It could have been kept from LT & FGM as they were around the back of the house and unaware.

For an accidental death then it must have all of the following:

* Sufficient to kill and clearly. A head strike often causes unconsciousness first then death from brain bleed swelling afterwards. How would she know difference in minutes? Broken neck?

* Sufficiently obscure to avoid detection awareness by LT

* Contributory negligence to motivate FM to hide body.

* Enough time to remove and hide body on Cobb & Co Rd and return. Batar Cr Rd too busy (thanks stormbird). The trip is 1.5 klm and 3 mins one way

* No blood for police dogs

 

[Lady O]

For an accidental death then it must have all of the following:

* Sufficient to kill and clearly. A head strike often causes unconsciousness first then death from brain bleed swelling afterwards. How would she know difference in minutes? Broken neck?

* Sufficiently obscure to avoid detection awareness by LT

* Contributory negligence to motivate FM to hide body.

* Enough time to remove and hide body on Cobb & Co Rd and return. Batar Cr Rd too busy (thanks stormbird). The trip is 1.5 klm and 3 mins one way

* No blood for police dogs

The lower driveway has a retaining wall, near to the house, looks almost 2mtrs high, going by comparison to the Police working beside it. The photo was taken from on top of the retaining wall and the bird bath (marked in the picture) is on the highest side next to the edge. The ground beside the retaining wall drops off sharply towards the yard and reduces in height towards the road. It appears that there were quite a few leafy shrubs and other vegetation/fallen branches etc, along the edge as well as quite a few large rocks.

As to cause of death, one could easily imagine WT riding his bike around on the upper and then onto the lower driveways. The little bike had trainer wheels and if he rode too close to the edge of the retaining wall and one of the trainer wheels dropped off the edge, the bike would invert and quite possibly WT could have landed on his head and even onto a rock.

As this area is quite obscure from the side, front and back of the house, it's possible he would have only seen him when FM went looking after he failed to appear. In the photo below, it appears the Police have cleared up some of the vegetation during their search. If a rock was involved, then it is possible that was picked that up and removed with the body. Either way, unless the dog was directed to that area, he would not have picked up the blood, although apparently he did detect WT's scent on the lower driveway.

Batar Ck rd is only 1km away and FGM's car was in the upper driveway. Quite possibly, the body could have been placed on a handy tarp or in a garden refuse bag.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The lower driveway has a retaining wall, near to the house, looks almost 2mtrs high, going by comparison to the Police working beside it. The photo was taken from on top of the retaining wall and the bird bath (marked in the picture) is on the highest side next to the edge. The ground beside the retaining wall drops off sharply towards the yard and reduces in height towards the road. It appears that there were quite a few leafy shrubs and other vegetation/fallen branches etc, along the edge as well as quite a few large rocks.

As to cause of death, one could easily imagine WT riding his bike around on the upper and then onto the lower driveways. The little bike had trainer wheels and if he rode too close to the edge of the retaining wall and one of the trainer wheels dropped off the edge, the bike would invert and quite possibly WT could have landed on his head and even onto a rock.

As this area is quite obscure from the side, front and back of the house, it's possible he would have only seen him when FM went looking after he failed to appear. In the photo below, it appears the Police have cleared up some of the vegetation during their search. If a rock was involved, then it is possible that was picked that up and removed with the body. Either way, unless the dog was directed to that area, he would not have picked up the blood, although apparently he did detect WT's scent on the lower driveway.

Batar Ck rd is only 1km away and FGM's car was in the upper driveway. Quite possibly, the body could have been placed on a handy tarp or in a garden refuse bag.

View attachment 1664002

Thank you for that. Appreciated.

The traffic analysis done suggests there are 41 vehicles per hour on Batar Cr Rd. I have grave reservations that a body could be hidden there with that frequency of traffic without being detected.

I therefore think that if hiding took place it must have been in Cobb & Co Rd. 1.5 klm and 3 min drive one way where there are bodies of water

 

[Lady O]

Thank you for that. Appreciated.

The traffic analysis done suggests there are 41 vehicles per hour on Batar Cr Rd. I have grave reservations that a body could be hidden there with that frequency of traffic without being detected.

I therefore think that if hiding took place it must have been in Cobb & Co Rd. 1.5 klm and 3 min drive one way where there is bodies of water

I think it was around those watercourses that the Police concentrated their search in November 2021. There was a siting of a woman in a car pulled up reported also around that time if I remember correctly.

 

[31550]

Not enough time to bury a body. Disposal in a waterway would have been detected. But what about a wheelie bin on the side of the road? Would have only taken a minute, and someone might have come along later and moved it without attracting much suspicion?

 

[Lady O]

Not enough time to bury a body. Disposal in a waterway would have been detected. But what about a wheelie bin on the side of the road? Would have only taken a minute, and someone might have come along later and moved it without attracting much suspicion?

I think it was expected he would be found. Away from the house and supposedly abducted and killed.

 

[stormbird]

An update on the case about the alleged aggravated sexual touching of a vulnerable person by Derek N, who was investigated and presumably ruled out by police in relation to William's disappearance:

---

News.com.au, 19 April 2023

Includes:

'...on August 1 last year [2022], the 89-year-old allegedly pulled up in a car and sparked conversation with a vulnerable 23-year-old man who had been riding a mountain bike.
Judge Sharon Harris said police facts allege Nichols invited him into his car to go for a drive, where he "made positive comments towards the complainant and said they were like long lost twins and had a special connection".
...
Nichols denies the allegations.
...
He is next due to face Downing Centre District Court next Wednesday [26 Apr 2023], where the matter will be listed for trial at Port Macquarie District Court either this December or early next year.'

---

Bolded by me. Nichols denies the allegations in the current case and I'm supposing his involvement was ruled out in William's case, but how was he ruled out? Does anybody know where he was and what he was doing when William went missing?

Posts #6,860 and #6,935 have links to previous media reports about the current case.

 

[31550]

An update on the case about the alleged aggravated sexual touching of a vulnerable person by Derek N, who was investigated and presumably ruled out by police in relation to William's disappearance:

---

News.com.au, 19 April 2023

Includes:

'...on August 1 last year [2022], the 89-year-old allegedly pulled up in a car and sparked conversation with a vulnerable 23-year-old man who had been riding a mountain bike.
Judge Sharon Harris said police facts allege Nichols invited him into his car to go for a drive, where he "made positive comments towards the complainant and said they were like long lost twins and had a special connection".
...
Nichols denies the allegations.
...
He is next due to face Downing Centre District Court next Wednesday [26 Apr 2023], where the matter will be listed for trial at Port Macquarie District Court either this December or early next year.'

---

Bolded by me. Nichols denies the allegations in the current case and I'm supposing his involvement was ruled out in William's case, but how was he ruled out? Does anybody know where he was and what he was doing when William went missing?

Posts #6,860 and #6,935 have links to previous media reports about the current case.

My understanding was that DN had an alibi - that he was in Dunbogan at the time of William's disappearance. Dunbogan is only 15 minutes from Kendall, so it's pretty likely this was corroborated by someone. (It would have been dumb to 'invent' an alibi which put him only 15 minutes away IMO). Perhaps there was some musical event in Dunbogan at the time?

 

[stormbird]

My understanding was that DN had an alibi - that he was in Dunbogan at the time of William's disappearance. Dunbogan is only 15 minutes from Kendall, so it's pretty likely this was corroborated by someone. (It would have been dumb to 'invent' an alibi which put him only 15 minutes away IMO). Perhaps there was some musical event in Dunbogan at the time?

This is all I could find about his alibi:

Daily Telegraph, 2 Jan 2016, paywalled: "He said he was living in Dunbogan when William went missing and said he did not know anybody connected to the case."

Daily Telegraph, 13 Jan 2016, paywalled: "The alibi provided to police when questioned over William's suspected abduction was that he was living in Dunbogan on the day the child vanished without a trace in September 2014."

Gary Jubelin's I Catch Killers, p.264:
"There are dozens of known child offenders in the area...
there's Dunbogan, where one abuser says he was on the day that William disappeared.
This offender, a retired priest,..."

Caroline Overington's Missing William Tyrrell, p.167:
"[DN] said he was in Dunbogan when William disappeared. No evidence could be found to link him to the crime, and so detectives moved to the next names on the list."

Living in Dunbogan and/or in Dunbogan that day. No details about what he claimed to have been doing or specifically where, and nothing about how or whether police checked his story. The Daily Telegraph articles say that he was living in Kendall in May 2015, which is when police searched his house.

 

[31550]

This is all I could find about his alibi:

Daily Telegraph, 2 Jan 2016, paywalled: "He said he was living in Dunbogan when William went missing and said he did not know anybody connected to the case."

Daily Telegraph, 13 Jan 2016, paywalled: "The alibi provided to police when questioned over William's suspected abduction was that he was living in Dunbogan on the day the child vanished without a trace in September 2014."

Gary Jubelin's I Catch Killers, p.264:
"There are dozens of known child offenders in the area...
there's Dunbogan, where one abuser says he was on the day that William disappeared.
This offender, a retired priest,..."

Caroline Overington's Missing William Tyrrell, p.167:
"[DN] said he was in Dunbogan when William disappeared. No evidence could be found to link him to the crime, and so detectives moved to the next names on the list."

Living in Dunbogan and/or in Dunbogan that day. No details about what he claimed to have been doing or specifically where, and nothing about how or whether police checked his story. The Daily Telegraph articles say that he was living in Kendall in May 2015, which is when police searched his house.

For DN to have been involved, he would have had to have foreknowledge of William's whereabouts. There is no way he would be in Benaroon Drive (15 minutes away) at exactly the right time by coincidence. This would have required some strong link between DN and FGM. More than just being in the same circles - it's a small and fairly close community. It's not clear whether DN had a vehicle and whether or not it was searched. But the only reason to suspect DN is his paedophilic background. He would certainly be worthy of questioning, but there doesn't seem to be anything else connecting him to William. At least no more than any other potential paedophile living in or visiting the area at the time.

 

[insanity]

If you were going to be staying 10 minutes from Benaroon Drive would you go check it out? Asking for a friend.

 

[stormbird]

If you were going to be staying 10 minutes from Benaroon Drive would you go check it out? Asking for a friend.

I've often wondered about this and haven't ever been able to decide whether I would go there or not. On one hand it seems like a weird or rude thing to do, considering the people who live there and how they might feel about strangers gawping at them just because someone went missing nearby. On the other hand it would be great to get a feel for the place - the distances and the slope of the hills and whether sound can carry and how far you can see, etc. There might be information about the case or its context that can only be understood by being there in person.

 

[stormbird]

The OneDrive link to FFC's witness statement of 17 March 2015 is currently returning an error saying "This item might not exist or is no longer available" (post 7,341). Does anybody know whether the file has actually gone?

 

[stormbird]

The OneDrive link to FFC's witness statement of 17 March 2015 is currently returning an error saying "This item might not exist or is no longer available" (post 7,341). Does anybody know whether the file has actually gone?

There's been no answer to my earlier question yet, so I'll just go ahead with this and hope it's ok to refer to FM's witness statement of 17 March 2015:

When describing what they did when arriving at Heatherbrae McDonald's, in paragraph 57 FM says: "we parked the car in the cars with trailers parking section"...

But why did they park in the "cars with trailers" parking section? Was there an explanation in any of their other statements?

Were they towing a trailer? Or were they not towing a trailer but had some other reason for parking in that area? Obviously the parking itself has nothing to do with William going missing, but maybe there's something that could lead to more relevant information? MOO

 

[31550]

There's been no answer to my earlier question yet, so I'll just go ahead with this and hope it's ok to refer to FM's witness statement of 17 March 2015:

When describing what they did when arriving at Heatherbrae McDonald's, in paragraph 57 FM says: "we parked the car in the cars with trailers parking section"...

But why did they park in the "cars with trailers" parking section? Was there an explanation in any of their other statements?

Were they towing a trailer? Or were they not towing a trailer but had some other reason for parking in that area? Obviously the parking itself has nothing to do with William going missing, but maybe there's something that could lead to more relevant information? MOO

I have never seen it investigated, but I think unlikely they were towing a trailer. Did they even own a trailer? Where did they put it when they got to Kendall? No trailer in any photos. CCTV on highway would have shown the trailer.

Why did FM say they parked in the trailer section? Maybe they did so because the remainder of the car park was full, or maybe they were just lazy, entitled people? Maybe it was said to provide more detail to the statement in case another witness saw their car parked at McDonalds and could corroborate the trip? Maybe it was just part of a detailed narrative? Maybe the CCTV cameras in McDonalds were pointed at that section of the car park? (Or NOT?) Or maybe it's just a useless piece of additional information provided by FM (like the 'tree climbing' story). MAybe it happened, and maybe it didn't, but it doesn't seem to shed any light on the case.

 

[stormbird]

I have never seen it investigated, but I think unlikely they were towing a trailer. Did they even own a trailer? Where did they put it when they got to Kendall? No trailer in any photos. CCTV on highway would have shown the trailer.

Why did FM say they parked in the trailer section? Maybe they did so because the remainder of the car park was full, or maybe they were just lazy, entitled people? Maybe it was said to provide more detail to the statement in case another witness saw their car parked at McDonalds and could corroborate the trip? Maybe it was just part of a detailed narrative? Maybe the CCTV cameras in McDonalds were pointed at that section of the car park? (Or NOT?) Or maybe it's just a useless piece of additional information provided by FM (like the 'tree climbing' story). MAybe it happened, and maybe it didn't, but it doesn't seem to shed any light on the case.

There are lots of reasons they might have parked where they did but unless they've said what their reasons were then there's no way for us to know what was going on. If a trailer hasn't been mentioned in any other statement then I suppose that means they either weren't towing one or the police didn't question them about it.

As far as I've seen, there were no photos of a trailer at FGM's in 2014, but there were no photos of the foster family's vehicles either. I think we weren't told anything about the FF/FM vehicle until the inquest in 2019, and FGM's car when police seized it in 2021.

FM's statement (paragraphs 51 and 52) says they stopped at two service stations before leaving Sydney on the Thursday. She thought that one stop was for fuel (diesel) and the other for food and drink. Some service stations have trailers for hire, so hypothetically if they had wanted to take a trailer to FGM's they might have hired one on the way.

One reason they might have wanted a box-type trailer: they were planning to help FGM sort out which of her possessions she wanted to get rid of, and FF had offered to help sell things online (paragraph 35). Maybe the plan was to carry the unwanted things back to Sydney?

Or FF might have owned or had access to a bike trailer: he'd previously ridden a trail bike in Kendall State Forest (News.com.au, 27 March 2019) so if that was a motorised bike (which is what "trail bike" means to me), if it was his own bike and usually kept in Sydney then he might have needed a trailer to transport it for their weekends at FGM's. MOO

 

[31550]

There are lots of reasons they might have parked where they did but unless they've said what their reasons were then there's no way for us to know what was going on. If a trailer hasn't been mentioned in any other statement then I suppose that means they either weren't towing one or the police didn't question them about it.

As far as I've seen, there were no photos of a trailer at FGM's in 2014, but there were no photos of the foster family's vehicles either. I think we weren't told anything about the FF/FM vehicle until the inquest in 2019, and FGM's car when police seized it in 2021.

FM's statement (paragraphs 51 and 52) says they stopped at two service stations before leaving Sydney on the Thursday. She thought that one stop was for fuel (diesel) and the other for food and drink. Some service stations have trailers for hire, so hypothetically if they had wanted to take a trailer to FGM's they might have hired one on the way.

One reason they might have wanted a box-type trailer: they were planning to help FGM sort out which of her possessions she wanted to get rid of, and FF had offered to help sell things online (paragraph 35). Maybe the plan was to carry the unwanted things back to Sydney?

Or FF might have owned or had access to a bike trailer: he'd previously ridden a trail bike in Kendall State Forest (News.com.au, 27 March 2019) so if that was a motorised bike (which is what "trail bike" means to me), if it was his own bike and usually kept in Sydney then he might have needed a trailer to transport it for their weekends at FGM's. MOO

I'm not sure where a trailer fits in to the various theories.
There were never any reports or photos of a trailer of any kind on the property at the time. Nor a trail bike. Where and when could FF have unhitched and hidden a trailer and his trail bike? We have seen photos of the property, and the carport where the kids bikes were stored. He didn't take a trailer in the morning, so it must have been unhitched at FGMs place?

If they had hired a trailer, wouldn't it have been evident from credit card and service station records? Usually ID is required to hire a trailer. When was it returned? Surely the police would have uncovered this evidence by now?

 

[stormbird]

I'm not sure where a trailer fits in to the various theories.
There were never any reports or photos of a trailer of any kind on the property at the time. Nor a trail bike. Where and when could FF have unhitched and hidden a trailer and his trail bike? We have seen photos of the property, and the carport where the kids bikes were stored. He didn't take a trailer in the morning, so it must have been unhitched at FGMs place?

If they had hired a trailer, wouldn't it have been evident from credit card and service station records? Usually ID is required to hire a trailer. When was it returned? Surely the police would have uncovered this evidence by now?

31550, do you know FF didn't take a trailer in the morning? (If so, how?)

There would have been plenty of room to unhitch and park a trailer at FGM's and no need to hide it. The photos I've seen from the first week at FGM's don't show the entire area around the carport or driveways or anywhere else, but if you know of some that do then please show them. IMO most of the house and block was either not photographed or not shown to us the public. If there was a trailer, or trail bike, or anything else parked at FGM's they might have been in full view of everybody who was there - not hidden, not secret, just given no publicity via news reports or photos and inquest testimony.

I don't care about theories, I want to know what the facts are. Did they take a trailer or didn't they? It seems that nobody here knows.