Division 3 - 2015

[Chazz M Michaels]

Not sure if this article has been posted - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...s-radical-change/story-fnglemo4-1227200951318

If the move was adopted, the current Division 1 to Division 4 system would be scrapped in favour of four regionalised divisions — Division 1 South-Central, Division 1 North-Central, Division 2 South-Central and Division 2 North-Central.

The new structure would be implemented for the 2016 season should it be given the go-ahead.

Minimising travel, assisting recruiting efforts and increasing local rivalries are among the positives a regionalised structure could deliver.

“We’ve always operated on a vertical system and as the competition has grown it has just grown vertically,” Sholly said.

“We’re the only competition that’s over metropolitan Melbourne, so we range from a club in South Mornington to a club in Werribee. It’s a fair geographical spread.

“As Melbourne expands, we need to give clubs and maybe future clubs that opportunity if they wish to play in an amateur competition.”

 

[local footy fan]

I think you forget that players need to find their level also. The Divisions provides players with an opportunity to play at their appropriate level. Combining the levels could make some players feel out of their depth and will probably lose them to competitive football.
I know of quite a few players who play at a D3 club because they are able to play in the 1s and can compete with their opponents. They have come down from the higher grades because it was just too good for them.

just a quick question regarding these player you mention are they the older aged players if so then this is not a long term good thing in my humble opinion you need to attract the younger blokes so as a club you can grow and improve. sure you need players around the 25/30 age group but you still need the young guys who are hungry for a game in the ones to put pressure on the whole senior team for spots

 

[table tennis]

Not sure if this article has been posted - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...s-radical-change/story-fnglemo4-1227200951318

Scholly is a smart man.

Why is the VAFA growing year after year, if what they were offering wasn't suitable already????

 

[Mounzer11]

So these players don't want to play reserves in say a D1 or Premier C competition with the hope of improving themselves?

You might find the reverse applies, where a player may not wish to play in at a D3/D4 club because they are in that division so goes and plays D1/PremC reserves trying to push for senior selection.

Chazz, not everyone wants to be the best they can be. Not everyone strives to improve.
Sometimes players just want to find the right level so they can play in the seniors.
Isn't that what VAFA football is about?
I recall having a conversation from
a bloke who played at Fitzroy. He said that early on, when they were in the lower grades, they would get a cast of thousands to preseason as they were at a level accessible to most players. As they got to C and B, the numbers started dropping off as the requirements and standards were getting higher and higher.
Not everyone has aspirations to be an A grade (or even C Grade) senior player. Why create a structure where they have to play out of their depth.

 

[table tennis]

I still am yet to find a real reason for what is wrong with current structure

 

[bigwaz]

Its too deep table tennis. A few years ago they were thinking of starting a d5. Would you want your team pushed back to d5 to make up the numbers?

 

[table tennis]

Its too deep table tennis. A few years ago they were thinking of starting a d5. Would you want your team pushed back to d5 to make up the numbers?

If that is where we sit then fine.if we were good enough then we would have the opportunity to move out of that grade

 

[Chazz M Michaels]

Chazz, not everyone wants to be the best they can be. Not everyone strives to improve.
Sometimes players just want to find the right level so they can play in the seniors.
Isn't that what VAFA football is about?
I recall having a conversation from
a bloke who played at Fitzroy. He said that early on, when they were in the lower grades, they would get a cast of thousands to preseason as they were at a level accessible to most players. As they got to C and B, the numbers started dropping off as the requirements and standards were getting higher and higher.
Not everyone has aspirations to be an A grade (or even C Grade) senior player. Why create a structure where they have to play out of their depth.

"Not everyone wants to be the best they can be" - So why don't they just play reserves or clubbies at any club going around?
This argument could go on for a while, about how some players want to be flat track bullies where they can be a star in D4 seniors without having to put much effort into training or commitments rather than having to earn their spot in a seniors at a higher level - But maybe this is one of the reasons why some clubs stay down in the lower grades, because they have people at their club looking taking the easy road, in which case they aren't going to go anywhere anyway.

If they go with the D1/2 North-Central and D1/2 South-Central setup, I don't think the demands in the D2 sections will be that great to drive players away, as I'd envisage it being on par with current D3/D4 standards.

But if a club, as opposed to the players you mention, wishes to improve, move up through the grades and become bigger and better, then the avenue for this is much shorter and as a result they'd be able to attract better players and supporters to help achieve this, and hopefully rid themselves of the people that are happy to sit around in the doldrums and go no-where.

Remember that the club is greater than the individual Mounzer11, and I don't think you'll find a club committee that'll say they are happy to stay in the one division and go no-where... Well except for maybe Old Scotch...

 

[Mounzer11]

"Not everyone wants to be the best they can be" - So why don't they just play reserves or clubbies at any club going around?
This argument could go on for a while, about how some players want to be flat track bullies where they can be a star in D4 seniors without having to put much effort into training or commitments rather than having to earn their spot in a seniors at a higher level - But maybe this is one of the reasons why some clubs stay down in the lower grades, because they have people at their club looking taking the easy road, in which case they aren't going to go anywhere anyway.

If they go with the D1/2 North-Central and D1/2 South-Central setup, I don't think the demands in the D2 sections will be that great to drive players away, as I'd envisage it being on par with current D3/D4 standards.

But if a club, as opposed to the players you mention, wishes to improve, move up through the grades and become bigger and better, then the avenue for this is much shorter and as a result they'd be able to attract better players and supporters to help achieve this, and hopefully rid themselves of the people that are happy to sit around in the doldrums and go no-where.

Remember that the club is greater than the individual Mounzer11, and I don't think you'll find a club committee that'll say they are happy to stay in the one division and go no-where... Well except for maybe Old Scotch...

You makes some good points Chazz, but what is wrong with guys finding their level and enjoying playing at that level.
Some players could play in the 2s and a B Grade or C Grade club but would rather play in the firsts at a club - what is wrong with that? I know the VAFA were very concerned at the quality of players Xavs had running in their 3s and 4s and would rather them playing in the seniors in a lower grade.
Just because players opt to play in a lesser standard of football, doesn't mean they don't want to succeed.
Every club has to be realistic with their expectations as some clubs are never going to get to A Grade. And for some, I don't think they want to get there. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. I think this is what the very essence of what Ammo football is.

 

[Chazz M Michaels]

Scholly is a smart man.

Why is the VAFA growing year after year, if what they were offering wasn't suitable already????

Maybe it would grow faster if the structuring was better?

The VAFA is an attractive league for any club, the amateur status, family friendly features and football quality has resulted in a well known and well respected league - I'd say the fact that there is no localised divisions would turn off other clubs from joining and has, as a fact, resulted in clubs leaving the competition.

 

[Chazz M Michaels]

You makes some good points Chazz, but what is wrong with guys finding their level and enjoying playing at that level.
Some players could play in the 2s and a B Grade or C Grade club but would rather play in the firsts at a club - what is wrong with that? I know the VAFA were very concerned at the quality of players Xavs had running in their 3s and 4s and would rather them playing in the seniors in a lower grade.
Just because players opt to play in a lesser standard of football, doesn't mean they don't want to succeed.
Every club has to be realistic with their expectations as some clubs are never going to get to A Grade. And for some, I don't think they want to get there. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. I think this is what the very essence of what Ammo football is.

I understand players wanting to play senior football and not wanting to be stuck in the 2nd's, for what ever reason, but does that mean if the club strives to move up through the grades then those players will leave and go to a lower placed club? Do clubs wants these players around?

I don't believe having the region based system will make it a whole lot easier to get to the premier levels, but it'll make it appear easier - So if a club wishes to get there they can set themselves up for a big crack at it in just 2 years, rather than 4 years which is a hard thing to do to keep a core couple of players and administration around for.

Trying to attract players from a D2 SFL club to a D4 VAFA club would be hard, but if it was to a D2 South-Central club, this might be a little more attractive to potential recruits - Because, as you infer, players have a little bit of ego to them.

 

[bigwaz]

I'd be surprised if there was a committee whose number one goal wasn't winning a flag, this year or next. If someone belongs on a committee where this is not the case I'd like to hear about it.

 

[zeroseven]

Its too deep table tennis. A few years ago they were thinking of starting a d5. Would you want your team pushed back to d5 to make up the numbers?

no relevance what so ever - But would you want Rich Cent playing clubs above them all the time?

 

[zeroseven]

I understand players wanting to play senior football and not wanting to be stuck in the 2nd's, for what ever reason, but does that mean if the club strives to move up through the grades then those players will leave and go to a lower placed club? Do clubs wants these players around?

I don't believe having the region based system will make it a whole lot easier to get to the premier levels, but it'll make it appear easier - So if a club wishes to get there they can set themselves up for a big crack at it in just 2 years, rather than 4 years which is a hard thing to do to keep a core couple of players and administration around for.

Trying to attract players from a D2 SFL club to a D4 VAFA club would be hard, but if it was to a D2 South-Central club, this might be a little more attractive to potential recruits - Because, as you infer, players have a little bit of ego to them.

Parkside has now reentered the VAFA knowing the travel situation rather than play in a localised comp where they were non competitive in some aspects. As has been stated many times players want to play in a competitive standard and are generally happy to travel to do so. The 3 successful divisions of Clubbies based on ability rather than locality is testament to this.

Crap about players happy to play a few levels below what they might has no bearing on this regionalisation issue. Plenty of A grade players running around who could play VFL with more effort but guess what Chazz they are happy to stay and play!

 

[Bingle_21]

Not sure if this article has been posted - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...s-radical-change/story-fnglemo4-1227200951318

If the move was adopted, the current Division 1 to Division 4 system would be scrapped in favour of four regionalised divisions — Division 1 South-Central, Division 1 North-Central, Division 2 South-Central and Division 2 North-Central.

Why did they bother asking where the split/change should happen in the survey if its already been decided.

 

[trucka]

Maybe it would grow faster if the structuring was better?

The VAFA is an attractive league for any club, the amateur status, family friendly features and football quality has resulted in a well known and well respected league - I'd say the fact that there is no localised divisions would turn off other clubs from joining and has, as a fact, resulted in clubs leaving the competition.

Tell me, how many clubs have left comp in past 5/7 years for travel (don't include Rupetswood or Werribee, they were due to money). Then tell me how many have come into the comp.

 

[GoodFeller]

Seems like a knee jerk reaction to a few teams leaving.

People come to the VAFA to play competitive matches. and that's exactly what they get.

 

[2s Hack]

Tell me, how many clubs have left comp in past 5/7 years for travel (don't include Rupetswood or Werribee, they were due to money). Then tell me how many have come into the comp.

Banyule, Bentleigh, Southern Dragons

Although you state Rupertswood & Werribee should not be included due to money, I'd say they would be happier not traveling as far

 

[table tennis]

Maybe it would grow faster if the structuring was better?

The VAFA is an attractive league for any club, the amateur status, family friendly features and football quality has resulted in a well known and well respected league - I'd say the fact that there is no localised divisions would turn off other clubs from joining and has, as a fact, resulted in clubs leaving the competition.

At the detriment of the clubs that are currently involved

 

[Rooster 24]

Banyule, Bentleigh, Southern Dragons

Although you state Rupertswood & Werribee should not be included due to money, I'd say they would be happier not traveling as far

Banyule are on the record as saying that the main reason they left is that they were sick of developing players and then having them picked off by paying leagues – primarily the NFL. They felt the only way they could hang on to their players was to offer them $. Pretty much the same as Rupo and Werribee (although the travel for Rupo must have been excruciating). Parkside left for the same reason and are now back in the VAFA.

Southern Dragons – who knows? Have been a yo yo between the SFL and the VAFA for a few years now. You would not back against them moving comps again at some stage.

Bentleigh were certainly vocal in saying they left because of the travel however I think had they been good enough to consolidate in ‘C’ grade they might have stuck around due to proximity to more local clubs that tended to find themselves around that division.

 

[trucka]

Banyule, Bentleigh, Southern Dragons

Although you state Rupertswood & Werribee should not be included due to money, I'd say they would be happier not traveling as far

You mentioned the teams that left, but you forgot to mention the new clubs, Northern Blues, Masala, Point Cook, Parkside, Canterbury and Southern Dragons (they were new before they left).

Based on that, the number of new clubs out way the clubs that have left for travel. Therefore, travel is not an issue.

 

[bigwaz]

Travel is not an issue for the majority of the existing clubs. It is very likely an issue when trying to attract clubs from the peninsula or Western regions into the VAFA.

 

[zeroseven]

Travel is not an issue for the majority of the existing clubs. It is very likely an issue when trying to attract clubs from the peninsula or Western regions into the VAFA.

Peninsula Grammar has been in the VAFA for 30 odd years and coped with the travel. If clubs want to join they can.

 

[bigwaz]

Out of interest, how many old grammarian clubs play in paid comps in Melbourne?

 

[local footy fan]

Out of interest, how many old grammarian clubs play in paid comps in Melbourne?

none that I know of and all the strong grammarian sides are in Premier A,B,C . Parhran Assumption have stalled a bit but still likely to climb again in the next year or two