Rules Do we need a send off rule?

[Power Raid]

I think today's incident is the perfect example of why we need a send off rule in the AFL.

Taking nothing away from Geelong — they played well today — but I do find it really hard to stomach when one of their players intentionally takes out one of ours (arguably our most important) and then goes on to be best on ground.

I believe that any high bump or strike that is clearly intentional (not contesting the ball) and results in an opposition player being taken out of the game with concussion should result in the offender being sent off and their team having to play out the game with 21 players.

A few incidents come to mind that should have resulted in send offs:

• Dangerfield's hit on Jake Kelly last year
• Andrew Gaff's hit on Andy Brayshaw in 2018
• Steven May's hit on Stefan Martin in 2016
• Tyrone Vickery's hit on Dean Cox in 2014

I'm sure there are a few others too.

yes ABSOLUTELY

The game is now a place of employment and thus has to harmonise with not only societies standards but also employment law. Most notably criminal negligence resulting in death.

If you have an employee who assaults fellow staff, would it stand up in court to say if an employer said "I let him finish off the day, in the office"? of course not, so why would we think it is OK on the footy field.


Barry Hall and Lynch are just two clear cut examples of red cards and both should have faced criminal penalties.

 

[Power Raid]

The only time I would support a send off rule is a Barry Hall / Brett Staker type King hit.

if you were a director of the AFL and faced jail time, would you hold such a high hurdle?

imagine saying goodbye to your wife, kids and hello 6-10 years jail just because you took a risk on a turkey footballer

 

[Noidnadroj]

Tend to agree.
But need to clearly define what a football act is.

Stewart jumped off the ground away from the play and collected a defenseless player in the head concussing him.

I’m all for keeping Stewart on the field as the rules are now. Although I’m not sure I could hand on heart say Stewart’s play was a ‘football act’

But if the intent of the rule would be to get rid of gutless sniping acts that are highly likely to injure a player off the ball, I’m all for that. As long as the action is clear cut. We can’t bring in a rule like this for a bump on a player with the ball or a late spoil that hits the opponents head. Because of the way it could be adjudicated I don’t think it will ever come in.

The AFL brought in the ‘concussion/injury sub’ because they wanted to ensure fairness should a player be subbed out, making sure it remains 22 v 22. But in this instance of players being taken out of the game via reportable offences there’s seemingly no concern about fairness, it’s just ‘bad luck’. It doesn’t make any sense.


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[Noidnadroj]

I just think we have 36 players running around in all directions playing a contact sport, there is bound to be collisions. Do we stop the game for another video review? Just let it go, no need for a send-off rule. Stewart will get a penalty, he's remorseful for it and he did not intentionally go out to take Prestia out of the game. We have rules for it, let those rules take their course, one thing that worries me is the hysterics associated with it all. It's amazing to me that footy fans complain about the rules, they then want more rules when something happens not to their liking? I barrack for Geelong, it's annoying that he will be missing for at least 2 or 3 weeks, i accept that, but some people are out of control wanting some sort of crucifixion.

I think it’s as much about …. what if that was a Grand Final. The game would not have been won on its merits. If Prestia knocks out Stewart Richmond win the flag, but Stewart knocked out Prestia so Geelong do. Something not quite right about that…. it’s worth discussing the options BEFORE it happens in a big final or GF.





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[Noidnadroj]

Cotchin should have had a week for that. It had a significant influence on the outcome of the prelim.

We won by 6-goals (was 7-goals and GWS kicked a goal on the final siren). We then won the GF by 8-goals. I think we’d have been OK regardless.


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[danster168]

Absolutely not. System is fine as it is. OP sounds like sour grapes and excuse making after a bitter lose tbh

how can you say it's fine as it is when the system showed that it's monumentally flawed in the rich vs Geel game?

Let's be honest, if Stewart gets sent off Rich win. If Stewart doesn't hit Prestia and Prestia plays, Rich win. Geel won solely because he hit Prestia. That is a flawed system.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Chandler sling tackle?
Bailey Smith

3

Bailey Smith

Age

24

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

headbutt?
JHF swining arm?
Preuss sling tackle?
Ladhams punch?
Buddy open hand swat?

Where do we draw the line?

Chandler has to go right? Smith? Not much force but a total non football incident that leaves a player bleeding? JHF?

Once you send off one guy you're opening it up to grow and grow.

I think it’s a lot simpler than that. Firstly you can apply it only to incidents that take an oppo player out of the game, as the advantage the offending players team gets is the issue we are trying to solve.

So if it applies to only that, it would greatly reduce the number of incidents. Then it’s simply a case of having a video review of the incident whilst the game continues on. They can take a few minutes, look at all different angles etc…. and make a considered decision.


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[Dogs till i die]

if you were a director of the AFL and faced jail time, would you hold such a high hurdle?

imagine saying goodbye to your wife, kids and hello 6-10 years jail just because you took a risk on a turkey footballer

Yes I would. As a "Director of the AFL", I would ensure the game has the infrastructure and processes to deal with indiscretions and violent acts which it already has. An official who oversees and makes determinations on every possible indiscretion (MRO) and a secondary, independent, separate body that makes determinations when requested to do so (independent tribunal).

I would ensure there is an appeal process to ensure unjust decisions can be overturned.

If I had the skills and nous, I would feel comfortable to act as an AFL Commisioner / Director given the structures and processes already in place.

 

[Noidnadroj]

And how often do they actually make the right call? How often do the umpires not see the incident, then later see a player down behind play and send a player off on the outcome not the action?

Again, funny how all those in favour ignore the question, would you have sent of Mackay for his hit on Clark last year? Because I guarantee you 100% the umpires would of sent him off for a bump found to be totally legal.

Don’t have umpires make the decision. Have it video reviewed whilst the game goes on and if it’s clearly a reportable offence the player can be red carded or whatever the penalty is.


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[darcytiger]

What about for incidents that are longer than two weeks, one of the weeks is reserved for the next game between those teams.

Striking, 4 weeks. Player misses the next 3 games then the next game against that team, weather it be later in the H&A, finals or the next year.

 

[Power Raid]

Yes I would. As a "Director of the AFL", I would ensure the game has the infrastructure and processes to deal with indiscretions and violent acts which it already has. An official who oversees and makes determinations on every possible indiscretion (MRO) and a secondary, independent, separate body that makes determinations when requested to do so (independent tribunal).

I would ensure there is an appeal process to ensure unjust decisions can be overturned.

If I had the skills and nous, I would feel comfortable to act as an AFL Commisioner / Director given the structures and processes already in place.

would you let someone who has assaulted an employee in the workplace, remain in the workplace for the remainder of the day? Forcing the victim to work in a hostile environment, with threats, bullying and the risk of serious injury (even death)?

oh and you would go to jail as your process does not meet the minimum requirements

 

[Power Raid]

And how often do they actually make the right call? How often do the umpires not see the incident, then later see a player down behind play and send a player off on the outcome not the action?

Again, funny how all those in favour ignore the question, would you have sent of Mackay for his hit on Clark last year? Because I guarantee you 100% the umpires would of sent him off for a bump found to be totally legal.

have the coach of the player who made the indiscretion make the decision

if he makes the wrong call as assessed by the MRO, then he is banned from the game for life and the players fielded 22 rounds


over the top? it's less than jail time

 

[Beer n Skittles]

I think it’s as much about …. what if that was a Grand Final. The game would not have been won on its merits. If Prestia knocks out Stewart Richmond win the flag, but Stewart knocked out Prestia so Geelong do. Something not quite right about that…. it’s worth discussing the options BEFORE it happens in a big final or GF.





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Didn’t Cotchin already do it in a big final? Good thing they didn’t have a red card rule.

No team would suffer more under a send off rule than the unsociable tigers

 

[HAPPY CHEFFY]

If Richmond had’ve pinched the game at the end I doubt this would even be a question.

 

[Daka]

Didn’t Cotchin already do it in a big final? Good thing they didn’t have a red card rule.

No team would suffer more under a send off rule than the unsociable tigers

Difference in that case was Cotchin had his hands on the ball, you can not compare it to Tom Stewart who wasn't even looking at the ball & went straight for Prestia.

 

[Grockadoc]

Didn’t Cotchin already do it in a big final? Good thing they didn’t have a red card rule.

No team would suffer more under a send off rule than the unsociable tigers

Except again, Shiel played another 15 minutes that game and came off second best in another collision with Astbury.

So, it comes down to one of 3 things:

1: The Giants doctors disregarded the safety of their players, risking their medical license to allow a concussed Shiel to return to the field after the Cotchin contest.

2: The Giants doctors disregarded the safety of Shiel by not giving him enough time for delayed concussion symptoms to appear after the Cotchin incident.

3: Shiel was fine after the Cotchin incident and it happened in another contest.

 

[chriso11]

If you have a problem with it don't play.

Dumbest statement I’ve read here in a long time.

 

[revo333]

If Richmond had’ve pinched the game at the end I doubt this would even be a question.

It happened in the 2020 grand final but Richmond won so it's just a clear case of salt.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

What about for incidents that are longer than two weeks, one of the weeks is reserved for the next game between those teams.

Striking, 4 weeks. Player misses the next 3 games then the next game against that team, weather it be later in the H&A, finals or the next year.

I like this idea and it is a good thing of actually being fair to the side that has been infringed

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

While it took a while to work through the kinks, the NRL bunker works well now. It can assess foul play without stoping play and generally makes sensible decisions with a feel for the game, and for my mind tends to err to the side of not intruding on the game.

As many others have noted, you don’t necessarily need a send off for what Stewart did, but a 10 minute period down one man can help level things (I.e. Stewart off and only 17 players left on the field).

I think the NRL bunker is based off the NFL bunker, which I presume works well too.

Rugby Union on the other hand is a case in point of the game gone barking mad. The TMO interjects at the smallest incident of a tackler grazing the head of the ball carrier, as well as other very minor off the ball incidents that have no impact on the game. It’s a game of laws run by lawyers and umpired by lawyers - so no surprise it has become a sh*t show.

Soccer is not far off Union. It’s one saving grace is the match referee can overturn incorrect penalties and even penalise diving, which helps reduce the amount of ballet on the field.

Long story short - I think there should be a bunker review system in the AFL for serious incidents. I think there should be time outs and send offs as different options.

However, I have no faith that the current umpire department could pull it off. They have zero feel for the game and tend to do what they think money hungry execs want (tribunal decisions based on outcome not intent, allowing throwing and dropping of ball, etc).

It would only be a matter of time before someone did something that is not bad but that ends in an serious injury, and the twitchy AFL bunker would send them and it would be a sh*t show.

Let’s fix the umpiring before giving them more power.

 

[revo333]

I like this idea and it is a good thing of actually being fair to the side that has been infringed

So a gun player gets suspended for 4 weeks.

Misses only 3 and comes back for a grand final against your team.

Oh I'm sure you will still like it!

 

[LukeParkerno1]

While it took a while to work through the kinks, the NRL bunker works well now. It can assess foul play without stoping play and generally makes sensible decisions with a feel for the game, and for my mind tends to err to the side of not intruding on the game.

As many others have noted, you don’t necessarily need a send off for what Stewart did, but a 10 minute period down one man can help level things (I.e. Stewart off and only 17 players left on the field).

I think the NRL bunker is based off the NFL bunker, which I presume works well too.

Rugby Union on the other hand is a case in point of the game gone barking mad. The TMO interjects at the smallest incident of a tackler grazing the head of the ball carrier, as well as other very minor off the ball incidents that have no impact on the game. It’s a game of laws run by lawyers and umpired by lawyers - so no surprise it has become a sh*t show.

Soccer is not far off Union. It’s one saving grace is the match referee can overturn incorrect penalties and even penalise diving, which helps reduce the amount of ballet on the field.

Long story short - I think there should be a bunker review system in the AFL for serious incidents. I think there should be time outs and send offs as different options.

However, I have no faith that the current umpire department could pull it off. They have zero feel for the game and tend to do what they think money hungry execs want (tribunal decisions based on outcome not intent, allowing throwing and dropping of ball, etc).

It would only be a matter of time before someone did something that is not bad but that ends in an serious injury, and the twitchy AFL bunker would send them and it would be a sh*t show.

Let’s fix the umpiring before giving them more power.

Tell me you didn’t say the NRL bunker works well? How many games have you watched? They are still as inconsistent as ever.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So a gun player gets suspended for 4 weeks.

Misses only 3 and comes back for a grand final against your team.

Oh I'm sure you will still like it!

If you get more than 2 weeks that’s a decent action therefore you should miss one of those games against the side you infringe against. I wouldn’t have an issue with your scenario

 

[revo333]

If you get more than 2 weeks that’s a decent action therefore you should miss one of those games against the side you infringe against. I wouldn’t have an issue with your scenario

Yeah you would lol.

 

[Stamos]

There are obvious and very strong reasons why a send-off rule is a good idea.

Yet to see a single good reason why we shouldn't have it.

The video umpire is only allowed to over-turn the goal umpire's decision if there is conclusive video evidence that there was a mistake. And yet last week, the video umpire went against this rule, and over-turned the umpire's decision without conclusive evidence, and made a game changing decision.

Earlier this year, the MRO charged Lewis Young with Forceful Front-on Contact without seemingly even reading the rule that they charged him with. Carlton went to the tribunal, and it was thrown out, because the charge did not apply to the action. Despite this, Brad Scott still argued that the charge was right.

Which of these muppets should be given the responsibility to send a player off during the game?

I've seen an Amateurs Grand Final decided due to a player being sent off, where the League reprimanded the umpire for the bad decision.
You don't get to replay the game though.

There are no good reasons to have a send-off rule which stack up to the reasons not to.