Society/Culture Do you support the identity thesis instead of liberalism?

Remove this Banner Ad

Sep 15, 2007
52,240
49,171
Where i need to be
AFL Club
Geelong
What is the identity thesis? It’s a thesis that liberalism has failed to identify all the causes of racism/sexism etc and actively works against addressing them. Advocates of identity thesis therefore propose radically different counter solutions to those proposed by liberalism.

Advocates of the identity thesis argue that a significant amount of history should be framed through a lens of identity. Historical events, they argue, were often driven by race, sex, gender, sexual preference or religion.

The identity thesis rejects universalism. The core tenant of liberalism is that everyone are individuals who should be treated equally regardless of race/sex/class or religion. However, advocates of the identity thesis believe that in practice universal neutrality is impossible and instead policies labelled as universal and neutral actually serve members of privileged (dominant) groups. Derrick Bell argued that “a neutral perspective does not, and cannot exist”.

Underlying this view is a postmodern view of humanity that was proposed by the likes of Michel Foucault that is skeptical of progress and rejects utopian visions. This view argues that human society is and will always be based around a zero-sum game of groups competing for power. The groups in charge will always exert power in their own interest at the expense of groups without power, if not directly then through informal means.

Proponents of the identity thesis therefore argue that policies implemented in the name of universalist ideals are actually a charade and instead serve the interests of the dominate identity group: white straight Christian men. They therefore propose that we should not try to implement universalist goals. Universalist goals, they argue, are doomed to fail and in reality, simply move the exertion of power by and for the dominant group from formal policies to informal where they are less obvious to those that are repressed by them.

Instead proponents of the identity thesis advocate we must impose laws and norms that treat each person based on their identity groups. In particular those who belong to non-dominant identity groups (groups that are in the minority of have been historically repressed) should be given special privileges relative to those in the dominant groups. These special privileges should occur because the current norms and institutions continue to informally discriminate against non-dominant groups. The special privileges should also be determined by the members of non-dominant groups because advocates of the identity thesis argue that members of the dominant groups can’t truly understand what it’s like to belong to non-dominant groups (this is standpoint theory). This is because broad and continuous repression throughout ones life is only an experience faced by members of non-dominant identity groups.

The aim of this discussion is to ask if you believe in the identity thesis as described above. Or maybe you believe in parts of it but not others? If so can you elaborate which parts. In the next post I go through some of the policies and ideas that emerged from the identity thesis to provide more details.

A discussion on the positives/negatives of th identity thesis, as compared to liberalism, would also be appreciated?

Now please note that Cultural Marxism is not a part of the identity thesis. For one Marxism focuses on class as the key distinguisher of groups, not identity. Plus, more importantly, Marxism is utopian. It aims to improve society by moving everyone into part of a single group, the proletariat. The identity thesis has no such endeavors. It aims to ensure people are permanently separated into identity groups because of its pessimistic view that racism/sexism/homophobia/tolerance of religions can never be overcome, it can only be managed.

Please note, that trying to summarize the attributes of the identity theses into a couple of paragraphs for discussion on a forum is quite difficult. Please try not to dismiss everything that is written here based on the fact I haven’t discussed all the nuances. However, if there are fundamental parts of the thesis missing or fundamental parts that are mistaken, then please add your corrections.
 
As a result of this broad synthesis a number of ideas and policies have emerged:

An idea that structural racism is widespread and dominant and every policy toolkit available should be used to minimise structural racism. This includes using polices that are racist at an individual level. Indeed, some advocates of the identity thesis even argue we should reframe racism to be solely structural and not include discrimination against individuals based on identity as part of the label. This reframing has led some advocates to claim “its almost impossible to be racist against a white person”. This has also led companies to openly state that they are only hiring people from certain identity groups in cases where identity should be irrelevant to the job being performed.

Many advocates of the identity thesis advocate that reparations for injustices imposed by one identity group upon another identity group in the long distance past should be given from members of one identity group today to the other. And this is not just by those members of an identity group who have benefited from their ancestors injustices but also those who have not. Indeed many reparation advocates argue that wealthy people who belong to the identity group who were vilified should also receive reparations from poor members of the identity group that imposed the injustice.

Policies should be employed to increase representation of non-dominant identity groups through all areas of life. Note that the goal here is representation as an end and not simply to overcome both conscious and subconscious bias against members of non-dominant groups (which was the reason liberals advocate for affirmative action policies). As an example, advocates of the identity thesis argued that color blind performances in New Yorks elite classical music schools should be abandoned because they were not leading to a sufficient rise in successful applications of African American students. Some advocates argue that representation on each walk of life should aim to mirror broader population shares, while others simply argue the goal is to increase non dominant identity groups memberships in each walk of life as high as possible regardless of population shares. In the major US universities enrollment intakes are well over represented by non-dominant groups compared with population averages and yet these universities continue to advocate that ones membership of non-dominant groups should be a key criteria for enrollment selection despite the fact it’s now the dominant groups that are significantly underrepresented at major universities.

Advocates of the identity thesis have argued for the concept of progressive separatism. This is the idea that people should be separated from those that don’t belong to their own identity groups because those from separate identity groups have a tendency to mistreat and trigger each other. We are seeing advocacy of progressive separatism in some US schools and even kindergartens where classes are being separated into racial groups.

The identity thesis also advocates curtailing (penalizing) some forms of free speech. It is argued that its naïve to assume that truth will emerge from an open market of debate when large media conglomerates and social media companies with vested interests hold a significant power imbalance in the market of ideas. Free speech controlled by the dominant groups will tend to mock or devalue non dominant identity groups, even subconsciously, and therefore its beneficial to ban certain speech that each identity groups believes harms them even if it comes at some costs.

The identity thesis has also significantly broadened the definition of cultural appropriation. It no longer just includes behaviours from members of the majority group that mocks or steals items for financial benefit from non-dominant identity groups. It now includes any participation from members of dominant identity group in any behavior that were historically derived from non-dominant identity groups without specific consent from members of the non-dominant group. And in many cases even consent has not be considered legitimate justification for participation.

Are these ideas and policies in your view the correct approach to solving the problems of repression against non dominant group members? Is this the framework of how we should design our society?
 
Frustrated Headache GIF by Kelly Clarkson


You've got some interesting stuff in here intermingled with some absolute gobbledigook, but your problem is that no-one will ever read those very dry, very content heavy, and very, very silly paragraphs, Seeds.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Frustrated Headache GIF by Kelly Clarkson


You've got some interesting stuff in here intermingled with some absolute gobbledigook, but your problem is that no-one will ever read those very dry, very content heavy, and very, very silly paragraphs, Seeds.
This is where i was hoping people to correct me on the silly paragraphs. What is silly and why?

The problem with non utopian ideas is that no one who actually believes in it actually writes it down as a complete and consistent ideology. It makes it very hard to piece it together. And maybe its nots possible.
 
Last edited:
This is where i was hoping people to correct me on the silly paragraphs. What is silly and why?

The problem with non utopian ideas is that no one who actually believes in it actually writes it down as a complete and consistent ideology. It makes it very hard to piece it together. And maybe its nots possible.
The passage relies on communal understanding of a few catchall terms that you have had explained to you - at length, by me, multiple times - that you misuse and misunderstand, and that you decline to define or justify that definition. There's also the fact - you know - that this is, essentially, an outgrowth of a football forum; you might have a better time posting it on a philosophy forum, because they're going to have superior reading stamina for absolute nonsense and they're going to be able to point you in the right direction should you seek understanding.

But - knowing you - what you're seeking isn't understanding but relief from boredom via argument.
 
This is where i was hoping people to correct me on the silly paragraphs. What is silly and why?

The problem with non utopian ideas is that no one who actually believes in it actually writes it down as a complete and consistent ideology. It makes it very hard to piece it together. And maybe its nots possible.
'Utopian ideas' are extremely relative though, e.g. Thomas More's version of Utopia (outlined in his novella) are heavily influenced by his religious beliefs and the environment in England during his time and would differ substantially to most modern versions of the ideal society.

In any case, the concept does seem to touch on the great justice debates (Rawls vs Sen) of transcendentalism (the idea of a perfect system of justice) vs incrementalism (perfection is impossible, but constant improvement is possible and this should be the focus).
FWIW I am very much in the incrementalism camp.
 
Frustrated Headache GIF by Kelly Clarkson


You've got some interesting stuff in here intermingled with some absolute gobbledigook, but your problem is that no-one will ever read those very dry, very content heavy, and very, very silly paragraphs, Seeds.
Unfortunately I speed read and read all of it.

It’s like between the lines he knows why but pretends he doesn’t. Pretends that there is no justification for trying to lift people up who have been squashed flat.
 
'Utopian ideas' are extremely relative though, e.g. Thomas More's version of Utopia (outlined in his novella) are heavily influenced by his religious beliefs and the environment in England during his time and would differ substantially to most modern versions of the ideal society.

In any case, the concept does seem to touch on the great justice debates (Rawls vs Sen) of transcendentalism (the idea of a perfect system of justice) vs incrementalism (perfection is impossible, but constant improvement is possible and this should be the focus).
FWIW I am very much in the incrementalism camp.
IMG_1902.jpeg
 
'Utopian ideas' are extremely relative though, e.g. Thomas More's version of Utopia (outlined in his novella) are heavily influenced by his religious beliefs and the environment in England during his time and would differ substantially to most modern versions of the ideal society.

In any case, the concept does seem to touch on the great justice debates (Rawls vs Sen) of transcendentalism (the idea of a perfect system of justice) vs incrementalism (perfection is impossible, but constant improvement is possible and this should be the focus).
FWIW I am very much in the incrementalism camp.
Im more a utilitarian then a rawlsian. Although I do believe in the long run they theoretically should end up in the same spot. In practise though I dont think they do due to mistakenly focusing too much on the short run and failing to get to the right rawlsian consistent long run.

I support incrementalism to a degree. Tinkering is often best in many cases but it needs a flexible utopian vision to guide it in the right direction. Without a utopian guide how do you even know incrementalism is making things better? In saying that you need to get the right version of utopia and that depends on what you think is the ultimate end. Is it satisfying the morality of god, is it maximising average human well being, is it maximising the living standards of the person with the worst living standards, is it ensuring equality, is it maximising my well being, is it minimising human impact upon the earth? Each ultimate end leads to a different utopia and even the same ultimate end leads to different ideas about what utopia looks like (but only one of those ideas is right).

When push comes to shove most philosophers believe the ultimate end is human and advocate either utilitarianism or Rawls as their measure of success.
 
Last edited:
Lol is this real? How is this not front page news if it is?

 

Remove this Banner Ad

Society/Culture Do you support the identity thesis instead of liberalism?

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top