Opinion Elite Potential on our List

[faible]

If you get the mix right then you don't need heaps of elite talent.

The Hawks have little but were outstanding last year.

Will be interesting to see how they hold up this year now teams will have spent more time and energy preparing to combat the way Hawthorn play.

 

[ant555]

If you get the mix right then you don't need heaps of elite talent.

The Hawks have little but were outstanding last year.

Hawks have plenty of elite kicking talent.

 

[faible]

Hawks have plenty of elite kicking talent.

<jake kelly.gif>

 

[Mercurial89]

There's also a difference between no recognised elite talent and actually having none.
I'd argue hawks have some players with absolutely elite traits but it's not recognised as much yet or doesn't get focused on. Football industry is slow to come round on most things and normally lags behind moving off things as well so this is not surprising.

Same thing happens in reverse where a teams supporters, let's say Essendon fans, assume that their high end draft picks that have little to no exposed elite form assume that this is the player that will be the elite talent that propels them up the ladder.

 

[DERO]

Top 5 contested marks I have ever seen.

Just could not kick! Awesome mark. Now the greatest runner in the AFL

 

[Happyskeret]

I quite like jones on the wing. It seems to play to his strengths. Doesn’t really seem to understand the positioning of it but when he does it seems like he’ll be an AFL standard player another 10 years which is really handy

I would definitely like to see what he is like there with a proper preseason under his belt. Not saying he should be 1st choice but the pessimist in me can’t see Dursma playing a full season. Love to be proven wrong though. Nice to have a mismatch to your advantage up your sleeve too if you need to throw a few chess pieces around if things aren’t going our way. This is why I like Brad better than the last couple of coaches we have had. He will roll the dice at times. I thought Wosha and Rutten lived and died by the gameplan. I don’t think it was Brad’s first choice to play Jones there but he is trying to salvage a player that has unique traits and trying to make him fit into the team structure to help the team and save the kids career. I give credit to Rutten for what he did with Lav but Brad had to do it with Jones mid season.

 

[fairbump_playon]

Everyone is sleeping on Jones defensive intensity

Before the wing shift he played a stretch of games where he kept us in the contest by scrapping and scratching at loose balls and 50/50s in the forward line

Yes, he needs to take more grabs (and I believe will in time) but in those games I saw enough to know he will play 200+

 

[Happyskeret]

Everyone is sleeping on Jones defensive intensity

Before the wing shift he played a stretch of games where he kept us in the contest by scrapping and scratching at loose balls and 50/50s in the forward line

Yes, he needs to take more grabs (and I believe will in time) but in those games I saw enough to know he will play 200+

I agree with you but I won’t ever forget the game which it was perhaps the first of last year where he had negative super coach points. Who do you blame for that? The player? The gameplan? I don’t know but it was a far cry from his second year on the list. Those defensive acts will only get him so far. He is elite at corralling opponents I will give him that but I would rather someone who is elite in taking pack or contested marks. He gets compared to Riewoldt a lot because of his tank. Riewoldt trumps him because contested marks are much more a valuable trait than corralling some bloke. He didn’t get moved away from the forward line for no reason.

I think Brad was trying to take the pressure off him and give him a license to float in the forward line and not have to wait for it rather than just being and out and out wingman. I think he is on the right track but is looking more like a project player to me at this stage.

 

[jdstorm]

I agree with you but I won’t ever forget the game which it was perhaps the first of last year where he had negative super coach points. Who do you blame for that? The player? The gameplan? I don’t know but it was a far cry from his second year on the list. Those defensive acts will only get him so far. He is elite at corralling opponents I will give him that but I would rather someone who is elite in taking pack or contested marks. He gets compared to Riewoldt a lot because of his tank. Riewoldt trumps him because contested marks are much more a valuable trait than corralling some bloke. He didn’t get moved away from the forward line for no reason.

I think Brad was trying to take the pressure off him and give him a license to float in the forward line and not have to wait for it rather than just being and out and out wingman. I think he is on the right track but is looking more like a project player to me at this stage.

It’s really hard to get SuperCoach points as a forward on a bad team and guys have bad games sometimes. Combine the two and it’s easy to see how a player can have a disaster game every so often.

I think the wing thing was admittance that jones just isn’t that good of a forward as much as just needing to find a healthy body who could play there.

All players have their strengths and weaknesses and for jones situations where he’s defended 1 on 1 or required to use strength to hold position is something he struggles with.

He’s really good floating in off the side, is pretty fast and can run all day.

Ideally as a forward he’s probably your 3rd forward. However Essendon had a bunch of them last season (Langford/Stringer) so Jones didn’t really fit alongside them.

Had some injuries. Tried him at wing and it seems to have played to his strengths. He’s more Will Hoskin Elliot then Nick Reiwolt but seems like a 200+ games guy and from a 2nd round pick that is a pretty good outcome

 

[Happyskeret]

It’s really hard to get SuperCoach points as a forward on a bad team and guys have bad games sometimes. Combine the two and it’s easy to see how a player can have a disaster game every so often.

I think the wing thing was admittance that jones just isn’t that good of a forward as much as just needing to find a healthy body who could play there.

All players have their strengths and weaknesses and for jones situations where he’s defended 1 on 1 or required to use strength to hold position is something he struggles with.

He’s really good floating in off the side, is pretty fast and can run all day.

Ideally as a forward he’s probably your 3rd forward. However Essendon had a bunch of them last season (Langford/Stringer) so Jones didn’t really fit alongside them.

Had some injuries. Tried him at wing and it seems to have played to his strengths. He’s more Will Hoskin Elliot then Nick Reiwolt but seems like a 200+ games guy and from a 2nd round pick that is a pretty good outcome

I think he has forward craft it’s just holding those damn marks. I hope you are right and he plays over 200. At least he knows he has support from the coach.

 

[The Devils Advocate]

Who's the other 4?

Wayne Carey, Matthew Richardson, Stuey Lowe and Tom Hawkins.

Barry Hall was hard to squeeze out.

 

[boncer34]

Wayne Carey, Matthew Richardson, Stuey Lowe and Tom Hawkins.

Barry Hall was hard to squeeze out.

Sticks is pretty stiff.

 

[Blind Turn]

Sticks is pretty stiff.

Ablett was better than Cloke. Probably better than any of them. His body positioning and one grab marking was sublime. Sticks, Lockett, and Brown were also better (in my humble opinion) and Tredrea was on par.

And stiff Sticks was no green stick.

 

[The Devils Advocate]

Sticks is pretty stiff.

I only saw the very tail end of his career. I don't remember what he was good at tbh

 

[The Devils Advocate]

Ablett was better than Cloke.

As I said, top 5 of the players I've seen. Sticks and Ablett were before my time. 1996 semi final was the first game I can 'remember'. Cloke was an absolutely elite contested mark.

 

[Blind Turn]

As I said, top 5 of the players I've seen. Sticks and Ablett were before my time. 1996 semi final was the first game I can 'remember'. Cloke was an absolutely elite contested mark.

Fair enough. Needed the context of how far back you could remember. I assumed that if you remembered Loewe you would also have Ablett, Lockett, and Sticks in the frame. Brown and Tredrea would be the 2 I’d have ahead of Cloke on your timeframe. Lloyd and Hall also in the conversation.

 

[DERO]

Van Der Haar

 

[eth-dog]

Cloke, Hawkins, Hooker, Brown and Tredrea for me.

 

[The Devils Advocate]

Jeremy McGovern would be up there actually.

 

[Blind Turn]

Van Der Haar

I actually always considered TD more consistent taking the contested marks whereas Vander was more spectacular and able to take them out of nowhere. TD was just solid and difficult to out-position. Big Rodger isn’t to be underestimated either for his contested marking back in that era.

 

[Blind Turn]

I actually always considered TD more consistent taking the contested marks whereas Vander was more spectacular and able to take them out of nowhere. TD was just solid and difficult to out-position. Big Rodger isn’t to be underestimated either for his contested marking back in that era.

Vander18 No offence there Dutchman

 

[DERO]

Vander18 No offence there Dutchman

Cale Hooker was pretty solid too. I’m too young to have seen peak Van Der Haar to be honest but I do remember one game in the late 80’s - one of my first footy memories. (That and Dermie knocking him out) when he was playing at centre half back and was marking everything.

Ablett or Carey for mine. Loewe was good, Cloke was good and the big fella that got handcuffed to Chris Judd at Carlton and ended up at Golf Coast wasn’t too bad either. I remember Lloyd being a pretty handy contested mark too on occasion.

 

[Blind Turn]

Cale Hooker was pretty solid too. I’m too young to have seen peak Van Der Haar to be honest but I do remember one game in the late 80’s - one of my first footy memories. (That and Dermie knocking him out) when he was playing at centre half back and was marking everything.

Ablett or Carey for mine. Loewe was good, Cloke was good and the big fella that got handcuffed to Chris Judd at Carlton and ended up at Golf Coast wasn’t too bad either. I remember Lloyd being a pretty handy contested mark too on occasion.

Would it have been against WC in 1989 perhaps?



Poor old Vander missed the best part of three seasons during his peak years after his best season in 1985. He was a shadow of his former self in those later years but still managed one or two games a year that showed us what he once was. That WC game stands out in the tables above.

I have vague memories of seeing highlights of that game after we slaughtered the Eagles at Windy Hill but Vander kicked 3 goals so I’m not sure that he played CHB.

 

[DERO]

Would it have been against WC in 1989 perhaps?

View attachment 2197243

Poor old Vander missed the best part of three seasons during his peak years after his best season in 1985. He was a shadow of his former self in those later years but still managed one or two games a year that showed us what he once was. That WC game stands out in the tables above.

I have vague memories of seeing highlights of that game after we slaughtered the Eagles at Windy Hill but Vander kicked 3 goals so I’m not sure that he played CHB.

Highly likely that it was 88 or 89 because it was around that time I moved back south and started going to the footy with my folks. It was definitely the MCG and not Windy Hill. I thought it may have been against Melbourne. The memory is hazy!

 

[Blind Turn]

Highly likely that it was 88 or 89 because it was around that time I moved back south and started going to the footy with my folks. It was definitely the MCG and not Windy Hill. I thought it may have been against Melbourne. The memory is hazy!

The 1988 game against Melbourne might’ve been Simon Madden’s 300th if that rings a bell. Vander Haar took 13 marks that day, first game back after a year out!