Yeah last week if you had told me we lost contested possessions and won by 48 points I wouldn't have believed you.
We played against all our key metrics and looked the best we have all year really.
Coach Fages and the coaching group
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We played against all our key metrics and looked the best we have all year really.
Morbidly_Obese
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Players are overlooked for a variety of biased reasons and perceived flaws like age, appearance and personality but statistics and mathematics cut straight through that.
Viceregal
Norm Smith Medallist
If there was such a thing as an objective 'truth' of mathematics or statistics gag perhaps but what we choose to measure and how we measure it and how we apply it and what we choose to combine and how we present it and what conclusions we bring to it are all but completely subjective and almost always a function of the narrative the present brings to the table.
eg Dev only gets x possessions (a stat) = Dev sucks dump him <- from the Dev hater (or the Gunston lover)
vs Dev only gets x possessions but his opponent gets a quarter of what they normally get and he also leads the team in tackles, 1%ers, pressure acts, sprints, distance covered and gets 8 points from the coaches (also stats) = Dev is awesome and played his role to perfection picked in the top 5 next week <- from a Dev lover.
eg Joe gets the most goals and coaches votes (stats) = Joe had a great game
vs Joe is expected to play even better (subjective) so those stats are considered irrelevant = Joe still sucks (a narrative)
eg Cam has 16 touches and is involved in 12 scores from them and lifts the team every time he touches it = Cam party
vs Cam has always sucked and must kick 5 goals in all three finals to have a pass mark = unrealistic presentation and narrative.
Nunez
Premium Platinum
Also known as the Danster
Viceregal
Norm Smith Medallist
grin - the examples used in my post are completely fictional ... any similarity to current or past big footy posters was 100% deliberate!
I kindly didn't name them however (and in this case didn't really want to tag him into this thread in case he decides to stay around)
Morbidly_Obese
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Is it too late to bring back vossy?
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Only if we make/win the grand final - losing next weekend should be seen as a failure.
Anything can happen on a given day.
We've had as good a preparation as you could hope for and if we play near our capacity we will win next week.
If we lose then I'd likely view it as a failure on that day depending on the circumstances but not necessarily a failure overall because we've had a good enough year to finish second on the ladder and win a final convincingly.
No doubt there'll be plenty happy to tear us to pieces but we're still a strong club list and management wise.
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I agree with this... unless he puts Gunston out there, then that would be a coaching failure.
- Thread starter
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https://www.couriermail.com.au/spor...e/news-story/e31c49de8e6207c8dd6d1ec0fc6bf004
Brisbane is staring down its best chance at a flag in two decades and it’s the result of a measured approach to list building that began the moment Chris Fagan walked in the door seven years ago.
His has not been an overnight success the likes of which we have witnessed at Collingwood, Carlton and GWS in varying forms. Under Fagan’s stewardship, Brisbane has built itself piece by piece from a premiership afterthought to heavyweight hopeful.
When his Lions debuted in the finals five years ago they were the upstart underdogs. Bright eyed and bushy tailed – only a season removed from a five-win, 15th-placed finish – they bombed out in straight sets.
The following season they earned their first finals win but fell short in a prelim against Geelong and two years later went the longer road but endured a similar result against the Cats, who would go on to win the flag.
The numbers and the eyes tell us this is a different Brisbane team to the ones that have come before. It’s refined. Hardened. Four seasons of finals failures have steeled these Lions for a proper premiership tilt.
Get past the Blues on Saturday and they’re into a first grand final since 2004.
So, how exactly has Fagan gotten his side to this point?
2016: THE REBUILD
Fagan was named senior coach in October 2016 and little more than a month later he was part of the brains trust that began the Brisbane rebuild at that year’s national draft.
The Lions had just come off a destitute three-win season and were only 0.6 percentage points clear of a wooden spoon. They had not played finals since 2009.
Just six of the current playing group were on the list when Fagan took the reins: Daniel Rich, Dayne Zorko, Darcy Gardiner, Eric Hipwood, Harris Andrews and Rhys Mathieson.
Of those, only Zorko, Hipwood and Andrews are part of his best 23 as it stands.
The 2016 off-season was the turning point.
Brisbane brought in 12 fresh faces but three of those stood out from the rest: Hugh McCluggage, Jarrod Berry and Oscar McInerney.
The Lions needed top-end talent to kickstart their rebuild and the Giants were a willing trade participant.
Brisbane parted with pick 2 and three minor selections to land picks 3 and 16, which it turned into McCluggage and Berry.
The pair have been best mates since school and remain a core part of a midfield which now rates as arguably the best in the competition.
When all is said and done at the end of their careers, McCluggage and Tim Taranto could be considered the two top picks from the 2016 draft class. That Brisbane was able to land two key pieces for ostensibly the price of one was shrewd business.
They rounded out the key selections that year by taking McInerney with pick 37 in the rookie draft. He was the club’s third and final rookie selection that year and would not debut until round 6, 2018.
He has since evolved into one of the most consistent big men in the game and a cornerstone of Brisbane’s midfield dominance throughout the Fagan era.
2017: THE HAUL
If 2016 was the turning point, 2017 was arguably the most successful off-season of Fagan’s tenure – and it needed to be.
Five wins landed the Lions in last spot that year and with it came the first pick of the draft, which the club used to grab heralded talent Cam Rayner.
A swap of picks with Richmond helped the Lions move up the board and take Zac Bailey with pick 15 before grabbing Brandon Starcevich three picks later with the compensation they received for letting Tom Rockliff depart to Port Adelaide as a restricted free agent.
In those three alone Brisbane has garnered more than 300 games of experience, and that 2017 trio has become a staple of Fagan’s sides throughout its finals campaigns.
With their second selection, via Richmond, they added Academy product Jack Payne, who took time to develop but has blossomed this season as Harris Andrews’ right-hand man in defence.
The Lions had landed a haul in the draft, however, it was two key trades that signalled the club’s high expectations for the near future.
Charlie Cameron and Luke Hodge walked in the door for draft capital the club had stockpiled in 2016.
They turned Pearce Hanley and a 2016 second-round pick into Cameron, while a pair of 2017 late-rounders were bundled together for Hawthorn to trade the rights away to its triple-premiership captain.
It was Cameron’s call to escape the footy bubble of Adelaide for the familiar surrounds of Queensland, where he grew up, and Brisbane had the draft hand to make that reunion a reality.
Hodge was sold the idea of an on-field coaching role by Fagan, who planted the seed with a cheeky text ahead of the Hawthorn legend’s 300th game.
After Hodge’s retirement Fagan again touched base and Brisbane landed one of the recruiting coups of recent memory.
Cameron, of course, remains the focal point of the best attack in the AFL and has two All-Australian jerseys in his locker, while Hodge played a crucial part in helping the Lions transition into a perennial finals contender before permanently retiring at the end of 2019.
2018: THE BIG FISH
For all of Brisbane’s wheeling and dealing, moving up the ladder proved a difficult task.
Another five-win campaign followed in 2018 and it became clear the Lions needed some established talent to fill key posts.
Marcus Adams and Lincoln McCarthy were earmarked and subsequently added during the trade period to offer experience at either end of the ground, but Brisbane still wanted a midfield star to pair with Dayne Beams and Zorko.
Incredibly, Fagan managed to woo two-time Fremantle best-and-fairest winner Lachie Neale away from his adopted home in Perth to take up the new challenge in Queensland.
By Neale’s own admission he had no real reason to leave Fremantle. He had a year left to run on his deal and the Dockers had a similar offer on the table as Brisbane.
His wife, Julie, had just opened a salon in Perth.
But Fagan sold the idea of a bright future to Neale and, six weeks later, the Lions landed their man.
What the club had not banked on was Beams flip-flopping on a decision to stay at the Lions or return to Collingwood.
The 2015 best-and-fairest winner had previously declared his intention to stay at Brisbane, only to renege on that decision late in the piece.
He was ultimately sent back to Collingwood in the final hour of the trade period, scuppering the club’s plans to pair he and Neale together in what would have been a potent midfield combination.
But Beams’ departure was softened not only by the Neale deal, but also the surprise acquisition of Jarryd Lyons as a free agent.
In what remains one of the more bizarre moves in recent years, Gold Coast delisted Lyons after a season in which the midfielder averaged 25 disposals and finished equal-third in clearances across the AFL.
The following year, with its bolstered blend of youth and experience, the Brisbane catapulted up the table to finish second in the home-and-away season before bowing out in straight-sets against Richmond and GWS in the finals.
2020: THE TALL TARGET
By the end of 2020, Brisbane’s profile had changed.
The Lions were suddenly post-season regulars, having finished second in consecutive campaigns.
They earned a maiden finals win under Fagan in the Covid-impacted 2020 season but fell in a heap against the Cats in the prelim two weeks later.
At the 2020 draft they added three players – Blake Coleman, Harry Sharp and Henry Smith – who all remain on the current list, though none have made an impact at AFL level.
But the big get was the signature of wantaway Bombers big man Joe Daniher, who the previous year had signalled his intent to be traded.
Essendon held Daniher to the final year of his deal but he was free to cross as a restricted free agent in 2020 and Fagan’s Lions, needing a tall target to place next to Eric Hipwood, were the perfect fit.
Daniher’s addition was seen by some as the final piece of the puzzle Brisbane needed to properly challenge for the flag.
The key forward has come under scrutiny at times as a Lion, but his 2023 season has been nothing short of outstanding.
Five goals in the qualifying final win over Port Adelaide underpinned his importance to a side that also relies on his skill set in the ruck.
It’s no coincidence that since Daniher arrived at the Gabba the Lions have averaged more than 90 points per game as one of the most potent attacks in the competition.
If Brisbane goes on to win the flag this season, the Daniher get will loom large as one of the major reasons why.
2021: THE HEARTSTOPPER
Building a premiership list is as much about retaining your top talent as it is attracting it.
The Lions had been hamstrung by the Beams move in 2018 and endured more than their share of wantaway players over the club’s lean years.
So when rumours spread that Neale was contemplating a return to Perth, it hit the club like a freight train.
Only a season removed from winning the Brownlow Medal and barely a week after notching 46 disposals in a qualifying final defeat to Melbourne, Neale told the club he was weighing up a return to WA, with his wife due to welcome their first child the following month.
It’s the sliding doors scenario that could have set fire to Fagan’s best laid premiership plans.
The face of the club, off the back of a third failed finals campaign, possibly wanted out.
Days later Neale faced the media to reveal he planned to see out the remaining two years of his contract, before declaring: “I’ve got unfinished business here, I want to be holding up a (premiership) cup in a Lions jersey”.
The following season, Neale would sign a three-year extension tying him to the club to the end of 2026.
Crisis averted.
2022: THE ICING
With Neale’s future secured, Brisbane was breathing a little easier, though it had still failed to crack the preliminary final conundrum.
The Lions ran into a rampant Geelong at the 2022 penultimate hurdle and were punished by the eventual reigning premiers.
Another lesson learned. Back to the drawing board.
It was always a matter of how, not if, Brisbane would land the two prized father-son selections of Will Ashcroft and Jaspa Fletcher in that year’s draft.
The crucial catch was, how much draft capital would it cost?
History says Ashcroft and Fletcher came as ready-made players who both played key roles in their debut AFL seasons. But you never expect the world of a first-year player, and thus the Lions had machinations to snatch Josh Dunkley from the Bulldogs.
It took until the final day of the trade period for the Lions to offer a deal that satisfied the Dogs, and Dunkley landed at the Gabba for pick 21 and a swap of future picks including Brisbane’s 2023 first-rounder.
Incredibly, the Lions also managed to muster up enough draft capital to land triple-premiership Hawk Jack Gunston, adding to a luxury of forward-50 riches.
Capping a stellar off-season was the signature of ex-Bomber Conor McKenna, who spurned a host of suitors – including his former club – to return to the AFL with Brisbane on a one-year deal via the pre-season supplemental selection period.
The Irishman quickly proved he still has the chops to star at AFL level and alongside the speed of Darcy Wilmot, displaced club stalwart Daniel Rich across half-back.
2023: THE FLAG?
On Saturday, Fagan’s masterplan will be put under the microscope once again.
A list painstakingly built over seven seasons will meet the same preliminary final hurdle it has failed to conquer twice before.
There is a feeling, even an expectation, that this will be the season to make that grand final jump.
Fagan has built a premiership-caliber list, but can it salute?
We will soon know the answer.
Brisbane is staring down its best chance at a flag in two decades and it’s the result of a measured approach to list building that began the moment Chris Fagan walked in the door seven years ago.
His has not been an overnight success the likes of which we have witnessed at Collingwood, Carlton and GWS in varying forms. Under Fagan’s stewardship, Brisbane has built itself piece by piece from a premiership afterthought to heavyweight hopeful.
When his Lions debuted in the finals five years ago they were the upstart underdogs. Bright eyed and bushy tailed – only a season removed from a five-win, 15th-placed finish – they bombed out in straight sets.
The following season they earned their first finals win but fell short in a prelim against Geelong and two years later went the longer road but endured a similar result against the Cats, who would go on to win the flag.
The numbers and the eyes tell us this is a different Brisbane team to the ones that have come before. It’s refined. Hardened. Four seasons of finals failures have steeled these Lions for a proper premiership tilt.
Get past the Blues on Saturday and they’re into a first grand final since 2004.
So, how exactly has Fagan gotten his side to this point?
2016: THE REBUILD
Fagan was named senior coach in October 2016 and little more than a month later he was part of the brains trust that began the Brisbane rebuild at that year’s national draft.
The Lions had just come off a destitute three-win season and were only 0.6 percentage points clear of a wooden spoon. They had not played finals since 2009.
Just six of the current playing group were on the list when Fagan took the reins: Daniel Rich, Dayne Zorko, Darcy Gardiner, Eric Hipwood, Harris Andrews and Rhys Mathieson.
Of those, only Zorko, Hipwood and Andrews are part of his best 23 as it stands.
The 2016 off-season was the turning point.
Brisbane brought in 12 fresh faces but three of those stood out from the rest: Hugh McCluggage, Jarrod Berry and Oscar McInerney.
The Lions needed top-end talent to kickstart their rebuild and the Giants were a willing trade participant.
Brisbane parted with pick 2 and three minor selections to land picks 3 and 16, which it turned into McCluggage and Berry.
The pair have been best mates since school and remain a core part of a midfield which now rates as arguably the best in the competition.
When all is said and done at the end of their careers, McCluggage and Tim Taranto could be considered the two top picks from the 2016 draft class. That Brisbane was able to land two key pieces for ostensibly the price of one was shrewd business.
They rounded out the key selections that year by taking McInerney with pick 37 in the rookie draft. He was the club’s third and final rookie selection that year and would not debut until round 6, 2018.
He has since evolved into one of the most consistent big men in the game and a cornerstone of Brisbane’s midfield dominance throughout the Fagan era.
2017: THE HAUL
If 2016 was the turning point, 2017 was arguably the most successful off-season of Fagan’s tenure – and it needed to be.
Five wins landed the Lions in last spot that year and with it came the first pick of the draft, which the club used to grab heralded talent Cam Rayner.
A swap of picks with Richmond helped the Lions move up the board and take Zac Bailey with pick 15 before grabbing Brandon Starcevich three picks later with the compensation they received for letting Tom Rockliff depart to Port Adelaide as a restricted free agent.
In those three alone Brisbane has garnered more than 300 games of experience, and that 2017 trio has become a staple of Fagan’s sides throughout its finals campaigns.
With their second selection, via Richmond, they added Academy product Jack Payne, who took time to develop but has blossomed this season as Harris Andrews’ right-hand man in defence.
The Lions had landed a haul in the draft, however, it was two key trades that signalled the club’s high expectations for the near future.
Charlie Cameron and Luke Hodge walked in the door for draft capital the club had stockpiled in 2016.
They turned Pearce Hanley and a 2016 second-round pick into Cameron, while a pair of 2017 late-rounders were bundled together for Hawthorn to trade the rights away to its triple-premiership captain.
It was Cameron’s call to escape the footy bubble of Adelaide for the familiar surrounds of Queensland, where he grew up, and Brisbane had the draft hand to make that reunion a reality.
Hodge was sold the idea of an on-field coaching role by Fagan, who planted the seed with a cheeky text ahead of the Hawthorn legend’s 300th game.
After Hodge’s retirement Fagan again touched base and Brisbane landed one of the recruiting coups of recent memory.
Cameron, of course, remains the focal point of the best attack in the AFL and has two All-Australian jerseys in his locker, while Hodge played a crucial part in helping the Lions transition into a perennial finals contender before permanently retiring at the end of 2019.
2018: THE BIG FISH
For all of Brisbane’s wheeling and dealing, moving up the ladder proved a difficult task.
Another five-win campaign followed in 2018 and it became clear the Lions needed some established talent to fill key posts.
Marcus Adams and Lincoln McCarthy were earmarked and subsequently added during the trade period to offer experience at either end of the ground, but Brisbane still wanted a midfield star to pair with Dayne Beams and Zorko.
Incredibly, Fagan managed to woo two-time Fremantle best-and-fairest winner Lachie Neale away from his adopted home in Perth to take up the new challenge in Queensland.
By Neale’s own admission he had no real reason to leave Fremantle. He had a year left to run on his deal and the Dockers had a similar offer on the table as Brisbane.
His wife, Julie, had just opened a salon in Perth.
But Fagan sold the idea of a bright future to Neale and, six weeks later, the Lions landed their man.
What the club had not banked on was Beams flip-flopping on a decision to stay at the Lions or return to Collingwood.
The 2015 best-and-fairest winner had previously declared his intention to stay at Brisbane, only to renege on that decision late in the piece.
He was ultimately sent back to Collingwood in the final hour of the trade period, scuppering the club’s plans to pair he and Neale together in what would have been a potent midfield combination.
But Beams’ departure was softened not only by the Neale deal, but also the surprise acquisition of Jarryd Lyons as a free agent.
In what remains one of the more bizarre moves in recent years, Gold Coast delisted Lyons after a season in which the midfielder averaged 25 disposals and finished equal-third in clearances across the AFL.
The following year, with its bolstered blend of youth and experience, the Brisbane catapulted up the table to finish second in the home-and-away season before bowing out in straight-sets against Richmond and GWS in the finals.
2020: THE TALL TARGET
By the end of 2020, Brisbane’s profile had changed.
The Lions were suddenly post-season regulars, having finished second in consecutive campaigns.
They earned a maiden finals win under Fagan in the Covid-impacted 2020 season but fell in a heap against the Cats in the prelim two weeks later.
At the 2020 draft they added three players – Blake Coleman, Harry Sharp and Henry Smith – who all remain on the current list, though none have made an impact at AFL level.
But the big get was the signature of wantaway Bombers big man Joe Daniher, who the previous year had signalled his intent to be traded.
Essendon held Daniher to the final year of his deal but he was free to cross as a restricted free agent in 2020 and Fagan’s Lions, needing a tall target to place next to Eric Hipwood, were the perfect fit.
Daniher’s addition was seen by some as the final piece of the puzzle Brisbane needed to properly challenge for the flag.
The key forward has come under scrutiny at times as a Lion, but his 2023 season has been nothing short of outstanding.
Five goals in the qualifying final win over Port Adelaide underpinned his importance to a side that also relies on his skill set in the ruck.
It’s no coincidence that since Daniher arrived at the Gabba the Lions have averaged more than 90 points per game as one of the most potent attacks in the competition.
If Brisbane goes on to win the flag this season, the Daniher get will loom large as one of the major reasons why.
2021: THE HEARTSTOPPER
Building a premiership list is as much about retaining your top talent as it is attracting it.
The Lions had been hamstrung by the Beams move in 2018 and endured more than their share of wantaway players over the club’s lean years.
So when rumours spread that Neale was contemplating a return to Perth, it hit the club like a freight train.
Only a season removed from winning the Brownlow Medal and barely a week after notching 46 disposals in a qualifying final defeat to Melbourne, Neale told the club he was weighing up a return to WA, with his wife due to welcome their first child the following month.
It’s the sliding doors scenario that could have set fire to Fagan’s best laid premiership plans.
The face of the club, off the back of a third failed finals campaign, possibly wanted out.
Days later Neale faced the media to reveal he planned to see out the remaining two years of his contract, before declaring: “I’ve got unfinished business here, I want to be holding up a (premiership) cup in a Lions jersey”.
The following season, Neale would sign a three-year extension tying him to the club to the end of 2026.
Crisis averted.
2022: THE ICING
With Neale’s future secured, Brisbane was breathing a little easier, though it had still failed to crack the preliminary final conundrum.
The Lions ran into a rampant Geelong at the 2022 penultimate hurdle and were punished by the eventual reigning premiers.
Another lesson learned. Back to the drawing board.
It was always a matter of how, not if, Brisbane would land the two prized father-son selections of Will Ashcroft and Jaspa Fletcher in that year’s draft.
The crucial catch was, how much draft capital would it cost?
History says Ashcroft and Fletcher came as ready-made players who both played key roles in their debut AFL seasons. But you never expect the world of a first-year player, and thus the Lions had machinations to snatch Josh Dunkley from the Bulldogs.
It took until the final day of the trade period for the Lions to offer a deal that satisfied the Dogs, and Dunkley landed at the Gabba for pick 21 and a swap of future picks including Brisbane’s 2023 first-rounder.
Incredibly, the Lions also managed to muster up enough draft capital to land triple-premiership Hawk Jack Gunston, adding to a luxury of forward-50 riches.
Capping a stellar off-season was the signature of ex-Bomber Conor McKenna, who spurned a host of suitors – including his former club – to return to the AFL with Brisbane on a one-year deal via the pre-season supplemental selection period.
The Irishman quickly proved he still has the chops to star at AFL level and alongside the speed of Darcy Wilmot, displaced club stalwart Daniel Rich across half-back.
2023: THE FLAG?
On Saturday, Fagan’s masterplan will be put under the microscope once again.
A list painstakingly built over seven seasons will meet the same preliminary final hurdle it has failed to conquer twice before.
There is a feeling, even an expectation, that this will be the season to make that grand final jump.
For the remaining six who welcomed Fagan to the club at the end of 2016, it must feel almost like an eternity.
Fagan has built a premiership-caliber list, but can it salute?
We will soon know the answer.
- Mar 12, 2003
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3KZ is Football
🏆 🦍 RZSS Curator of Sticks and Stuff.
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LOL - it’s called Hagiography. Good luck to him. This is an important game for him and I hope we win it handsomely. If we do, I’d love him to be a Premiership Coach.Geez don't show this to 3KZ is Football
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I think you've missed the point. Look at the list of players who remain from 2016.
3KZ is Football
🏆 🦍 RZSS Curator of Sticks and Stuff.
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Oh yeah, Lester was forgotten. Shoddy.
Murdoch Press - pfft!
Soon as I got a few paragraphs in I thought what about Lester. Behind Rich, has been at the club the longest and has the biggest influence at the club yet this supposed footy journalist completely omits him on more than one occasion. Clown. I gave up reading it less than half way in. I mean what’s the point when someone is writing about the club and clearly has NFI. Up there with the Dogs apparently trading Kai Lohmann to the Hawks this off-season. And these people are supposed professional journalists.
Viceregal
Norm Smith Medallist
Well if they are being paid a living for journalism then they are actual professional journalists ... that being said there are good professional journalists and bad professional journalists and patently to his guy falls into the option two bucket.
Sadly one can be in bucket two and still be above average or even exceptional at your job if the competition is even worse
Not hyperbole but I have hardly read a Foxsports article without an error. No joke.
Sometimes it might be just a spelling or formatting error (often when rushing to get a story out immediately after a game) but quite often it will be something more significant.
- Aug 4, 2012
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Bye
Big moments when the crowd is hostile. Same shit different smell. We lose mentality.
Morbidly_Obese
All Australian
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It's heartbreaking we fired Voss and signed Fagan.
Cubs2Lions
Norm Smith Medallist
Guys chill, it’s literally the first quarter of the match.
Let’s just wait until the final siren before we decide if we can want to cause mayhem and riot for Fages head
- May 3, 2015
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That quarter was 1000% on the players
- May 3, 2015
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Cubs2Lions
Norm Smith Medallist
Moral of the story is don’t critique our coaches after the first quarter
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