Coach Fages and the coaching group

[SpecialBruce]

Any chance we could get David Noble back?

Also why are we wasting McCluggage in the wing? He needs to be our rolls royce mid

We have been missing something since he left

 

[Nunez]

I think Lethal's words ring true: things are never as good or as bad as they seem.

 

[Lion_LegacyXL]

That's a great point.

We've gotten out of jail there a few times and given our record at the Gabba it was only a matter if time before we tripped up.

It was only a point. Ironically there have been games there we perhaps deserved to lose and the one we lost we should have creamed it in.

That's footy.

Yeah and it had me thinking about which games we were fortunate to hold on at Gabba.

Last year we barely held on against Melbourne, Sydney, Geelong and Adelaide at home when those teams had a run of several goals against us. It's been said alot but it's a lack of on field leadership, the players rely too much on the home crowd to lift at critical points in games. We lifted noticeably when they took the lead but the game then turned into a shoot out.

On TV after Carlton would score a goal I don't think I saw our midfield group or our defence get together and communicate to eachother and I don't think I saw Neal, Zorko or Andrews gesture instructions.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I’m not sure what grade kids you teach 3KZ but surely you’d be pulling your hair out if the same kids needed constant learnings after making the same mistakes months after months and here we are talking about grown men that are constantly allowed excuses for the same crap over and over again.

Deja Vu - have a look at Fagan’s presser after we coughed up a 42 point lead in Round 20, 2022 against Richmond. It’s Groundhog Day.

Full post-match, R20: Lions

Watch Brisbane's press conference after round 20's match against Richmond

www.afl.com.au

Then there is the Melbourne game last year, again, where we choked and ended up throwing the game away.

Full post-match, R18: Lions

Watch Brisbane's press conference after round 18's match against Melbourne

www.afl.com.au

Then there is the presser from Friday night. All eerily similar.

Full post-match, OR: Lions

Watch Brisbane’s press conference after opening round against Carlton

www.afl.com.au

If Fagan hasn’t worked it out yet, then we can expect more games like the one against Carlton.

 

[M Malice]

Deja Vu - have a look at Fagan’s presser after we coughed up a 42 point lead in Round 20, 2022 against Richmond. It’s Groundhog Day.

Full post-match, R20: Lions

Watch Brisbane's press conference after round 20's match against Richmond

www.afl.com.au

Then there is the Melbourne game last year, again, where we choked and ended up throwing the game away.

Full post-match, R18: Lions

Watch Brisbane's press conference after round 18's match against Melbourne

www.afl.com.au

Then there is the presser from Friday night. All eerily similar.

Full post-match, OR: Lions

Watch Brisbane’s press conference after opening round against Carlton

www.afl.com.au

If Fagan hasn’t worked it out yet, then we can expect more games like the one against Carlton.

You really think that the Chris Fagan in a Presser is the same Chris Fagan behind closed doors in a review 3KZ?

 

[3KZ is Football]

You really think that the Chris Fagan in a Presser is the same Chris Fagan behind closed doors in a review 3KZ?

Nope. But Chris Fagan at a presser is the same as Chris Fagan at the selection table.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Nope. But Chris Fagan at a presser is the same as Chris Fagan at the selection table.

Why? Because you want it to?

Know what you don't know. And you have no idea what happens at selection, which BTW, is not likely to be Fagan getting his way on everything.

 

[martinson]

Why? Because you want it to?

Know what you don't know. And you have no idea what happens at selection, which BTW, is not likely to be Fagan getting his way on everything.

I actually think the coach usually does.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I actually think the coach usually does.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Correct. Always has been the case.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

I actually think the coach usually does.

Based on what?

 

[McIvor]

Deja Vu - have a look at Fagan’s presser after we coughed up a 42 point lead in Round 20, 2022 against Richmond. It’s Groundhog Day.

Full post-match, R20: Lions

Watch Brisbane's press conference after round 20's match against Richmond

www.afl.com.au

Then there is the Melbourne game last year, again, where we choked and ended up throwing the game away.

Full post-match, R18: Lions

Watch Brisbane's press conference after round 18's match against Melbourne

www.afl.com.au

Then there is the presser from Friday night. All eerily similar.

Full post-match, OR: Lions

Watch Brisbane’s press conference after opening round against Carlton

www.afl.com.au

If Fagan hasn’t worked it out yet, then we can expect more games like the one against Carlton.

When losses like that happen again, which they will, he shouldn’t even bother having a press conference and just provide these old pressers because despite the learnings, nothing ever changes from the coaches to the players.

 

[3KZ is Football]

When losses like that happen again, which they will, he shouldn’t even bother having a press conference and just provide these old pressers because despite the learnings, nothing ever changes from the coaches to the players.

‘Alleged Learnings’

Based on today, he’ll send Lachie Neale out.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Correct. Always has been the case.

In the Manangatang 3rds maybe. What's your experience with modern-day AFL selection committees?

 

[3KZ is Football]

In the Manangatang 3rds maybe. What's your experience with modern-day AFL selection committees?

It seems you have the scoop. Who calls the shots at the Brisbane Lions? Who is constraining Fagan? Do you have evidence of when Fagan, as coach was overruled or unable to secure a selection because the selection committee would not agree? Please share.

I have no experience with AFL selection committees, but about 40 years of experience in the workplace participating in and observing hierarchical and collaborative models of decision making and the way they operate, including how committees and advisory panels function. I was a member of the Australian Education Union (Vic Branch) State and Secondary Sector Councils. I know how appointed leaders, executives, principals and organisational leaders operate. In terms of selection, the buck stops with Fagan. You seem to want to hide him behind Danny Daly, Cameron Bruce, Murray Davis, Dale Morris or whoever else advises about team selection. Fagan is the Head Coach and he wears the opprobrium for team selection when he gets it wrong, which he should.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

It seems you have the scoop. Who calls the shots at the Brisbane Lions? Who is constraining Fagan? Do you have evidence of when Fagan, as coach was overruled or unable to secure a selection because the selection committee would not agree? Please share.

I have no experience with AFL selection committees, but about 40 years of experience in the workplace participating in and observing hierarchical and collaborative models of decision making and the way they operate, including how committees and advisory panels function. I was a member of the Australian Education Union (Vic Branch) State and Secondary Sector Councils. I know how appointed leaders, executives, principals and organisational leaders operate. In terms of selection, the buck stops with Fagan. You seem to want to hide him behind Danny Daly, Cameron Bruce, Murray Davis, Dale Morris or whoever else advises about team selection. Fagan is the Head Coach and he wears the opprobrium for team selection when he gets it wrong, which he should.

Unlike yourself, I don't tend to deal in absolutes or hyperbole. I know the gaps in my knowledge and don't try to pass myself as the font of all knowledge.

I have a little insight into how one of the local QAFL clubs operate and it is remarkably open and collaborative (or at least was at the time I heard it described). Yes, the head coaches opinion carried more weight but he didn't always force his opinions on others. I have no idea what percentage clubs operate like this - it could be in a range between 1% and 99%. And it's a lazy assumption to assume because one club does it this way that all do.

Like you, I've seen over the years how leaders operate in decision-making processes. I've also seen it change significantly over the past 10 years from a top-down approach to a situation where executive managers value the input of technical line managers like myself. But again, it's a lazy assumption that because I've seen that change, that those changes are reflected elsewhere.

So, no, I have no idea of the weight of the head coach's opinions in the selection process. But if he gets his way all the time as people suggest, why bother having a selection committee at all? For mine, I don't discount the influence of Daly into team structure. You are right in that the buck stops with Fagan, but that's just the lot of being a leader. It doesn't always reflect the decision-making process though.

What irks me is the glib comments about certain players having incriminating photos of the coach, or someone being the coaches pet, that over time morph into something uglier and more malevolent. True, all coaches have players they tend to back sometimes at the expense of others, but I'm guessing in a professional sporting environment these are because there are qualities that they perceive as being helpful to the team and not based on a more emotional investment. I'm sure there are high-level coaches in the past and possibly even today who do let emotion override, but in the absence of absolute evidence to suggest otherwise, I choose to go against the trend of assuming the worst in people, and recognise there are things I do not know.

As you may gather, what I particular despise it people forming concrete opinions on the back of a lack of evidence. It's just bad science.

 

[M Malice]

Chris Fagan has evolved his coaching over his tenure at the Lions, he was very much a hands on coach in the early years.

Now he empowers his assistant coaching ranks... and his players to take ownership of the team and push the standards, he has said so many times over the last couple of years.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Unlike yourself, I don't tend to deal in absolutes or hyperbole. I know the gaps in my knowledge and don't try to pass myself as the font of all knowledge.

I have a little insight into how one of the local QAFL clubs operate and it is remarkably open and collaborative (or at least was at the time I heard it described). Yes, the head coaches opinion carried more weight but he didn't always force his opinions on others. I have no idea what percentage clubs operate like this - it could be in a range between 1% and 99%. And it's a lazy assumption to assume because one club does it this way that all do.

Like you, I've seen over the years how leaders operate in decision-making processes. I've also seen it change significantly over the past 10 years from a top-down approach to a situation where executive managers value the input of technical line managers like myself. But again, it's a lazy assumption that because I've seen that change, that those changes are reflected elsewhere.

So, no, I have no idea of the weight of the head coach's opinions in the selection process. But if he gets his way all the time as people suggest, why bother having a selection committee at all? For mine, I don't discount the influence of Daly into team structure. You are right in that the buck stops with Fagan, but that's just the lot of being a leader. It doesn't always reflect the decision-making process though.

What irks me is the glib comments about certain players having incriminating photos of the coach, or someone being the coaches pet, that over time morph into something uglier and more malevolent. True, all coaches have players they tend to back sometimes at the expense of others, but I'm guessing in a professional sporting environment these are because there are qualities that they perceive as being helpful to the team and not based on a more emotional investment. I'm sure there are high-level coaches in the past and possibly even today who do let emotion override, but in the absence of absolute evidence to suggest otherwise, I choose to go against the trend of assuming the worst in people, and recognise there are things I do not know.

As you may gather, what I particular despise it people forming concrete opinions on the back of a lack of evidence. It's just bad science.

A better post.

 

[martinson]

Based on what?

Based on my discussions with people who've sat on selection committees at various levels and in particular the AFL. There was one who coached 4 flags and used to turn up with the team .Anyone was welcome to their say but generally you go along with the coach.

Maybe things have changed and all input is no doubt welcomed but the ultimate responsibility rests with the coach and it would be very rare for someone to not go along with it. Of course there might be rigorous discussions but in the Fagan era our team has pretty much been set and forget unless there are injuries or we blood a youngster for a few games.

 

[Elixuh]

I just want Fages down on the bench again. It’s much more entertaining and I think it helps to keep our players more engaged.

 

[martinson]

Unlike yourself, I don't tend to deal in absolutes or hyperbole. I know the gaps in my knowledge and don't try to pass myself as the font of all knowledge.

I have a little insight into how one of the local QAFL clubs operate and it is remarkably open and collaborative (or at least was at the time I heard it described). Yes, the head coaches opinion carried more weight but he didn't always force his opinions on others. I have no idea what percentage clubs operate like this - it could be in a range between 1% and 99%. And it's a lazy assumption to assume because one club does it this way that all do.

Like you, I've seen over the years how leaders operate in decision-making processes. I've also seen it change significantly over the past 10 years from a top-down approach to a situation where executive managers value the input of technical line managers like myself. But again, it's a lazy assumption that because I've seen that change, that those changes are reflected elsewhere.

So, no, I have no idea of the weight of the head coach's opinions in the selection process. But if he gets his way all the time as people suggest, why bother having a selection committee at all? For mine, I don't discount the influence of Daly into team structure. You are right in that the buck stops with Fagan, but that's just the lot of being a leader. It doesn't always reflect the decision-making process though.

What irks me is the glib comments about certain players having incriminating photos of the coach, or someone being the coaches pet, that over time morph into something uglier and more malevolent. True, all coaches have players they tend to back sometimes at the expense of others, but I'm guessing in a professional sporting environment these are because there are qualities that they perceive as being helpful to the team and not based on a more emotional investment. I'm sure there are high-level coaches in the past and possibly even today who do let emotion override, but in the absence of absolute evidence to suggest otherwise, I choose to go against the trend of assuming the worst in people, and recognise there are things I do not know.

As you may gather, what I particular despise it people forming concrete opinions on the back of a lack of evidence. It's just bad science.

I do believe at the Lions that Daly has a lot of weight and he seems to be the tactical guru on match days.

But the buck stops with Fagan. I also believe it's naive to think coaches wouldn't have an emotional investment in certain players.

There is a collective responsibility in most boards/organisations in this era.

You make a lot of good points but footy clubs are a different beast to large corporate or otherwise organisations. It's a cloistered and controlled environment where you get judged every week for 30 weeks. And you're responsible for the welfare of young men ,many not long out of school. It's not unlike the army in some ways.

 

[martinson]

I just want Fages down on the bench again. It’s much more entertaining and I think it helps to keep our players more engaged.

That I agree with. He also seems to be gnashing teeth in the box whereas on the bench he's more engaged with the moment.

Maybe I'm misguided in thinking it also energised the players a bit.

And exactly ,entertaining for the supporters and the media.

 

[martinson]

Just another observation and in no way a reflection on us or Fagan but people must have noticed that ever since McRae went to Collingwood and decided to put the fun back into playing the players became a hell of a lot more disciplined. Right into the end of seasons.

Whether that has a shelf life or not we shall see.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Based on my discussions with people who've sat on selection committees at various levels and in particular the AFL. There was one who coached 4 flags and used to turn up with the team .Anyone was welcome to their say but generally you go along with the coach.

Maybe things have changed and all input is no doubt welcomed but the ultimate responsibility rests with the coach and it would be very rare for someone to not go along with it. Of course there might be rigorous discussions but in the Fagan era our team has pretty much been set and forget unless there are injuries or we blood a youngster for a few games.

I'm sure that was the case widespread across the industry in the past. But I struggle to believe in the highly corporatised environment in clubs these days that it would continue to be the case. Unless you're talking about Footscray.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Based on my discussions with people who've sat on selection committees at various levels and in particular the AFL. There was one who coached 4 flags and used to turn up with the team .Anyone was welcome to their say but generally you go along with the coach.

Maybe things have changed and all input is no doubt welcomed but the ultimate responsibility rests with the coach and it would be very rare for someone to not go along with it. Of course there might be rigorous discussions but in the Fagan era our team has pretty much been set and forget unless there are injuries or we blood a youngster for a few games.

100%

 

[dlanod]

I'm sure that was the case widespread across the industry in the past. But I struggle to believe in the highly corporatised environment in clubs these days that it would continue to be the case. Unless you're talking about Footscray.

You've got the nerve to say that and even be here. You've been preying on us this whole thread. You barrack for the QAFL. You've been preying on us. You've been opening us up, causing turmoil within our football club by revealing our coaching structure well before it needs to be revealed. Is that the way you want to operate? Is that what you're doing? Is that the gutter poster you want to be? Is that who you want to be?

We go in with a plan. We have some late stuff go on. Everything other than that is according to plan. We need to get to the bottom of this. Your conflict of interest here is considerable. And yet, your gutter posting at the moment is killing us behind the scenes.

The health and wellbeing of people in the game is caught up in all of this stuff. We've got things to concentrate on performance-wise, we've got to look after our own, and then you cause all of this muck-raking trash that happens behind the scenes. Names get brought up into it. All we're doing it planning for a football game. Are you proud of yourself? You're proud of yourself? Wow. That's enough, that's enough. Next poster please. You're not welcome. Well, have you got enough boys and girls? I think we're probably done, aren't we?

This is what happens, because I know … if you found something out, you'd ring Danny Daly and say, 'look I know this … just so you know that I know … something has happened and it's got out'. The courtesy and the integrity and the ethical way to go about it has happened in the past. Now this bloke here and what he's doing, it's giving everyone else a bad name. Right when we're trying to stabilise our competition and what we do, with everything that's gone on behind the scenes and us as coaches and a football program with the soft cap situation as it is, and this sort of stuff happens. You're an embarrassment to what you do, mate. You're an embarrassment. An absolute embarrassment.