Coach Fages and the coaching group

[Section 5]

Beg to differ Dlanod. It seems that when a player is called to "stand" he is left flatfooted and isolated and at risk of giving away a 50m penalty. At the same time, the player with the ball is given enormous latitude to run off at an angle before the "play on" call and it seems to me that rarely does the playmaker take advantage of the 5m you refer to.

Standing back the 5-8 meters does give the defending player (Lions) latitude to move right or left off the mark, but they can't move forward until the umpire calls play on.

However, if the kicker runs directly to that mark that defending player 5-8 meters away cannot move forward as mentioned above.
So,
(a) the kicker (opposition) does not have to kick high over the player that usually stands the mark and of course does not have to kick the ball about 5 meters before he gets to that mark in order to clear that player
(b) the kicker(opposition) can move in a direct line to the mark without the umpire calling play on and then they can veer off the mark and gain more space.
...................................
I posted the below on Review Lions v Carlton thread.

One thing i noticed this game that as a side we only occasionally did in the previous few years.

In Friday nights game the players did not stand on the mark the majority of the time. This has to be a coaching instruction.
Lions have now joined the group of teams that mostly go back the required minimum 5 meters from the mark.
That usually works out to be around the 8 meters as you don't want to give away a 50-meter penalty.

I have no doubt it has some benefits in certain situations but in general i am opposed.
My reason being the players just do it without thinking when it should not be done.

In my opinion anywhere within the 60-meter mark from goal our players should stand on the mark while opposition shooting for goal.
I noticed on two occasions when a Carlton player had a kick on goal, we dropped back that 8 meters. One was on the 50-meter mark, the other just outside the 50-meter mark. We gave them that extra 8 meters for a shot on goal, crazy stuff in my opinion.

Also, man the mark when the ball goes out on the full within the 9-15-meter area when in our forward area.
On a few occasions when we missed scoring just to the boundary side of the point posts we gave the Carlton player too much room for his kick decision.
Instead on manning the mark on the 9-meter line we gave them more room by moving back that extra 8 meters.
This results in less pressure on the Carlton player bringing the ball back into play.

Any mark or free in the center of the ground i also think you should man the mark.
It is too dangerous to give away another non pressure free 8 meters when opposition is kicking to their forwards.

All other situations i don't have a problem with as it has its advantages otherwise coaches would not be using the tactic.

 

[pod17]

I was watching the telecast of some game over the weekend, must have been the Tigers game, and Jack Riewoldt was asked if anything changed in Dimma's coaching that took Richmond from being an also-ran to a premiership team, and his answer was along the lines of, 'he decided to mould his tactics around the players we had,' rather than try and fit those players into some pre-ordained gameplan.

P'raps we just don't have the cattle to play patient lockdown football and would be better off attacking unrelentingly.

That’s an interesting point, and one I hadn’t given much thought to. On reflection, most of our side are naturally more attacking types.
Without being inside the club it’s hard to know what they’re thinking regarding tactics, but I’d guess that they’d be alarmed by the rate we get scored against when the momentum shifts.
The point made earlier about fitness is an interesting one too - Carlton seemed to run out the conditions better than us. Also might explain some of the holes that opened up as the game wore on. Without looking at the stats, Hugh didn’t touch it much after half time, nor did Dunkley or a few others.
Overall, a bit to pay attention to because the likes of GWS, Collingwood, Carlton and one or two others that will no doubt emerge as improved outfits, will have done their homework (as all sides do anyway) and have the ability to expose us in this area.

 

[Dalions]

We as a club were a laughing stock and a complete rabble before Messrs Fagan, Noble and Swann came on board.

IMO Fagan's tenure has been a success flag or not, we are now a club to be proud of.

TBH, I fear for what is to come next!

 

[The Flying Belgian]

As expected, a whole lot of overreaction based on a R1 1 point loss.

 

[briztoon]

Agree, I think our sweet spot for a flag was/is 2023 to 2026.

This is an interesting discussion.

Our window is well and truly open right now. But is it predicated more on one or two key players, or a small group of players, rather than a cohort?

Zorko's last shot this year.

Lester, Lyons, Neale, McCarthy, Daniher, McInerney and Cameron have possibly only one to three seasons left in their window.

Big ask to replace three of those players in Neale, Daniher and Cameron. So is our window closed once those three players performances on field begin to diminish?

I'll go early and say Neale's body really starts letting him down this season.


Then we've got the next age group of Dunkley, Doedee, Ah Chee, McKenna, Gardiner, Andrews and Hipwood.

Then we have Berry, McCluggage, Rayner, Bailey, Starcevich, Payne and Coleman.

Then we have Wilmot, Ashcroft and Fletcher. And a fair group of unproven younger players.

Even though Andrews has been AA before, there's no real standout player/s there, who have shown they can put a team on their back, or an elite x-factor type player who can break open a game in a quarter.

We probably have enough talent to remain a top 8 team for another 6 seasons or so, but we won't be genuine premiership contenders, unless Rayner, McCluggage and Bailey reach genuine AA levels.

It's hard to look beyond this years draft, because we don't know what the new academy bid matching rules will look like.

 

[BangyBangy]

This is an interesting discussion.

I'll go early and say Neale's body really starts letting him down this season.

Based on what?

If anything I'd go the opposite way, Neale will get a longer midfield career than most due to the fact his game doesn't rely on speed or explosive acceleration.

Neale reads the play well, has great hands, a fast mind, finds space quickly, and has impressive lateral evasiveness.

In terms of how long our window is open, who knows, so many variables both for players in & players out, but I think our club is very well placed at the moment, a combination of great management & good fortune.

You seem very negative / chicken little atm.

 

[briztoon]

Based on what?

Being bashed pillar to post most games.

If anything I'd go the opposite way, Neale will get a longer midfield career than most due to the fact his game doesn't rely on speed or explosive acceleration.

I wasn't talking about Neale slowing down. I am talking about succumbing to contact injuries.

Neale reads the play well, has great hands, a fast mind, finds space quickly, and has impressive lateral evasiveness.

In terms of how long our window is open, who knows, so many variables both for players in & players out, but I think our club is very well placed at the moment, a combination of great management & good fortune.

You seem very negative / chicken little atm.

After our first game? lol

Show me the positives out of that game.

f*ck I defended Rayner's performance from the game. I haven't been part of the pile on, on Payne. Haven't been part of the pile on, on Berry either, though I continue to question his shoulders ability to stand up to contact.

What else? I've expressed concerns over multiple seasons about; Our fitness, or apparent lack thereof. Our preponderance to try and shut games down, often way to early and often failing miserably. Fagan's insistence to stick with certain players way to long, before biting the bullet and dropping them.

 

[McIvor]

As expected, a whole lot of overreaction based on a R1 1 point loss.

Hardly.

Used up one of our home games for a loss with only 10 to go and still have double ups against 2023 finalists Collingwood, Melbourne, GWS and St Kilda who most are tipping to make it again and then also Gold Coast another that may crack their maiden final series.

It’s beside the point that we lost by a point but crucial that we dropped four.

Lose next week and then to Pies and I’d say we’ll miss completely such is the difficulty of our draw but sure, dismiss the loss.

 

[briztoon]

Hardly.

Used up one of our home games for a loss with only 10 to go and still have double ups against 2023 finalists Collingwood, Melbourne, GWS and St Kilda who most are tipping to make it again and then also Gold Coast another that may crack their maiden final series.

It’s beside the point that we lost by a point but crucial that we dropped four.

Lose next week and then to Pies and I’d say we’ll miss completely such is the difficulty of our draw but sure, dismiss the loss.

Most are tipping St Kilda to drop out of the 8.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Hardly.

Used up one of our home games for a loss with only 10 to go and still have double ups against 2023 finalists Collingwood, Melbourne, GWS and St Kilda who most are tipping to make it again and then also Gold Coast another that may crack their maiden final series.

It’s beside the point that we lost by a point but crucial that we dropped four.

Lose next week and then to Pies and I’d say we’ll miss completely such is the difficulty of our draw but sure, dismiss the loss.

Didn’t we have a pretty hard draw last year as well and still made top 2 despite a couple of shocking losses?

If the seasons over maybe find a new hobby for the next 7 months?

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

This is an interesting discussion.

Our window is well and truly open right now. But is it predicated more on one or two key players, or a small group of players, rather than a cohort?

Zorko's last shot this year.

Lester, Lyons, Neale, McCarthy, Daniher, McInerney and Cameron have possibly only one to three seasons left in their window.

Big ask to replace three of those players in Neale, Daniher and Cameron. So is our window closed once those three players performances on field begin to diminish?

I'll go early and say Neale's body really starts letting him down this season.


Then we've got the next age group of Dunkley, Doedee, Ah Chee, McKenna, Gardiner, Andrews and Hipwood.

Then we have Berry, McCluggage, Rayner, Bailey, Starcevich, Payne and Coleman.

Then we have Wilmot, Ashcroft and Fletcher. And a fair group of unproven younger players.

Even though Andrews has been AA before, there's no real standout player/s there, who have shown they can put a team on their back, or an elite x-factor type player who can break open a game in a quarter.

We probably have enough talent to remain a top 8 team for another 6 seasons or so, but we won't be genuine premiership contenders, unless Rayner, McCluggage and Bailey reach genuine AA levels.

It's hard to look beyond this years draft, because we don't know what the new academy bid matching rules will look like.

Those three players you mention Rayner, Clugga and bailey.
Spot on , we need these guys to step up in order for us to get up the pointy end even more convincingly.

Clugga I think is almost there, he just needs to be a lot fitter or possibly use his energy more efficiently.
Does he waste his energy, I don't know, but he always seems like he's sucking the big ones in.
maybe other players around him need to pull there own weight , in defending and this might give him a breather. Like I say , I don't know if this is possibly a reason, just a thought or is he just not fit enough?.

Bailey , he seems to be all about attacking , and yes he is elite in this area . BUT.
Get a hard nose for defending and he would be one of the better players in the League.

Rayner, don't know , but I don't believe he will ever be a follower in the midfield.
Keep him forward of centre , and let his midfield moments happen forward of centre.
Never want to see him as a defender , not at all.

Out of those three , I think Bailey could be anything, not confident he has it between the ears though , or is it just simply the penny has to drop, or someone has to get in his ear.
As I said , get Focussed on DEFENDING first then attack.
Learn the art of it.

 

[Schache_off]

It’s interesting the same posters who take pot shots at half our best 22 also think our list guarantees us a premiership and Fagan is the issue

Yeah agreed. There's no doubt that Fagan would have some weaknesses but he cops it all when anything goes wrong. When a team has momentum, it's pretty hard to make one change that is going to stop it other than winning the footy ourselves and intercepting attacks. Fagan can't control that. I honestly think the criticism should be 90% on our midfield for those moments. It takes a while for a msg to get out to all the players if the coaches want a change. We've got an experienced team, they should know what to do by now.

Fagan has alluded to that the leaders are taking a lot of control and ownership just like the review of what went wrong in the grand final. I assume when he says in the press conference he will be interested in what the players say, it's because they should already know what they should have done without him needing to say a thing.

It is concerning that when the opposition really has momentum we can't stop it, it happens once or twice a season but we've always bounced back. The last time that kind of effort was seen was the Gold coast game last year. There's no reason to doubt we're not likely to be top 4 again. Expected scores from our game also has us beating Carlton by 20 points.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Yeah agreed. There's no doubt that Fagan would have some weaknesses but he cops it all when anything goes wrong. When a team has momentum, it's pretty hard to make one change that is going to stop it other than winning the footy ourselves and intercepting attacks. Fagan can't control that. I honestly think the criticism should be 90% on our midfield for those moments. It takes a while for a msg to get out to all the players if the coaches want a change. We've got an experienced team, they should know what to do by now.

Fagan has alluded to that the leaders are taking a lot of control and ownership just like the review of what went wrong in the grand final. I assume when he says in the press conference he will be interested in what the players say, it's because they should already know what they should have done without him needing to say a thing.

It is concerning that when the opposition really has momentum we can't stop it, it happens once or twice a season but we've always bounced back. The last time that kind of effort was seen was the Gold coast game last year. There's no reason to doubt we're not likely to be top 4 again. Expected scores from our game also has us beating Carlton by 20 points.

We seem to want to rotate more players through the midfield and get a more even spread of contributors but I wonder if this leads to complacency and some not willing to stand up and instead let others take control.

We just haven't seen it enough from Berry, Rayner, Bailey and even McCluggage that willingness to impose themselves on the game

 

[martinson]

We seem to want to rotate more players through the midfield and get a more even spread of contributors but I wonder if this leads to complacency and some not willing to stand up and instead let others take control.

We just haven't seen it enough from Berry, Rayner, Bailey and even McCluggage that willingness to impose themselves on the game

Perhaps they don't have the capacity. At least as yet.

I can remember Clug going absolutely beserk in the first quarter of a Bulldogs game in Ballarat a few years ago and imagining he'd be doing that quite regularly. But he's never really done it to that level since.

But it's a good point. We don't want our part time mids to just be an appendage to the core 2 . We want them to give us something extra and significant. If they're able to.

 

[twhowler]

That’s an interesting point, and one I hadn’t given much thought to. On reflection, most of our side are naturally more attacking types.
Without being inside the club it’s hard to know what they’re thinking regarding tactics, but I’d guess that they’d be alarmed by the rate we get scored against when the momentum shifts.
The point made earlier about fitness is an interesting one too - Carlton seemed to run out the conditions better than us. Also might explain some of the holes that opened up as the game wore on. Without looking at the stats, Hugh didn’t touch it much after half time, nor did Dunkley or a few others.
Overall, a bit to pay attention to because the likes of GWS, Collingwood, Carlton and one or two others that will no doubt emerge as improved outfits, will have done their homework (as all sides do anyway) and have the ability to expose us in this area.

I missed larege chunks of 2nd and 3rd quarters so that’s my caveat. But i thought we ran out the game quite well - problem seemed to be a complete lack of composure in getting the ball forward. Berry the culprit twice, fletcher another, Daniher rushed in and got a bloke high when if he got htb we had a near certain goal. All that energy used up for nothing. Admittedly they seemed to have way to much space for the mckay goal.

I think as others have said the stand approach lacked nuance. Should not be done with 75m of goal. Nor if oppo gets an oof next to our goals.

Our kick-in defence is still terrible. So easy to pick a hole through. Been that way for years. We usually don’t get scored against but it also means we don’t lock the ball in.

I’d love to hear what happens in terms of tactics. But it doesn’t seem our strength

Gary O’Donnell did a lot of the tactics during Matthews’ time. I am adamant that’s what fagan needs but club can’t afford it?

I think the club should have figured out a way to afford it even if it meant going over the soft cap. Do it for a couple of years when clearly in the window. Small price to pay if it gets you even one flag.

 

[McIvor]

If the seasons over maybe find a new hobby for the next 7 months?

Like 98, 11, 15 - 17 when the seasons were practically over before they started?

Ridiculous comment.

 

[3KZ is Football]

'Haven't achieved anything yet': Neale sprays 'lazy', selfish Lions

Could not agree more. Not fashionable to say that out loud, but true.

 

[McIvor]

'Haven't achieved anything yet': Neale sprays 'lazy', selfish Lions

Could not agree more. Not fashionable to say that out loud, but true.

I’m sure similar was said after that Melbourne loss last year and again after throwing away the GF. I’m sure most of Lachies thoughts to the players are water off a ducks back and they take no notice because it continuously happens.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I’m sure similar was said after that Melbourne loss last year and again after throwing away the GF. I’m sure most of Lachies thoughts to the players are water off a ducks back and they take no notice because it continuously happens.

I agree. I thought we had this problem addressed after the ‘Learnings’ from the Richmond Choke and the Melbourne Choke.

 

[McIvor]

I agree. I thought we had this problem addressed after the ‘Learnings’ from the Richmond Choke and the Melbourne Choke.

I’m not sure what grade kids you teach 3KZ but surely you’d be pulling your hair out if the same kids needed constant learnings after making the same mistakes months after months and here we are talking about grown men that are constantly allowed excuses for the same crap over and over again.

 

[Lion_LegacyXL]

I agree. I thought we had this problem addressed after the ‘Learnings’ from the Richmond Choke and the Melbourne Choke.

The difference is we've been getting away with these lapses at home for a while now.

 

[western royboy]

Those three players you mention Rayner, Clugga and bailey.
Spot on , we need these guys to step up in order for us to get up the pointy end even more convincingly.

Clugga I think is almost there, he just needs to be a lot fitter or possibly use his energy more efficiently.
Does he waste his energy, I don't know, but he always seems like he's sucking the big ones in.
maybe other players around him need to pull there own weight , in defending and this might give him a breather. Like I say , I don't know if this is possibly a reason, just a thought or is he just not fit enough?.

Bailey , he seems to be all about attacking , and yes he is elite in this area . BUT.
Get a hard nose for defending and he would be one of the better players in the League.

Rayner, don't know , but I don't believe he will ever be a follower in the midfield.
Keep him forward of centre , and let his midfield moments happen forward of centre.
Never want to see him as a defender , not at all.

Out of those three , I think Bailey could be anything, not confident he has it between the ears though , or is it just simply the penny has to drop, or someone has to get in his ear.
As I said , get Focussed on DEFENDING first then attack.
Learn the art of it.

Hughie’s fitness is not an issue, he’s as lean as and does all the work and gives his all - hence why he’s sometimes sucking them in - he plays on the wing - out wide, where sometimes you can drift in and out of games like last week which has always been my biggest worry - when he’s out of the game we generally are as well and most clubs know this - hence he gets a fair bit of attention

 

[golions]

Any chance we could get David Noble back?

Also why are we wasting McCluggage in the wing? He needs to be our rolls royce mid

 

[martinson]

The difference is we've been getting away with these lapses at home for a while now.

That's a great point.

We've gotten out of jail there a few times and given our record at the Gabba it was only a matter if time before we tripped up.

It was only a point. Ironically there have been games there we perhaps deserved to lose and the one we lost we should have creamed it in.

That's footy.

 

[BuntonRules]

That's a great point.

We've gotten out of jail there a few times and given our record at the Gabba it was only a matter if time before we tripped up.

It was only a point. Ironically there have been games there we perhaps deserved to lose and the one we lost we should have creamed it in.

That's footy.

I reckon we blow more than we get out of jail on.