Coach Fages and the coaching group

[zorkoooooooooo]

Could imagine Rich being an absolute weapon playing as a sub for the rest of the year/his career

 

[Gadzorks]

Could imagine Rich being an absolute weapon playing as a sub for the rest of the year/his career

Maybe not - I like a quick sub who can come on and at least tag out the opposition player giving us the most grief.

Still not sold on fort, but get the tall replacement theory.

Wonder how Rich would go clunking marks on the forward 50. We know he can slice the big sticks.

 

[SizeMatters]

The team is playing much better and is much more flexible without Rich and Gunston in the side. I made a call pre-season that Rich wouldn't be best 22 post bye.. of course it got shouted down by posters who are probably a tad too emotionally invested in this team but the proof is in the pudding.

We move the ball quicker, we are more unpredictable for opposition to defend against on the rebound, we can cover defensively much much better than earlier in the season (Dev and Jasper playing a part here too!), which in turn can allow our runners more opportunities to drift froward and play attacking front half footy.

McCarthy being suspended will mean more onus will be put on our forwards to defend but luckily we are up against a shit Weagles team. McCarthy doesn't get a lot of it but he does an immense amount of work on the defensive side of things. If we were up against a top 6 team you would notice his loss.

Hopefully Zorko can come straight back in and play forward/mid as a replacement.

Good job Fages. Whilst you had to get your hands held by two senior players who took the decision making off you I'm glad you are playing some youth instead of plodders like Lyons or Matho (not withstanding they are great servicemen who I respect).

 

[lionsrules]

The team is playing much better and is much more flexible without Rich and Gunston in the side. I made a call pre-season that Rich wouldn't be best 22 post bye.. of course it got shouted down by posters who are probably a tad too emotionally invested in this team but the proof is in the pudding.

We move the ball quicker, we are more unpredictable for opposition to defend against on the rebound, we can cover defensively much much better than earlier in the season (Dev and Jasper playing a part here too!), which in turn can allow our runners more opportunities to drift froward and play attacking front half footy.

McCarthy being suspended will mean more onus will be put on our forwards to defend but luckily we are up against a s**t Weagles team. McCarthy doesn't get a lot of it but he does an immense amount of work on the defensive side of things. If we were up against a top 6 team you would notice his loss.

Hopefully Zorko can come straight back in and play forward/mid as a replacement.

Good job Fages. Whilst you had to get your hands held by two senior players who took the decision making off you I'm glad you are playing some youth instead of plodders like Lyons or Matho (not withstanding they are great servicemen who I respect).

100% this!

 

[SizeMatters]

100% this!

great minds think alike. and we align with Fagan's new philosophy. In Fagan we trust.

 

[3KZ is Football]

The team is playing much better and is much more flexible without Rich and Gunston in the side. I made a call pre-season that Rich wouldn't be best 22 post bye.. of course it got shouted down by posters who are probably a tad too emotionally invested in this team but the proof is in the pudding.

We move the ball quicker, we are more unpredictable for opposition to defend against on the rebound, we can cover defensively much much better than earlier in the season (Dev and Jasper playing a part here too!), which in turn can allow our runners more opportunities to drift froward and play attacking front half footy.

McCarthy being suspended will mean more onus will be put on our forwards to defend but luckily we are up against a s**t Weagles team. McCarthy doesn't get a lot of it but he does an immense amount of work on the defensive side of things. If we were up against a top 6 team you would notice his loss.

Hopefully Zorko can come straight back in and play forward/mid as a replacement.

Good job Fages. Whilst you had to get your hands held by two senior players who took the decision making off you I'm glad you are playing some youth instead of plodders like Lyons or Matho (not withstanding they are great servicemen who I respect).

I agree with most of this, SizeMatters , but I am going to keep saying this, people shouldn’t write Lyons off, especially come finals. He certainly isn’t a ‘plodder’ and he is in a completely different class to Mathieson.

People shouldn’t forget the 2021 Brownlow, where the full Lions vote tally was:

23 – Jarryd Lyons (2233323122)
14 – Dayne Zorko (122333)
10 – Hugh McCluggage (123112
8 – Lachie Neale (323)
6 – Daniel Rich (132)
4 – Joe Daniher (121)
3 – Lincoln McCarthy (21)
3 – Mitch Robinson (3)
2 – Dan McStay (2)
1 – Eric Hipwood (1)
1 – Oscar McInerney (1)
1 – Charlie Cameron (1)

People should remember that Lyons played most of last year with osteitis pubis. He is now fit and in fantastic form in the reserves.

Lyons is a walk up start for senior selection if either Dunkley or Neale are out, but at some point in time, he should be given a run regardless. Like Ryan Lester, Lyons is a pure footballer and I don’t think we should write him off prematurely.

 

[twhowler]

I think a fair way to sum up Fagan re Rich and Gunston is that he did come around the change a lot on here wanted, but it took him quite a while.

There are advantages to being less reactive as a coach - players know where they stand, the team has stability, and veterans often deliver if given time.

But there are downsides. Fringe players leave. Others struggle to stay motivated in the 2s. The team can get stale. And if you wait too long inevitably it at the very least contribute to losing games. Who knows what might have been but our big blip against Hawthorn could have been avoided with a bit more pace and accountability, and it could still cost us top 2.

The obvious caveat is Rich and Gunston both need to be much fitter and in form to come back in, i hope Fagan would approach it this way:

RICH is only a replacement for Kiddy. If another small goes down it should be Madden's spot first. He has been knocking on the door and has SPEED. Fagan himself said the back 7 is working really well. So let's not revert to Rich if say Wilmot goes down. As and aside Lester should have a spot to lose now, not Gardiner back in if fit.

GUNSTON we should again not shift our structure just to accommodate Gunston. If Hippy or Joe miss, Fort should be the replacement as he can bring it to ground at least. Lohmann should also have first dibs on coming back as he is in form (and indeed will play this weekend). Ah Chee worked well. BUT I don't think Gunston is quite as limiting to our side as Rich. He showed briefly in the dogs game what he can do at his best - read the play and convert. If he is moving a LOT better I could handle Gunston being tried in the case of injury to anyone other than hippy or joe.

I really don't see either of them as sub options. They are both very slow. I don't think either of them can play any position other than their desired ones - Gunston did nothing when posted to half back in games.

 

[MSB ROYS]

I think a fair way to sum up Fagan re Rich and Gunston is that he did come around the change a lot on here wanted, but it took him quite a while.

There are advantages to being less reactive as a coach - players know where they stand, the team has stability, and veterans often deliver if given time.

But there are downsides. Fringe players leave. Others struggle to stay motivated in the 2s. The team can get stale. And if you wait too long inevitably it at the very least contribute to losing games. Who knows what might have been but our big blip against Hawthorn could have been avoided with a bit more pace and accountability, and it could still cost us top 2.

The obvious caveat is Rich and Gunston both need to be much fitter and in form to come back in, i hope Fagan would approach it this way:

RICH is only a replacement for Kiddy. If another small goes down it should be Madden's spot first. He has been knocking on the door and has SPEED. Fagan himself said the back 7 is working really well. So let's not revert to Rich if say Wilmot goes down. As and aside Lester should have a spot to lose now, not Gardiner back in if fit.

GUNSTON we should again not shift our structure just to accommodate Gunston. If Hippy or Joe miss, Fort should be the replacement as he can bring it to ground at least. Lohmann should also have first dibs on coming back as he is in form (and indeed will play this weekend). Ah Chee worked well. BUT I don't think Gunston is quite as limiting to our side as Rich. He showed briefly in the dogs game what he can do at his best - read the play and convert. If he is moving a LOT better I could handle Gunston being tried in the case of injury to anyone other than hippy or joe.

I really don't see either of them as sub options. They are both very slow. I don't think either of them can play any position other than their desired ones - Gunston did nothing when posted to half back in games.

Gunston and Rich should just go back to the VFL and play. Form, injuries and team structure should dictate whether they play AFL again.

 

[Elixuh]

It wasn’t unreasonable for fages to give gunston to the bye. Proven player. New system.

Rich is a harder one. Should have been out of the side on form sooner but part of fages trademark which has gotten us to where we are is loyalty and belief in his players. So I don’t begrudge giving rich the opportunity to perform.

 

[mpal6]

Essendon Flashback: If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It…. “

With just 13 words coach Leigh Matthews created a mindset that would change the very psyche of the Brisbane Lions forever.

www.lions.com.au

I had goosebumps reading this one. So many parallels to the current season, after our Hawks loss.

I hope we go close to what we did back in 2001.

 

[Toffee Lion]

Essendon Flashback: If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It…. “

With just 13 words coach Leigh Matthews created a mindset that would change the very psyche of the Brisbane Lions forever.

www.lions.com.au

I had goosebumps reading this one. So many parallels to the current season, after our Hawks loss.

I hope we go close to what we did back in 2001.

I see more similarities to 2003, albeit without flag success from the previous seasons. We even got pumped by West Coast Chris Judd that year by 70 points at the GABBA in Round 12 and lost to the Saints the week earlier in Melbourne.

Port Adelaide & Collingwood looked like locked in favourites for the Grand Final, while we were sitting 3rd and better than the rest.

Hopefully it has the same ending 20 years on

 

[SizeMatters]

I agree with most of this, SizeMatters , but I am going to keep saying this, people shouldn’t write Lyons off, especially come finals. He certainly isn’t a ‘plodder’ and he is in a completely different class to Mathieson.

People shouldn’t forget the 2021 Brownlow, where the full Lions vote tally was:

23 – Jarryd Lyons (2233323122)
14 – Dayne Zorko (122333)
10 – Hugh McCluggage (123112
8 – Lachie Neale (323)
6 – Daniel Rich (132)
4 – Joe Daniher (121)
3 – Lincoln McCarthy (21)
3 – Mitch Robinson (3)
2 – Dan McStay (2)
1 – Eric Hipwood (1)
1 – Oscar McInerney (1)
1 – Charlie Cameron (1)

People should remember that Lyons played most of last year with osteitis pubis. He is now fit and in fantastic form in the reserves.

Lyons is a walk up start for senior selection if either Dunkley or Neale are out, but at some point in time, he should be given a run regardless. Like Ryan Lester, Lyons is a pure footballer and I don’t think we should write him off prematurely.

Yeah I didn’t realise the term plodder referred to spud I had actually forgotten that on this forum. Apologies. I have been using it as someone who is slow. Now I look back I’ve used it about 5 times on this board. I rate lyons but I think we are past playing him UNLESS we lose out on a Neale or Dunkley then he may come into consideration. Good depth. Same as rich and Gunston. But their negatives now outweigh the positives.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I can see why people put them in the same boat SizeMatters , but Lyons is actually in form in the ressies. Again, using a horse racing analogy, before we consider Rich or Gunston for senior selection, they need to have ‘exposed form’ in the reserves, not just Fagan saying both were ‘flying’ on the training track.

 

[Squizz89]

In a team who in the past has been known to pick and choose when to lift their pressure and intensity, I truly am dumbfounded as to why Fages and the coaches are so wedded to this 3 tall idea.

I paid credit to Fages the other week for finally looking past the 3 talls. I don’t think it was any coincidence we put in 2 of our best performances of the year since we made that change.

We should’ve known we were always going to go back to that set up. They couldn’t even completely let it go as they were carrying Fort as the sub for those games anyway.

 

[SizeMatters]

In a team who in the past has been known to pick and choose when to lift their pressure and intensity, I truly am dumbfounded as to why Fages and the coaches are so wedded to this 3 tall idea.

I paid credit to Fages the other week for finally looking past the 3 talls. I don’t think it was any coincidence we put in 2 of our best performances of the year since we made that change.

We should’ve known we were always going to go back to that set up. They couldn’t even completely let it go as they were carrying Fort as the sub for those games anyway.

I think the three tall forward line works if you have a younger Gunston. But he's cooked.

We don't have anyone smart enough to play that third tall position so we may as well just chuck Rayner there who adds that point of difference albeit fleeting and inconsistent.

 

[3KZ is Football]

The spirits are suggesting that people should calm down. Fagan is not REINTRODUCING the THREE TALLS SET UP this week. He reintroduced it last week against Richmond when he had the THREE BIG MEN Daniher, Hipwood and Ah Chee up forward. The voices claim that Fagan’s hand was forced and he had to select Gunston after Ah Chee was injured. Gunston and Ah Chee are so ‘like for like’ that it is hard to tell them apart. The only way you can tell that they are different is if you stand next to them, because Gunston is 6 foot 4 and Ah Chee is 6 foot. Another way to tell them apart is to ask them to run or watch them tackle. Those are the only clues because apart from that the voices say they are like for like, identical and indistinguishable.

 

[p4p1]

I think the three tall forward line works if you have a younger Gunston. But he's cooked.

We don't have anyone smart enough to play that third tall position so we may as well just chuck Rayner there who adds that point of difference albeit fleeting and inconsistent.

3 talls probably works great if all the talls, are playing like Hippy has been recently with the intent to defend and win the ball back. I think maybe coaches themselves are overcomplicating the game by working so hard to a system and trying to fit their players around their system. That's not to say it doesn't have a good impact, hell Ross Lyon teams are a pretty good sample size. But when you have as much talent as we do, I think we are better off changing the system to suit our best 22 players. I think that includes going with 2 talls + Rayner in the forward playing as a marking target and 1 ruck.

 

[M Malice]

3 talls probably works great if all the talls, are playing like Hippy has been recently with the intent to defend and win the ball back. I think maybe coaches themselves are overcomplicating the game by working so hard to a system and trying to fit their players around their system. That's not to say it doesn't have a good impact, hell Ross Lyon teams are a pretty good sample size. But when you have as much talent as we do, I think we are better off changing the system to suit our best 22 players. I think that includes going with 2 talls + Rayner in the forward playing as a marking target and 1 ruck.

Yes IMO you should predominately devise a game plan that takes advantage of your players weapons.... not try to mould players to fit a preconceived game plan.

I distinctly remember Hardwick saying that is what they decided to do going from 2016 and into the 2017 season. I am sure Lethal said something similar as well.

 

[p4p1]

Yes IMO you should predominately devise a game plan that takes advantage of your players weapons.... not try to mould players to fit a preconceived game plan.

I distinctly remember Hardwick saying that is what they decided to do going from 2016 and into the 2017 season. I am sure Lethal said something similar as well.

I remember dimma saying something about preferring to have two key forwards but they only had one so they changed their setup to make it work.

 

[buttermuffs]

Some credit where it’s due with Gunston and Rich. It was clear Gunston was a lot better today in terms of fitness and was running wide really well. Was up against Hunt who was obviously going to run off him but it wasn’t all on him and it’s not like the defence struggled because of it. Punished Hunt on the attack though and kicked 6.2.

Rich played in the VFL and may stay there still unless he comes in for Madden instead of Berry. Very clear that Rich could have easily been selected today instead of Madden but wasn’t. So there is definitely fitness standards there which Gunston hit and Rich did not.

Not suggesting it’s perfect but it’s been a good thing overall.

 

[Squizz89]

Yeah, nah I just don’t have it in me tonight really. All I would say is whoever is responsible for having this group ready to go each week should move on. Whoever is responsible for having us be able to run out 4 quarters should probably move on. And whoever gave the direction to lock a game down with a 4 goal lead with over 10 minutes to play, should also probably move on.

Way to cost ourselves a chance at top 2 and realistically a much better shot at at least making the GF.

 

[010203]

Fages doesn't need a premiership for his tenure to be seen as a success but the club would be negligent if they don't phone Damien Hardwick. Surely this is a better gig than Gold Coast.

 

[KennyP#42]

Enough is enough. Fagan literally goes to water and his emotions get the better of him…. Chewing gum, standing up and being nervous isn’t what you want to see in a tight game. Compared him to the composure shown by Goodwin. Simply out coached tonight

Can he take us the next required step, quite clearly no…. Move on and let’s go for Hardwick

 

[Squizz89]

I know it’s very reactionary after (another) similar type loss, but at some point the question needs to be asked? Has this run it’s race and do we need someone else to get us over whatever these mental hurdles we seem to have?

Or do we need a proper clean out of the assistants after the majority have been there so long?

 

[Nathan Barley]

I know it’s very reactionary after (another) similar type loss, but at some point the question needs to be asked? Has this run it’s race and we need someone else to get us over whatever these mental hurdles we seem to have?

Or do we need a proper clean out of the assistants after the majority have been there so long?

Many were calling for a mini refresh and to move on Lyons, Rich and Zorko investing games into Ashcroft, Dev, Wilmot, etc

I think we missed Dunkley tonight though. Our midfield depth is poor with Ashcroft reserving his A grade games for the gabba