Analysis Father Son Selections

[BLACAE]

Went back and watched the game.
1st qtr

• Cooney was BOG but didn't do a lot of marking, but used the ball well
• Eagleton was also prolific and used the ball really well also.
• Thought 25 (Ruckman) was good too for a big fella. Raw but but hit targets and moved really well as did number 16, both Sudanese boys I think.

2nd qtr

• Cooney and Eagleton a lot quieter but got more of it about halfway through and beyond. They clearly know each other's game.
• 16 still played well, bit of razzle dazzle and moved the ball pretty well. 25 disappeared a bit playing forward. He's clearly a better ruckman than a forward but with his attributes there's no reason he can't do both.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[NthBondiDoggies]

Went back and watched the game.
1st qtr

• Cooney was BOG but didn't do a lot of marking, but used the ball well
• Eagleton was also prolific and used the ball really well also.
• Thought 25 (Ruckman) was good too for a big fella. Raw but but hit targets and moved really well as did number 16, both Sudanese boys I think.

2nd qtr

• Cooney and Eagleton a lot quieter but got more of it about halfway through and beyond. They clearly know each other's game.
• 16 still played well, bit of razzle dazzle and moved the ball pretty well. 25 disappeared a bit playing forward. He's clearly a better ruckman than a forward but with his attributes there's no reason he can't do both.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Thanks for this info.

Did you (or anyone else) see the second half?

 

[flipper83]

Taken from Rookie centrals scouting notes from the Vic Metro trial games.

Croft kicked 2 of 5 goals in a heavy loss

#23 Jordan Croft (Calder Cannons)
12/05/2005 | 200cm | 80kg | Key Forward

It was an indifferent kind of day for Croft, who showed some really nice signs but also saw the other side of the coin. The Western Bulldogs father-son candidate nailed goals in the second and third terms, with the latter being a dextrous snap deep inside 50. He wasted a few other opportunities throughout the game, including a kick into the man on the mark, but has the kind of rare athleticism and potential at 200cm that will get recruiters excited

 

[doggies ftw]

Taken from Rookie centrals scouting notes from the Vic Metro trial games.

Croft kicked 2 of 5 goals in a heavy loss

#23 Jordan Croft (Calder Cannons)
12/05/2005 | 200cm | 80kg | Key Forward

It was an indifferent kind of day for Croft, who showed some really nice signs but also saw the other side of the coin. The Western Bulldogs father-son candidate nailed goals in the second and third terms, with the latter being a dextrous snap deep inside 50. He wasted a few other opportunities throughout the game, including a kick into the man on the mark, but has the kind of rare athleticism and potential at 200cm that will get recruiters excited

Rare athleticism at 200cm

Naughty, Marra, Darcy, English, Croft - an avg of probably 203cm and all stupidly athletic.

We ‘bout to change the game

 

[BLACAE]

Thanks for this info.

Did you (or anyone else) see the second half?

No, just those first two qtrs.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[TiAn_]

Taken from Rookie centrals scouting notes from the Vic Metro trial games.

Croft kicked 2 of 5 goals in a heavy loss

#23 Jordan Croft (Calder Cannons)
12/05/2005 | 200cm | 80kg | Key Forward

It was an indifferent kind of day for Croft, who showed some really nice signs but also saw the other side of the coin. The Western Bulldogs father-son candidate nailed goals in the second and third terms, with the latter being a dextrous snap deep inside 50. He wasted a few other opportunities throughout the game, including a kick into the man on the mark, but has the kind of rare athleticism and potential at 200cm that will get recruiters excited

Stop exciting recruiters, Jordan.

 

[Smiley Boy]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Jaxon Cooney ends up being a top 5 pick the kid is a freak

 

[BulldogMuscle]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Jaxon Cooney ends up being a top 5 pick the kid is a freak

Just waiting for the AFL to change the rules around F/S because of us

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

Taken from Rookie centrals scouting notes from the Vic Metro trial games.

Croft kicked 2 of 5 goals in a heavy loss

#23 Jordan Croft (Calder Cannons)
12/05/2005 | 200cm | 80kg | Key Forward

It was an indifferent kind of day for Croft, who showed some really nice signs but also saw the other side of the coin. The Western Bulldogs father-son candidate nailed goals in the second and third terms, with the latter being a dextrous snap deep inside 50. He wasted a few other opportunities throughout the game, including a kick into the man on the mark, but has the kind of rare athleticism and potential at 200cm that will get recruiters excited

Everything I read about Croft is more about athleticism and potential, rather than football ability. Which screams backman rather than forward. Hope they keep playing him as a forward and we can get him for a 4th rounder

 

[flipper83]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Jaxon Cooney ends up being a top 5 pick the kid is a freak

Where is he playing this year? Is he playing NAB league?

I know he's still a long way of draft age but I don't think he made the VIC metro u16 squad.

 

[Nat Fyfe]

Just waiting for the AFL to change the rules around F/S because of us

They really do need to address how unbalanced the system is though. Last couple years there's been Ashcroft, Darcy and Daicos in the first handful of picks, and all three were acquired by "matching" with a bunch of rubbish second and third rounders for the most part. I'm stoked we keep benefitting from it, but I'd be pretty filthy if I was a fan of another club who gets nothing from F/S or academies, and sees us getting the constant 20% discount.

 

[Bald]

They really do need to address how unbalanced the system is though. Last couple years there's been Ashcroft, Darcy and Daicos in the first handful of picks, and all three were acquired by "matching" with a bunch of rubbish second and third rounders for the most part. I'm stoked we keep benefitting from it, but I'd be pretty filthy if I was a fan of another club who gets nothing from F/S or academies, and sees us getting the constant 20% discount.

If it were up to me, I'd cap it at a club being able to match a father son bid once every 5 years.

 

[doggies ftw]

They really do need to address how unbalanced the system is though. Last couple years there's been Ashcroft, Darcy and Daicos in the first handful of picks, and all three were acquired by "matching" with a bunch of rubbish second and third rounders for the most part. I'm stoked we keep benefitting from it, but I'd be pretty filthy if I was a fan of another club who gets nothing from F/S or academies, and sees us getting the constant 20% discount.

I’m filthy of clubs getting priority picks for being shit, or the northern academy’s breeding top 3 picks every year for Sydney but it is what it is, every club has the same opportunity for F/Ss at least (obvious expansion sides excluded) - what goes around comes around - we obviously put work into these kids from a young age, I wonder if that is done by every club or some don’t mind.

Besides we benefitted with Libba, and to a lesser extent Wallis/Hunter, we lost out big time on Ayce, jury still out on Darcy/West. I dunno it hasn’t exactly been a raging success but it’s a nice touch for fans

 

[doggies ftw]

If it were up to me, I'd cap it at a club being able to match a father son bid once every 5 years.

Why? What relevance does that have to anything. You might have 3 F/Ss come through in the same year but then none for a decade, how is putting an arbitrary random number of 5 years on it fair for anyone

 

[flipper83]

I think the discount should be removed. If anything there should be a surcharge for being able to take a top player with later picks.

 

[dogwatch]

They really do need to address how unbalanced the system is though. Last couple years there's been Ashcroft, Darcy and Daicos in the first handful of picks, and all three were acquired by "matching" with a bunch of rubbish second and third rounders for the most part. I'm stoked we keep benefitting from it, but I'd be pretty filthy if I was a fan of another club who gets nothing from F/S or academies, and sees us getting the constant 20% discount.

Disagree that the matching was done with a bunch of rubbish second and third rounders. We are hurting a bit right now for not having those "rubbish" picks to build our B-grade depth while at the same time we are still waiting for Darcy and Marra to grow into their potential. Darcy isn't even getting a game right now. Hopefully long term it will pay off for us.

However I agree that the 20% discount should go. Or at least be reduced to 10%.

If it were up to me, I'd cap it at a club being able to match a father son bid once every 5 years.

The point of it was always to retain the emotional links and "romance" of a family dynasty playing at one club (Fletchers at Essendon, Darcys at WB, etc). This would drastically undercut that idea. For instance you could have two brothers (eg the Wests or the Crofts or the Darcys) both showing AFL potential but only one of them would join the father's club. So if you start down that path you might as well scrap the whole thing.

Perhaps a case could be made that outrageously high talent (say a pick in the top 5 or 10) should not be quarantined by the FS rule. Such a rule would have put Daicos and Darcy on the open market. I'd favour top 8 or 10 rather than top 5 because the system could quite easily be gamed to stop a bid coming if there are only a handful of clubs to bribe. Much harder if it's top 10.

Or another idea: if a bid comes in the top 10 the club can match but must pay a 10% surcharge on draft points (instead of a 20% discount), and if the bid comes in the 11-20 range they have to pay a 5% surcharge. After that they only have to match at the appropriate points value (no discount). Under a system like that you'd have to be pretty certain you had a gem if you decided to match a top end pick. Collingwood would probably still have matched Daicos at #4. I doubt we would have been able to match for Darcy at #1 even if we'd wanted to. Brisbane would still have matched Ashcroft (#2).

What really needs to happen though is some measure to stop the wink-wink bribes and quid-pro-quos that cause clubs not to bid for a player at his true value. You could argue that both the Daicos and Ashcroft bids were later than they should have (but I have no idea if those particular cases were due to shady dealings). No idea how you do that in an auction based system.

 

[Nat Fyfe]

If it were up to me, I'd cap it at a club being able to match a father son bid once every 5 years.

TBH not sure how I feel about it. Would suck missing out on Darcy because we took West within that 5 year period, given the Darcy name has stronger ties to the club than West.

I’m filthy of clubs getting priority picks for being s**t, or the northern academy’s breeding top 3 picks every year for Sydney but it is what it is, every club has the same opportunity for F/Ss at least (obvious expansion sides excluded) - what goes around comes around - we obviously put work into these kids from a young age, I wonder if that is done by every club or some don’t mind.

Besides we benefitted with Libba, and to a lesser extent Wallis/Hunter, we lost out big time on Ayce, jury still out on Darcy/West. I dunno it hasn’t exactly been a raging success but it’s a nice touch for fans

Two wrongs don't make a right. West Coast have had next to zero benefit from academies or father sons since Cousins in 1995. I'm not arguing against Father/Son existing, just saying it's ridiculous we get the discount to go with it. I would argue it should come at a premium to bid match (i.e. apply a 20% premium, not discount. Make clubs trade real assets if they want exclusive rights to a top player)

Disagree that the matching was done with a bunch of rubbish second and third rounders. We are hurting a bit right now for not having those "rubbish" picks to build our B-grade depth while at the same time we are still waiting for Darcy and Marra to grow into their potential. Darcy isn't even getting a game right now. Hopefully long term it will pay off for us.

However I agree that the 20% discount should go. Or at least be reduced to 10%.

But it was objectively true that we entered the draft with second and third rounders which were worth nowhere near what a top pick is. Yes, it cost us the chance at selecting in the middle of the draft, but that was a conscious choice and I'm certain 100% of clubs would do the same thing if given the opportunity.

 

[weltschmerz]

I’d remove the discount and make it so that you had to include a pick in the same round as the bid while matching. Darcy or JUH would have needed a first plus points elsewhere to make up the balance.

 

[Bald]

Why? What relevance does that have to anything. You might have 3 F/Ss come through in the same year but then none for a decade, how is putting an arbitrary random number of 5 years on it fair for anyone

Because I think typically a team is in it's window for around 5 years. I don't think it helps the competition in the slightest if teams in their premiership window are receiving very high end talent on a silver platter.

If a team is fortunate or unfortunate enough to be in the situations you've listed then that's just how it goes.

 

[dogwatch]

But it was objectively true that we entered the draft with second and third rounders which were worth nowhere near what a top pick is. Yes, it cost us the chance at selecting in the middle of the draft, but that was a conscious choice and I'm certain 100% of clubs would do the same thing if given the opportunity.

That's a debatable point. It's similar to the debate about would you swap three first rounders for pick#1 to get Harley Reid? For a start the best player in each year's draft is rarely the one who went at pick #1. Sometimes it's a player who went in the teens (eg your namesake Fyfe went about 18-19 I think). Even if Darcy becomes a genuine star (yet to be proved) there is an argument that we could have got 2-3 really good players out of those 4-5 later picks who collectively give us more than Darcy will and provide a much better list balance. Finally there's the risk of investing all your draft assets in one player. What if he's injured and never reaches the heights expected (eg Cooney after he cracked his patella). Or what if he is just a dud? eg Ayce Cordy never lived up to the expectations of his first round bid which we matched (#13 I think).

Is it "objectively" true? Well it's self-evident that each of those lower bids is not worth what the higher bid is. But no I can't agree that it's "objectively true" that collectively they aren't worth what we paid for Darcy. It's just a matter of opinion. You think they aren't, I'm undecided.

Don't forget that the AFL had a bunch of consultants model the points system based on past performance before it was officially introduced in 2015. Their opinion (FWIW) is that the points system reflected the reality of the draft market and the careers of players chosen at every pick over the period of their analysis. Perhaps they should do another iteration based on the 8 years or so since the last modelling was done - clubs are getting better and smarter in their drafting all the time - but I think that apart from the 20% discount it's a transparent and reasonably fair system. And that's pretty unusual for the AFL.

 

[Bulldog rick]

Just leave the father/son rules as they are now.

 

[scooter600x]

I think it should go the other way.

All father sons should be free and the games limit should be reduced to 1 game. If you breed them, they're yours. We need the focus to be back on 'Clubs' as distinct from 'Franchises'.

They should scrap priority picks altogether and I don't like NGAs and northern academies, either, scrap them, too.

 

[Libba39]

Number 10 for us i'm pretty sure is Lukas Eagleton
Strong marking ability

Any early signs of hair loss???

 

[flipper83]

Disagree that the matching was done with a bunch of rubbish second and third rounders. We are hurting a bit right now for not having those "rubbish" picks to build our B-grade depth while at the same time we are still waiting for Darcy and Marra to grow into their potential. Darcy isn't even getting a game right now. Hopefully long term it will pay off for us."

You have to keep in mind that we traded our second round pick in 2019 for Bruce and our future second for Keith.
Then in 2020 we got the number one pick, plus Treloar and had to use future picks to help get that across the line.
Then in 2021 we got the number 2 pick without having a second or third round selection (Hannan trade).

So really it was our trade acquisitions that impacted our ability to have second and third round picks.

It does require some creative trading but teams are usually able to use the bid matching process to gain extra early picks.

 

[Randomthoughts]

Any early signs of hair loss???

A Juvenile bald eagle is an individual in its first plumage.

Scouts have noted full plumage however an insider mentioned he may need advanced hair consult by his 22/23 year .