Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK

[gab213]

TDK and Pitto cannot be in the same side. Modern game doesn’t allow it. Too much need for pressure and ability to dispose well. Play TDK and chop out with GSOS, Harry in the forward line etc. It’s all been said before Pitto needs more strings.

Still expecting Pittonet too be the number one ruckman and TDK as number 2. They will play in the same side more often than not, TDK is nowhere near ready to assume sole responsibility as a lone ruckman.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I agree with everything you've mentioned, but where do you fit both TDK and Pitto in the 22?

You can keep the spare ruck on the bench and rotate him forward, but then you'll end up with Harry, Charlie, JSOS and the 2nd ruck in the same forward line at the same time - personally I think that's too tall and slow.

I would only play TDK, thats my point. Playing Pitto as well limits our ceiling (even tho it makes it easier for coaching).

 

[Justnetime]

Disagree, I think against the better (ruck) sides, you almost need two rucks to work over a Max Gawn type......

That could work in reverse. We could just end up with two ruckman getting smashed and having no point of difference to counter.

Melbourne play two ruckman because that is where their quality is. For Carlton right now, that is where our worst quality is.

 

[katmanblue]

I would only play TDK, thats my point. Playing Pitto as well limits our ceiling (even tho it makes it easier for coaching).

Can't play Pitto, Cripps and Dow/Kennedy in the same midfield. Opposition just waltz straight through.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

That could work in reverse. We could just end up with two ruckman getting smashed and having no point of difference to counter.

Melbourne play two ruckman because that is where their quality is. For Carlton right now, that is where our worst quality is.

Of course it 'could'....

But I don't think Jackson is anyone either Pitto or TDK would fear....

And let's be honest, if Gawn happened to have been injured late in the season, Dees would not have been in the GF, let alone winning it!

 

[BigBreakfast]

Of course it 'could'....

But I don't think Jackson is anyone either Pitto or TDK would fear....

And let's be honest, if Gawn happened to have been injured late in the season, Dees would not have been in the GF, let alone winning it!

Did you watch Jackson in the second half of last season? He would butcher Pitto around the ground. More flexible than either of our guys atm.

 

[juzza316]

Of course it 'could'....

But I don't think Jackson is anyone either Pitto or TDK would fear....

And let's be honest, if Gawn happened to have been injured late in the season, Dees would not have been in the GF, let alone winning it!

yeh but he kicked 5 in a prelim and now is a premiership captain so your hypothetical counts for absolutely zero

 

[gbatman]

DeKoning is a 22 year old ruckman who hasn't played on the back of a good preseason yet. We're talking about him as if he's a 25 year old who has had ample opportunities to prove himself. We haven't seen the best of him and what we see next year will be better than what we have seen. He'll play as our number one ruckman however I am doubtful Pittonet fits into our team with him, unless DeKoning get's his forward game going.

Disagree, I think against the better (ruck) sides, you almost need two rucks to work over a Max Gawn type......

You need a third tall defender, we haven't had a good one since Marchbank's last game and you need a ruckman who is good enough and fit enough which we haven't had yet. Two rucks would be the alternative but you lose a lot if one can't go forward and impact.

 

[BlueJet]

DeKoning is a 22 year old ruckman who hasn't played on the back of a good preseason yet. We're talking about him as if he's a 25 year old who has had ample opportunities to prove himself. We haven't seen the best of him and what we see next year will be better than what we have seen. He'll play as our number one ruckman however I am doubtful Pittonet fits into our team with him, unless DeKoning get's his forward game going.




You need a third tall defender, we haven't had a good one since Marchbank's last game and you need a ruckman who is good enough and fit enough which we haven't had yet. Two rucks would be the alternative but you lose a lot if one can't go forward and impact.

TDK as a developing ruck, at present is more hype than substance.
For all of the excitement over what he could be there's still a lot of work to be done before he's a genuine number one ruck.
He needs time to develop, I'm sure that there'll be games spent in the VFL or where he's played predominantly forward & that's completely fine.

 

[gbatman]

TDK as a developing ruck, at present is more hype than substance.
For all of the excitement over what he could be there's still a lot of work to be done before he's a genuine number one ruck.
He needs time to develop, I'm sure that there'll be games spent in the VFL or where he's played predominantly forward & that's completely fine.

I think he's probably getting past the developing stage. I don't see why, if he's fit he would still be considered a developing ruck. I think all we need to do is get him fit and we'll have a pretty good ruckman on our hands. If he's fit he will be in the AFL side.

Our ruck issues come mostly from not having a third tall defender and our midfield being defensively poor/slow. Our rucks have been serviceable. Pitoned did a good job last year when he was fit and DeKoning played well enough after an injury layoff to suggest he can hold the number one ruck spot.

 

[BlueJet]

I think he's probably getting past the developing stage. I don't see why, if he's fit he would still be considered a developing ruck. I think all we need to do is get him fit and we'll have a pretty good ruckman on our hands. If he's fit he will be in the AFL side.

Our ruck issues come mostly from not having a third tall defender and our midfield being defensively poor/slow. Our rucks have been serviceable. Pitoned did a good job last year when he was fit and DeKoning played well enough after an injury layoff to suggest he can hold the number one ruck spot.

It's because on current output, he does very little.
There's a hell of a lot of development left in TDK which is pretty exciting.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

DeKoning is a 22 year old ruckman who hasn't played on the back of a good preseason yet. We're talking about him as if he's a 25 year old who has had ample opportunities to prove himself. We haven't seen the best of him and what we see next year will be better than what we have seen. He'll play as our number one ruckman however I am doubtful Pittonet fits into our team with him, unless DeKoning get's his forward game going.




You need a third tall defender, we haven't had a good one since Marchbank's last game and you need a ruckman who is good enough and fit enough which we haven't had yet. Two rucks would be the alternative but you lose a lot if one can't go forward and impact.

That's the bottom line.

TDK isn't 'ready' to be a #1 ruck for a full season....and for sure, playing two rucks is pretty much overkill - and robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I just think it's unwise, at this stage, to leave TDK to it alone....perhaps if Young is playing he gives a chop out....

Personally, I'd play Pitto as #1 ruck, first chunk of the season, let TDK learn his craft in the 2s some more.....

Or literally choose on a sort of week by week basis?

TDK's fine against the Tim English types, will get beaten up by the more mature heavier rucks eg the Freo monster!

 

[gbatman]

That's the bottom line.

TDK isn't 'ready' to be a #1 ruck for a full season....and for sure, playing two rucks is pretty much overkill - and robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I just think it's unwise, at this stage, to leave TDK to it alone....perhaps if Young is playing he gives a chop out....

Personally, I'd play Pitto as #1 ruck, first chunk of the season, let TDK learn his craft in the 2s some more.....

Or literally choose on a sort of week by week basis?

TDK's fine against the Tim English types, will get beaten up by the more mature heavier rucks eg the Freo monster!

I think they should be rotated anyway. I think TDK is ideal to rest deep forward next season and play a less tolling game sitting behind the play in general. He should come on quick now.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

I think they should be rotated anyway. I think TDK is ideal to rest deep forward next season and play a less tolling game sitting behind the play in general. He should come on quick now.

Fine but let's see him take a VFL game by the throat as a ruck/resting forward first.

Ideally, kick a few bags of 3 or 4 or more!

Has he ever kicked more than 1 in a game?

 

[katmanblue]

I reckon Durdin should be our first choice ruck.

 

[BigBreakfast]

DeKoning is a 22 year old ruckman who hasn't played on the back of a good preseason yet. We're talking about him as if he's a 25 year old who has had ample opportunities to prove himself. We haven't seen the best of him and what we see next year will be better than what we have seen. He'll play as our number one ruckman however I am doubtful Pittonet fits into our team with him, unless DeKoning get's his forward game going.




You need a third tall defender, we haven't had a good one since Marchbank's last game and you need a ruckman who is good enough and fit enough which we haven't had yet. Two rucks would be the alternative but you lose a lot if one can't go forward and impact.

And, Pitto can’t consistently impact. Nice reserve, not best 22.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

And, Pitto can’t consistently impact. Nice reserve, not best 22.

Impact?

All he has to do is negate the opposition ruck - a lot of the time that's a win.

I reckon you underestimate Pitto.

Sure he needs to learn to do more around the ground, but he's just 25yo and with only 33 games under his belt.

Only 10 games more than TDK!!

 

[BigBreakfast]

Impact?

All he has to do is negate the opposition ruck - a lot of the time that's a win.

I reckon you underestimate Pitto.

Sure he needs to learn to do more around the ground, but he's just 25yo and with only 33 games under his belt.

Only 10 games more than TDK!!

And lacks mobility and fundamental skills. His mobility, agility and athleticism should be impactful at 25. Just negate? Setting a very low bar for the ruck role. I’d like an intercept marker with the ability to go forward and impact the scoreboard. King does those things, Pitto can’t.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

And lacks mobility and fundamental skills. His mobility, agility and athleticism should be impactful at 25. Just negate? Setting a very low bar for the ruck role. I’d like an intercept marker with the ability to go forward and impact the scoreboard. King does those things, Pitto can’t.

At a minimum.

Wasn't that implied?

 

[AlecDuncan]

I'm getting tired of saying it, but Pitto was 2nd or 3rd in the league for taps to advantage until he got injured. He might not run out games, but he's effective while he can.

He's also surprisingly not terrible to handball to, and I'm a "never handball to a ruckman" type.

 

[Bletch]

I'm getting tired of saying it, but Pitto was 2nd or 3rd in the league for taps to advantage until he got injured. He might not run out games, but he's effective while he can.

He's also surprisingly not terrible to handball to, and I'm a "never handball to a ruckman" type.

Pitto was 6th in the comp in 2021 for Hit Outs to Advantage (HOA) per match. Which does sound great. But HOA can be a misleading stat when looked at by its own.

Consider this...
Ruckman A contests 80 ruck contests in a match, wins 30 of them, and of those he wins, 10 go to advantage.
Ruckman B contests 40 ruck contests, wins 20 of them, and 8 go to advantage.

Ruckman A has won more hit outs and has a higher HOA than Ruckman B. But is he "better"? Ruckman B is winning 50% of his ruck contests (vs 37.5%) and has a HOA Rate (i.e. % of hit outs won that go to advantage) of 40% (vs. 33.3%).

Pitto is more of a "Ruckman A" type. He gets to a lot of contests in the matches he plays, and his raw Hit Out and HOA stats look good. (8th in comp for Hit Outs, and as said above 6th in comp for HOA). But his Hit Outs Won is just 42.6%, 23rd in comp; and HOA Rate is 34%, 22nd in comp.

Pitto is a workhorse. He goes all day, works hard up and down the ground and makes plenty of contests. But I wouldn't call him effective. Also worth noting he has little impact around the ground, averaging just 2 marks per game (0.3 contested). If he is to play alongside TDK, this is the part of the game he needs to improve most. We can't have two ruckmen in the side who don't have impact outside of ruck contests.

It's worth noting that Pitto is still ahead of TDK in pretty much every stat for ruckmen - TDK is ahead in Marks per game (3.1 v 2). But we're all expecting that TDK has a lot more room to improve than Pitto does.

Personally, I'd love to see both improve to the point they can play in the same side. But that's a ways off on this year's form.

 

[BigBreakfast]

At a minimum.

Wasn't that implied?

No. You said just needs to negate. I want more than that.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Pitto was 6th in the comp in 2021 for Hit Outs to Advantage (HOA) per match. Which does sound great. But HOA can be a misleading stat when looked at by its own.

Pitto is a workhorse. He goes all day…

1. Hitouts to advantage >> hitouts won, as a meaningful stat.
2. Pitto *doesn’t* go all day. He’s knackered after three quarters. It’s one reason teams regularly ran over the top of us. I’m hoping that’ll improve, or alternatively we can also play TDK as a forward-ruck in Levi’s mold.

They both have a way to go yet. Like you, I’d love to see it.

 

[Bletch]

1. Hitouts to advantage >> hitouts won, as a meaningful stat.
2. Pitto *doesn’t* go all day. He’s knackered after three quarters. It’s one reason teams regularly ran over the top of us. I’m hoping that’ll improve, or alternatively we can also play TDK as a forward-ruck in Levi’s mold.

They both have a way to go yet. Like you, I’d love to see it.

1. My point is that the raw numbers for both Hitouts to Advantage and Hitouts need to be seen in the context of the number of ruck contests a player makes. When Pitto plays, he makes a lot of contests (68.5 per match - 4th in comp). The more contests you make, the higher these stats will be. What is more important than both of these raw stats is:
"Hitouts to Advantage RATE" - i.e. of the number of hitouts you win, what percentage of them go to advantage (Pitto 22nd in comp)
"Hitout Win Percentage" - of the number of hitouts you contest, what percentage do you win (Pitto 23rd in comp)*

2. He might be knackered, but he's making more ruck contests per match than all bar 3 other ruckmen in the comp - isn't that a fair indication of workrate?

* These "positions in comp" are a little skewed by part-time ruckmen, but even ignoring them he comes in around 15th

 

[Arr0w]

Pitto does well against non jumping ruckmen and is completely inept as a resting forward