Bletch
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It's why Caz was valuable. We're going to miss him (though not his 2021 form/fitness).
Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK
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It's amazing actually, when Levi was in the side this year, Harry averaged more marks and goals, than when Levi wasn't on the park.
Not about Levi as such, more about having a 2nd forward/ruck option
And the fact that Levi presenting up FWD drew defenders and freed Harry up.
Justnetime
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JSoS is an interesting debate in itself.
If he did it regularly, could be exploited for 5-10 min spells.
On the other hand, someone like Young is probably going to try and actually ruck while being too short and lose. JSoS takes a different angle. He knows he is uncompetitive in the tap out, so goes for the ground ball or tackle. Can be extremely effective adding that extra ground player when you have a dumb opposition ruckman. And some of the ruckman are simply playing because they are tall.
Doubt young wins a tap and doubt he has any value on the ground or in transition. I can only see him as a sacrificial lamb.
If he did it regularly, could be exploited for 5-10 min spells.
On the other hand, someone like Young is probably going to try and actually ruck while being too short and lose. JSoS takes a different angle. He knows he is uncompetitive in the tap out, so goes for the ground ball or tackle. Can be extremely effective adding that extra ground player when you have a dumb opposition ruckman. And some of the ruckman are simply playing because they are tall.
Doubt young wins a tap and doubt he has any value on the ground or in transition. I can only see him as a sacrificial lamb.
Bletch
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Levi at his best was athletic, hit packs hard, took plenty of contested marks, and provided a more than useful second ruck option. Just prone to inexplicable errors and poor disposal.
Justnetime
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Caz was valuable in that sense. It is also true to say caz was not valuable in a lot of other facets.
Played sore/injured for the first 10 weeks of 2021 and was just horrible. I only point that out as it highlights a number of really dumb things at Carlton. Russell and the match committee first letting him play. Secondly, Cas not using his own brain to say I’m just not close at all.
He was excruciating. And this is not a pick on cas style post. He has been better by a long shot in the past. I’m still glad we have moved on though.
Bletch
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Don't disagree at all - he was horrible this year - nowhere near ready to play.
Justnetime
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Agree on your key point on second line.
Really don’t like the idea of plumping for a useless forward decoy Which Casbault was in 2021. I get why Carlton did it maybe with exception that McDonald was ready for at least one of those games before injury. Glad Teague is gone, still worried on Russell on playing underdone players.
Long term the decoy is poor in terms of list strategy and gameday tactics.
Not suggesting a decoy, moreso a hit up/workhorse CHF/chopout ruckman
This is true, but I think having a fit Charlie up there will more than make up for the attention Levi took away from Harry (big IF I know).
Just highlighting this bit, it’s worth noting that Young is only 1cm shorter than Pittonet.
Perhaps you’ve seen the ‘key/3rd tap def’ comments and assumed he’s not as tall as he actually is?
I’m not sure about technique/‘ruck craft’, but I would think height shouldn’t be an issue. Appears to have pretty long levers too.
He’s got a pretty good advantage there compared to Jack, being some 3” taller, with longer arms, and probably better high reach as I don’t think he’s had the same shoulder troubles as Jack.
WFGodot
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Agree but we need blokes to be more physically assertive and show the potential for menace. Not stupid thuggery but real steel at the contest.
We don’t have enough players with natural aggression who make the opposition think twice.
I'm hoping Voss insists on a more ruthless style of play.
Back on topic, Pittonet easily covers TDK for strength and aggression but TDK is clearly more skilful with the greater upside.
4flagsin5yrs
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Have you seen Tom's brothers?
There are a lot of them and they are all big units.
He'll fill out and become a beast.
4flagsin5yrs
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Pitto was matching or beating all comers till injury struck.
He's clearly capable of playing #1 ruck (though agree TDK a better option for the uber athletic rucks).
Needs to refine his around the ground work too eg marking a kick behind the play - that's a coaching thing.
TDK is what? 22 odd?
Use him too much in the ruck now and we'll ruin him.
Tom could well become a great, he has all the attributes, but we must be patient.
Pitto isn't a great forward, so what, does he need to be? It's about giving him a rest and creating a mismatch.
Clearly both Young and Mirkov could be used too.
I think we're well placed.
You have hedged your bets a number of times here. You are saying that TDK should be the number 1, so where do you play Pitto? Pitto is fine playing against non athletic ruckmen, but struggles with jumpers.
Mirkov is miles off, despite having height and would get his hands on the ball first, he would be spanked round the ground and we don't know whether he could be an option forward
Young, club has indicated he is playing back, but I would prefer him as a 2nd KPF/ruckman.
Look at the top sides, an athletic ruckman with a chopout KPF.
Things will look different by adding more mid depth in Cerra and Hewett and with a better gameplan, we should of made finals this year, but Pitto is only a breakglass option now and when we are contending
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4flagsin5yrs
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Where did I hedge? I didn't, I said horses for courses.
For sure, I'd struggle to play Pitto and TDK in the same 22.
Dogs don't go with the athletic ruck/KPF chop out. Tigers have dropped it, how many actually do.
Jackson is as much a ruck, albeit relatively short, as he is a forward. And has the luxury of playing in a strong team.
If Gawn gets injured, how do you think the Dees would look in the ruck? Pretty darn poorly. Jackson is behind TDK in development as a #1 ruck - considerably.
Never said Mirkov was 'ready', but in an absolute hour of need, for sure....
You sure like putting your own taint on others' words....
"He's clearly capable of playing #1 ruck (though agree TDK a better option for the uber athletic rucks)." I am confused, do you want Pitto or TDK as the number 1 ruck? Is this what you mean by me putting words in your mouth
Dogs had English, Sweet, Young, Martin, 2 of which are a threat forward
If Gawn goes down, they have Jackson, Brown, McDonald can all do ruckwork and be a threat forward
I think we are a 2nd forward/ruck short, if, Young is playing back and Harry continues to be used exclusively forward
4flagsin5yrs
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Concession? Please
Forwardline/Ruck setup are interwoven for mine.
Charlie/Harry obviously the 2 key pillars. But if all fit, are we playing both JSOS and McGovern? If so, I think we have to have JSOS as the chop out, to TDK as no.1.
If we are going to only play one of the 2, we can perhaps afford to rest TDK/Pitto forward at times.
Young (if he plays 1s) should just ruck in the backline Geelong-style. Allows us then to have our full time ruckman as the outlet kick.
Charlie/Harry obviously the 2 key pillars. But if all fit, are we playing both JSOS and McGovern? If so, I think we have to have JSOS as the chop out, to TDK as no.1.
If we are going to only play one of the 2, we can perhaps afford to rest TDK/Pitto forward at times.
Young (if he plays 1s) should just ruck in the backline Geelong-style. Allows us then to have our full time ruckman as the outlet kick.
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TDK obviously has plenty of upside, but when he's running around I am reminded of a 3 hour old foal. All elbows and knees.
I feel like he hasn't really grown into his body yet. When he does, look out.
Remember in 2021 he didn't have any pre-season and was basically working his way back from injury for the first half of the year.
The thing that stands out the most is his marking. In 2020 he was the 'almost but not quite' guy who kept presenting and getting to the balls, but would just drop marks or get out bodied. McKay was like early days too.
2021 he more than doubled his average marks per game from 1.43 (in 2020) to 3.08. He's also up to 17 h/o per game which is still slightly below average but not horrible anymore. Disposal numbers also increased a bit, but I'd like to see that get to around 15.
TDK's '21 numbers are a little bit skewed though; he played second fiddle to Pitto in 4 of his 13 games and then had the other where he went off really early, only playing 19% TOG. Deduct those 5 and his average hitouts are up from 16.8 to 22.3. Disposals and marks also both marginally increase from 9.5 & 3.1 to 10.6 & 3.5 respectively.
Next year Tom will a 23 years old and should begin showing his potential regularly , more mature physically too, hopefully he develops a better aerobic capacity to allow him to be more competitive for longer periods of the game.
Reckon he needs at least another 2 years, before he can be considered 1st. Ruckman for a full game.
Reckon he needs at least another 2 years, before he can be considered 1st. Ruckman for a full game.
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