Fixing the defensive woes

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jkitto23

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Sep 26, 2005
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Collingwood
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collingwood
I see the pies defence as a growing concern, and the uncertain futures of Brown, Frost doesn't really help. But you look at the best teams and they have that general down back steadying the ship, Burgoyne - Hawthorn, Boyd - Bulldogs, Enright (Formerly) Cats.

We saw the cracks start to show this season which saw Howe moved to the backline. But I think the foundation of the pies defensive issues was offset by the departures of Heath Shaw and perhaps to an extend Lumumba
(We were best down back with Leon Davis earning that AA honour across the halfback line in our premiership year).

It’s been well documented that Bucks and the Pies have been after that Gunston-type model to improve their forward stocks, which is why they targeted Howe last year and which is evidently why they’ve expressed interest in Chris Mayne. But is Mayne needed if we can swing Howe forward and add some more kicking efficiency down back?

Ideally I think a Sam Docherty would fit perfectly into the pies list going forward, is he gettable? Probably not. So do you think the pies go after a deledio or Hartlett to add a bit of class and foot skills across that half backline? Possibly a Ricky Henderson?
 
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What does everyone think we can get in return from the Lions if we package up Frost and Witts for a trade? It was reported late in the season the Lions were keen on Witts
 
What does everyone think we can get in return from the Lions if we package up Frost and Witts for a trade? It was reported late in the season the Lions were keen on Witts

I think Witts choose the Suns
 
I don't mind the idea of adding Henderson as a FA but really I reckon our inability to play the same set of core defenders with any continuity is a bigger issue than the quality of the actual players back there. Having a settled defensive unit, where each player instinctively knows what their team-mates will do and where they'll be positioned under pressure would make them look so much better. That's one of the keys to success of Hawks, Swans and Cats - having the same back six out there week in, week out.

In Reid, Howe, Brown, Ramsay, Langdon, Sinclair, Williams, Scharenberg, Maynard, Marsh, Goldsack, Oxley and Keeffe we have a good mix of tall, medium and small defensive options, some nullifiers and some rebounders. The problem is that injuries have meant that the we've had to constantly chop and change our defensive set up for the past two years. It has never looked settled and that results in mistakes/turnovers under pressure. Hopefully in 2017 we'll have all up and available for round 1 and then get a decent injury run to allow them to settle into their roles.

I'd like to see:

FB Langdon Brown Ramsay
HB Howe Reid Scharenberg/Maynard
 
Well said mate, continuity is definitely the key. It was evident throughout the season that the kicking efficiency of our back six let us down, and this lead to Pendlebury playing a role down back. There seems to be a lack of leadership in the defensive end since Maxwell, Shaw exited in my opinion.
It will be good to see if they can settle on a defensive set-up for 2017. I like your back six suggestion. Jury's still out on how Scharenberg can pull up after his second knee but fingers crossed! I hope they persist with Josh Smith - a lot of potential there for mine.
 
Well said mate, continuity is definitely the key. It was evident throughout the season that the kicking efficiency of our back six let us down, and this lead to Pendlebury playing a role down back. There seems to be a lack of leadership in the defensive end since Maxwell, Shaw exited in my opinion.
It will be good to see if they can settle on a defensive set-up for 2017. I like your back six suggestion. Jury's still out on how Scharenberg can pull up after his second knee but fingers crossed! I hope they persist with Josh Smith - a lot of potential there for mine.
I forgot about Smith. Adding him to the list makes 14 players from which to pick a core defensive unit. Surely that's plenty, if we get a decent injury run.
 
I don't mind the idea of adding Henderson as a FA but really I reckon our inability to play the same set of core defenders with any continuity is a bigger issue than the quality of the actual players back there. Having a settled defensive unit, where each player instinctively knows what their team-mates will do and where they'll be positioned under pressure would make them look so much better. That's one of the keys to success of Hawks, Swans and Cats - having the same back six out there week in, week out.

In Reid, Howe, Brown, Ramsay, Langdon, Sinclair, Williams, Scharenberg, Maynard, Marsh, Goldsack, Oxley and Keeffe we have a good mix of tall, medium and small defensive options, some nullifiers and some rebounders. The problem is that injuries have meant that the we've had to constantly chop and change our defensive set up for the past two years. It has never looked settled and that results in mistakes/turnovers under pressure. Hopefully in 2017 we'll have all up and available for round 1 and then get a decent injury run to allow them to settle into their roles.

I'd like to see:

FB Langdon Brown Ramsay
HB Howe Reid Scharenberg/Maynard
from All report Will Hoskin-Elliott is a done deal, just negotiating the trade. so you would imagine that he comes in.
 
I'll float my stick with the continuity crowd, too many long term injuries destroys continuity and the backline more than any other line needs continuity. It's no coincidence that every flag winning team has a great defense, it's also true that a defense needs to play as a unit. To play as a unit needs long term stability in the personel.

It's simply not possible under the conditions we have had lately.
 
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Mainly having a steady group of healthy players who can play the position but offer forward thrust as well, break lines, clear clean distribution.
I'd say 6 to 8 standard people that patrol the back area.

B. Scharenberg ~ Brown ~ Langdon
HB. Maynard ~ Reid ~ Howe

supported by Ramsay

Other support here and there is by Adams, Varcoe and the like
 
Either a change the players to suit the structure or b change the structure to suit the players. Its currently a square peg in a round hole.
 
Either a change the players to suit the structure or b change the structure to suit the players. Its currently a square peg in a round hole.
Get our best six defenders to play a dozen games in a row together and our defence would start looking like a well-oiled machine. for the past two/three years we've never been able to get them on the park together for an extended period to build that understanding/chemistry.
 

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Get our best six defenders to play a dozen games in a row together and our defence would start looking like a well-oiled machine. for the past two/three years we've never been able to get them on the park together for an extended period to build that understanding/chemistry.

Get a structure that suits our defenders would also make them look like a well oiled machine. Dogs didn't have their best six defenders this year.
 
Get a structure that suits our defenders would also make them look like a well oiled machine. Dogs didn't have their best six defenders this year.

M.Boyd, D.Morris and E.Wood, all played 20+ games...so pretty solid continiuity from the veterans.

Biggs played everygame down back too.

JJ missed a block in the middle but was fit and firing when it mattered for finals.

F.Roberts, D.Morris, E.Wood
JJ, Hamling, M.Boyd with Biggs in support was their defensive set up for most of the year and was the group that played in PF and GF.

Adams hadnt played a game prior to this season, and Hamling was great anyway...aint really that big a loss. Bit like arguing Frost or N.Brown.

The only major loss was Murphy...and Suckling was solid replacement option for most of the year despite not being best 22.
 
M.Boyd, D.Morris and E.Wood, all played 20+ games...so pretty solid continiuity from the veterans.

Biggs played everygame down back too.

JJ missed a block in the middle but was fit and firing when it mattered for finals.

F.Roberts, D.Morris, E.Wood
JJ, Hamling, M.Boyd with Biggs in support was their defensive set up for most of the year and was the group that played in PF and GF.

Adams hadnt played a game prior to this season, and Hamling was great anyway...aint really that big a loss. Bit like arguing Frost or N.Brown.

The only major loss was Murphy...and Suckling was solid replacement option for most of the year despite not being best 22.

Yet we kept dropping and bringing in guys like Brown, Frost, Oxley chopping and changing the backline on our own accord. The bulldgos knew the best mix and have a structure that suit them.
 
Yet we kept dropping and bringing in guys like Brown, Frost, Oxley chopping and changing the backline on our own accord. The bulldgos knew the best mix and have a structure that suit them.
That is a different tune to your initial point about the Dogs not having their best six defenders.

They had a settled defence, four blokes played 20+ games - Wood, M.Boyd, Morris and Biggs

JJ played 17, Roberts 18 and Hamling played the last 9 games on the trot.

The Dogs had a settled senior defense, the opposite of what we had.

Our mainstay down back was Maynard, a kid learning the game....yet people wonder why our structures didnt hold up all the time!?
 
That is a different tune to your initial point about the Dogs not having their best six defenders.

Doesn't change the fact that they didn't. They had Murphy out who is the equivalent of Reid and Adams who showed in the first half of the year he was their best key defender.
They had a settled defence, four blokes played 20+ games - Wood, M.Boyd, Morris and Biggs
We could have as well but we kept choping and changing our players.

JJ played 17, Roberts 18 and Hamling played the last 9 games on the trot.

The Dogs had a settled senior defense, the opposite of what we had.
We chose not to by dropping Brown and Williams during the year and by wasting Varcoe up forward for most of the year.

Our mainstay down back was Maynard, a kid learning the game....yet people wonder why our structures didnt hold up all the time!?

No one wonders why our structures don't hold up, we know why it because they're shit and aren't suited to our players.
 
A settled back line is crucial however we need to improve our kicking in this area to find ways out and create easy attacks.

I think we have some strong ball users with Reid, Howe and Maynard.
Ramsay coming back will be solid and Sinclair has actually improved his game.
Scharenberg being available would be the icing.

However we do need another one or two options that are quality ball users and decision makers.
Guys like Williams, Frost and Langdon just haven't worked out in this regard and it's been holding us back.
 
Hmm. So Reid and Howe are the only players in our back half who really can zone off or can go third man up to spoil,punch or Mark. The others are really one on one types based on this years form. Despite having a different six every week they didn't have a clue about the zone, where it was, who was in it resulting in players like stronger constantly being 15m in the clear goal side and anybody from port being able to stroll into the goal square at their leisure.

On the other hand, on public record bucks convinced Howe to come to the pies to play offensive winger and forward role. So far he's played one dismal unfit half up front and the rest starting down back. What's to say he doesn't move on in 2 years time again looking for that promised forward role.

Recruiting Mayne would be writing on the wall to Howe surely?
 
I don't mind the idea of adding Henderson as a FA but really I reckon our inability to play the same set of core defenders with any continuity is a bigger issue than the quality of the actual players back there. Having a settled defensive unit, where each player instinctively knows what their team-mates will do and where they'll be positioned under pressure would make them look so much better. That's one of the keys to success of Hawks, Swans and Cats - having the same back six out there week in, week out.

In Reid, Howe, Brown, Ramsay, Langdon, Sinclair, Williams, Scharenberg, Maynard, Marsh, Goldsack, Oxley and Keeffe we have a good mix of tall, medium and small defensive options, some nullifiers and some rebounders. The problem is that injuries have meant that the we've had to constantly chop and change our defensive set up for the past two years. It has never looked settled and that results in mistakes/turnovers under pressure. Hopefully in 2017 we'll have all up and available for round 1 and then get a decent injury run to allow them to settle into their roles.

I'd like to see:

FB Langdon Brown Ramsay
HB Howe Reid Scharenberg/Maynard
Lacks so much pace on the counter attack and if we come up against a good small forward team we are absolutely stuffed. I don't see us going anywhere fast playing a team like that.
 
Hmm. So Reid and Howe are the only players in our back half who really can zone off or can go third man up to spoil,punch or Mark. The others are really one on one types based on this years form. Despite having a different six every week they didn't have a clue about the zone, where it was, who was in it resulting in players like stronger constantly being 15m in the clear goal side and anybody from port being able to stroll into the goal square at their leisure.

On the other hand, on public record bucks convinced Howe to come to the pies to play offensive winger and forward role. So far he's played one dismal unfit half up front and the rest starting down back. What's to say he doesn't move on in 2 years time again looking for that promised forward role.

Recruiting Mayne would be writing on the wall to Howe surely?
Maynard and Ramsay are high quality too. Shaz is too so get him right that will go long long way

Howe
Reid
Maynard
Ramsay
Scharenburg

Get all those fit and together then thats a long way to a rock solid defence.
 
I think we are one tall defender short, if Keeffe can break into the team this may solve for it but I am not holding my breath, he will have a long journey once he commences pre-season. I don't want to say this but we need cover for Reid, he is key but if he goes down we will struggle. Looking forward to seeing Shaz and hope the lower level talent transfers into AFL quality.
 
No one wonders why our structures don't hold up, we know why it because they're shit and aren't suited to our players.
Our problem is that our players, especially our senior players, are poor performers.

N.Brown, Williams, Toovey simply weren't able to produce...unlike guys like Morris and M.Boyd they havent adapted their games and become key senior players to provide experience and stability.

Goldsack can't get on the park.

Potential first choice small running players - Ramsay, Sinclair and Schranberg - are always injured.

I would happily have the following as our best defense

Ramsay, Marsh, Scharenberg
Howe as a floater
Adams, Reid, Sinclair / Maynard

Oh those only Howe, his first year with us, and Maynard, a kid, were available for 20 games in 2016.

We had no continuity at all down back, especially to our 'best' players.

Would kill get to the output the Doggies had in 2016 for our defenders in 2017.
 
Mainly having a steady group of healthy players who can play the position but offer forward thrust as well, break lines, clear clean distribution.
I'd say 6 to 8 standard people that patrol the back area.

B. Scharenberg ~ Brown ~ Langdon
HB. Maynard ~ Reid ~ Howe

supported by Ramsay

Other support here and there is by Adams, Varcoe and the like

I'd prefer Marsh take over one of these spots before 2017 is done.... Either Brown or Langdon to make way.
 

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Fixing the defensive woes

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