Official Club Stuff Football Department Review and Board update

[Blue__Balls]

Being an agent of change doesn’t mean anything if it’s not the right change.

Wow, you don't say....


Targeting the CEO of a club with what is widely regarded as one of the better operating cultures going around, and in the last 15 years has won three premierships and only missed the top eight twice, seems like the right kind of change.

And targeting the senior coach of a club who in the last 15 years have won four premierships (including going back-to-back-to-back), and only missed the finals 5 times, also seems like the right kind of change.

Will we get them? I dunno. You can't kidnap the blokes and force them to do the job. But we're clearly giving it a red hot go, and all the noise around the industry indicates Cook is a very good chance. And per the domino analogy, get Cook and maybe that gives Clarko the assurance he needs that the department around him will be well run and he should jump in while the opportunity exists.

Nail one or two key appointments and suddenly the board aren't needing to make wholesale changes every few years.

 

[BlueGum]

Typical Carlton response. Play the man. He was the last coach to win a final at Carlton. Remember that night?? He can rest on his laurels.

Typical Carlton response? You're not Carlton Moody?

Last final won when we were gifted a spot in the finals by * stupidity. I should laud Mick?

Not going to happen.

 

[bigblueboy]

Wow, you don't say....


Targeting the CEO of a club with what is widely regarded as one of the better operating cultures going around, and in the last 15 years has won three premierships and only missed the top eight twice, seems like the right kind of change.

And targeting the senior coach of a club who in the last 15 years have won four premierships (including going back-to-back-to-back), and only missed the finals 5 times, also seems like the right kind of change.

Will we get them? I dunno. You can't kidnap the blokes and force them to do the job. But we're clearly giving it a red hot go, and all the noise around the industry indicates Cook is a very good chance. And per the domino analogy, get Cook and maybe that gives Clarko the assurance he needs that the department around him will be well run and he should jump in while the opportunity exists.

Nail one or two key appointments and suddenly the board aren't needing to make wholesale changes every few years.

I think this is a really shallow view of what the right change looks like and hardly helped by the juvenile sarcasm.

Transformational change goes wrong when the people change but that structures don't. Anyone can come in and kick the bejeezus out of those perceived to be failures and chase the best talent - that's actually standard across the AFL industry and is hardly unique to Sayers, or Carlton.

Indeed we've spent the two decades chasing the so-called best coaches (remember Pagan and Malthouse) and perceived best CEOs like Swann. We've chased top end talent at the draft and through trades. Yet we have still failed.

I cannot believe the protected species Sayers has become on this forum in the past few weeks. What is it based upon what? A review which hasn't been released? A coaching panel which includes a CEO who everyone apparently knew (except Cain himself) was going to be punted? The fact he's sent the coach packing? Why do these actions fill people with confidence? Because anonymous posters try to ride real ITKs jump on the "we are getting Cook and then Clarkson is a fait accompli" bandwagon?

Don't get me wrong, Cook and Clarkson have amazing history in leading successful clubs and if we get them both I'll also celebrate that outcome. However, it does not guarantee success and neither does Sayers' approach, so questioning it is not only relevant but healthy, despite what some believe.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Sayers may well have voted for previous appointments and sackings...who knows. But I will say there's a big difference between being on a Board to being President and in control of the Board.

I agree, Jeannie

 

[WFGodot]

We've had 20 years of being a laughing stock. And now Sayers is having a good go at fixing sh*t up. If he fails, it'll be another in the litany of failure.

And you're whining that he's not providing you your cookie on the media's preferred timeline (instantly, and while giving Teaguey and Liddle a Dutch rudder on their way out).

He is trying to execute a revolution in personnel and mindset at CFC. This is a sensitive operation, trying to recruit several major industry players with the season still on, with things needing to happen in a particular sequence. And we're in the fog of war, with disinformation coming from club staff, board members, managers and media in service of Sayers' agenda and those of 20 other parties.
[/QUOTE]

I'd love it to be a success. I couldn't care what the media says.

The longer this takes the fewer options we have. Its not as if Sayers woke up a month ago and said, shit, I gotta do stuff.

 

[goreds]

I think this is a really shallow view of what the right change looks like and hardly helped by the juvenile sarcasm.

Transformational change goes wrong when the people change but that structures don't. Anyone can come in and kick the bejeezus out of those perceived to be failures and chase the best talent - that's actually standard across the AFL industry and is hardly unique to Sayers, or Carlton.

Indeed we've spent the two decades chasing the so-called best coaches (remember Pagan and Malthouse) and perceived best CEOs like Swann. We've chased top end talent at the draft and through trades. Yet we have still failed.

I cannot believe the protected species Sayers has become on this forum in the past few weeks. What is it based upon what? A review which hasn't been released? A coaching panel which includes a CEO who everyone apparently knew (except Cain himself) was going to be punted? The fact he's sent the coach packing? Why do these actions fill people with confidence? Because anonymous posters try to ride real ITKs jump on the "we are getting Cook and then Clarkson is a fait accompli" bandwagon?

Don't get me wrong, Cook and Clarkson have amazing history in leading successful clubs and if we get them both I'll also celebrate that outcome. However, it does not guarantee success and neither does Sayers' approach, so questioning it is not only relevant but healthy, despite what some believe.

The biggest difference which should now be taken into consideration when comparing Sayers and the rest is;
1. Books are in order
2. List is very strong

These two things are the biggest difference when discussing the last 2 decades. It’s a plum job for men of Clarko and Cooks caliber and know how.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I think this is a really shallow view of what the right change looks like and hardly helped by the juvenile sarcasm.

Transformational change goes wrong when the people change but that structures don't. Anyone can come in and kick the bejeezus out of those perceived to be failures and chase the best talent - that's actually standard across the AFL industry and is hardly unique to Sayers, or Carlton.

Indeed we've spent the two decades chasing the so-called best coaches (remember Pagan and Malthouse) and perceived best CEOs like Swann. We've chased top end talent at the draft and through trades. Yet we have still failed.

I cannot believe the protected species Sayers has become on this forum in the past few weeks. What is it based upon what? A review which hasn't been released? A coaching panel which includes a CEO who everyone apparently knew (except Cain himself) was going to be punted? The fact he's sent the coach packing? Why do these actions fill people with confidence? Because anonymous posters try to ride real ITKs jump on the "we are getting Cook and then Clarkson is a fait accompli" bandwagon?

Don't get me wrong, Cook and Clarkson have amazing history in leading successful clubs and if we get them both I'll also celebrate that outcome. However, it does not guarantee success and neither does Sayers' approach, so questioning it is not only relevant but healthy, despite what some believe.

I think you're missing the point.

"Transformational change goes wrong when the people change but that structures don't."

Of course it's not just about making a few token personnel changes, and the fact that you're reducing my argument to that is a bit disingenuous. But if you're going to make big structural cultural changes, it stands to reason that putting experienced and successful people in the driving seat is a GOOD thing. This isn't a messiah complex thing, it's not about just going and getting a name and assuming that's all that's required. It's about recognising the dire need for significant change and then putting the right people in place to make the right changes - hence the sarcasm earlier, I was never advocating for change for the sake of change, and the response I got added nothing to the discussion except to suggest I was.

Sayers a protected species? Hardly. There are just some regular chicken littles who won't even wait until the dust has settled on the personnel changes before throwing their toys out the cot that it wasn't done the way they wanted, or done fast enough, or done slow enough, or had the outcomes that they'd expertly determined were necessary from the comfort of their couch.

Seriously, potting Sayers at the moment is the equivalent of calling an 18yo kid a draft bust because Tom Browne tweeted that he missed a set shot in preseason training.

 

[WFGodot]

I think this is a really shallow view of what the right change looks like and hardly helped by the juvenile sarcasm.

Transformational change goes wrong when the people change but that structures don't. Anyone can come in and kick the bejeezus out of those perceived to be failures and chase the best talent - that's actually standard across the AFL industry and is hardly unique to Sayers, or Carlton.

Indeed we've spent the two decades chasing the so-called best coaches (remember Pagan and Malthouse) and perceived best CEOs like Swann. We've chased top end talent at the draft and through trades. Yet we have still failed.

I cannot believe the protected species Sayers has become on this forum in the past few weeks. What is it based upon what? A review which hasn't been released? A coaching panel which includes a CEO who everyone apparently knew (except Cain himself) was going to be punted? The fact he's sent the coach packing? Why do these actions fill people with confidence? Because anonymous posters try to ride real ITKs jump on the "we are getting Cook and then Clarkson is a fait accompli" bandwagon?

Don't get me wrong, Cook and Clarkson have amazing history in leading successful clubs and if we get them both I'll also celebrate that outcome. However, it does not guarantee success and neither does Sayers' approach, so questioning it is not only relevant but healthy, despite what some believe.

Yes, Yes yes. Thank-you! On all levels.

 

[therubbernub]

That's a particularly dismissive interpretation of a what I thought was a reasonable comment, but suit yourself.

Sayers has been on the board since 2012. He would have been in every discussion and vote concerning the future of the club at board level for nearly a decade. He's not blameless in our current situation. He may not have been behind the wheel but he was a passenger. Did he not have a voice on the board, thats a long time to sit quietly on the bus and not ask questions about the direction they were heading if he wasnt happy?

You are aware of how boards work? There can be internal dissention and votes cast etc, but once the decision has been made, its pretty poor form to go around letting others know that you disagreed and try to undermine the position

 

[therubbernub]

Wow, you don't say....


Targeting the CEO of a club with what is widely regarded as one of the better operating cultures going around, and in the last 15 years has won three premierships and only missed the top eight twice, seems like the right kind of change.

And targeting the senior coach of a club who in the last 15 years have won four premierships (including going back-to-back-to-back), and only missed the finals 5 times, also seems like the right kind of change.

Will we get them? I dunno. You can't kidnap the blokes and force them to do the job. But we're clearly giving it a red hot go, and all the noise around the industry indicates Cook is a very good chance. And per the domino analogy, get Cook and maybe that gives Clarko the assurance he needs that the department around him will be well run and he should jump in while the opportunity exists.

Nail one or two key appointments and suddenly the board aren't needing to make wholesale changes every few years.

FWIW I am all for the kidnap option.

 

[bigblueboy]

I think you're missing the point.

"Transformational change goes wrong when the people change but that structures don't."

Of course it's not just about making a few token personnel changes, and the fact that you're reducing my argument to that is a bit disingenuous. But if you're going to make big structural cultural changes, it stands to reason that putting experienced and successful people in the driving seat is a GOOD thing. This isn't a messiah complex thing, it's not about just going and getting a name and assuming that's all that's required. It's about recognising the dire need for significant change and then putting the right people in place to make the right changes - hence the sarcasm earlier, I was never advocating for change for the sake of change, and the response I got added nothing to the discussion except to suggest I was.

Sayers a protected species? Hardly. There are just some regular chicken littles who won't even wait until the dust has settled on the personnel changes before throwing their toys out the cot that it wasn't done the way they wanted, or done fast enough, or done slow enough, or had the outcomes that they'd expertly determined were necessary from the comfort of their couch.

Seriously, potting Sayers at the moment is the equivalent of calling an 18yo kid a draft bust because Tom Browne tweeted that he missed a set shot in preseason training.

I disagree.
If we get Cook or Clarkson they will implement change. Will probably base that change off their experiences and you can argue that should produce improved outcomes.
However, change has been a constant at our club and is normal for an organisation our size and status and, as results on field has shown, it means nothing without alignment and buy in from the whole organisation.
There has been a constant lack of a single vision for the club in the past two decades. Every board member, president, coach, rich donor and key player seems to have their own view on what Carlton Football Club should be and they haven't been willing, or able, to commit as one. Memberships, social responsibility campaigns, the college, business coteries, facility redevelopments - it's enormous, positive growth. Yet on field we've been a massive failure.
I don't think the "review" looked at this aspect, but in my view its a major problem and can't be fixed alone by a Cook or a Clarkson. Just as it wasn't fixed by the plethora of very experienced footy people and administrators that have moved through the revolving doors in the past two decades.
It's my view that supporters have every right to question Sayers. Despite the pleas from some here not to listen to the "media", it's hard to avoid the fact that many commentators (not just journalists but former players, coaches and officials who know what good looks like) have a view that our review process and decision making since Sayers moved into the role has been flawed.
Doesn't make them right but doesn't make them wrong either. Same goes for supporters IMO.

 

[WFGodot]

You are aware of how boards work? There can be internal dissention and votes cast etc, but once the decision has been made, its pretty poor form to go around letting others know that you disagreed and try to undermine the position

Sorry? Someone acts like a smart arse and you can’t call them out?
Really? So it’s ok to condone sarcasm and condescension. Is that how it works? I should hope not.

 

[therubbernub]

Sorry? Someone acts like a smart arse and you can’t call them out?
Really? So it’s ok to condone sarcasm and condescension. Is that how it works? I should hope not.

I was referring to your comment about sayers. Do you think that he should have gone around telling everyone that he disagreed?

 

[BlueTongue]

I think this is a really shallow view of what the right change looks like and hardly helped by the juvenile sarcasm.

Transformational change goes wrong when the people change but that structures don't. Anyone can come in and kick the bejeezus out of those perceived to be failures and chase the best talent - that's actually standard across the AFL industry and is hardly unique to Sayers, or Carlton.

Indeed we've spent the two decades chasing the so-called best coaches (remember Pagan and Malthouse) and perceived best CEOs like Swann. We've chased top end talent at the draft and through trades. Yet we have still failed.

I cannot believe the protected species Sayers has become on this forum in the past few weeks. What is it based upon what? A review which hasn't been released? A coaching panel which includes a CEO who everyone apparently knew (except Cain himself) was going to be punted? The fact he's sent the coach packing? Why do these actions fill people with confidence? Because anonymous posters try to ride real ITKs jump on the "we are getting Cook and then Clarkson is a fait accompli" bandwagon?

Don't get me wrong, Cook and Clarkson have amazing history in leading successful clubs and if we get them both I'll also celebrate that outcome. However, it does not guarantee success and neither does Sayers' approach, so questioning it is not only relevant but healthy, despite what some believe.

I get where you are coming from and I don’t disagree, but what I am choosing to believe is that Sayers knows exactly the position you are talking about and has taken it upon himself to bring about wholesale changes the might have otherwise been hindered by internal challenges and calculated manipulation.

I think he knows that leaks and continual public scrutiny will jeopardise what he is trying to achieve, which is dramatic and sudden change of a failed structure that has been in place (and defended rigorously by power brokers with self serving interests) for far too long.

To create great change, first you have to destroy the existing system, and all its foundations.

I could be totally wrong but it looks from the outside like he is putting the right people in place to create a new system.

 

[Gointocarlton]

I get where you are coming from and I don’t disagree, but what I am choosing to believe is that Sayers knows exactly the position you are talking about and has taken it upon himself to bring about wholesale changes the might have otherwise been hindered by internal challenges and calculated manipulation.

I think he knows that leaks and continual public scrutiny will jeopardise what he is trying to achieve, which is dramatic and sudden change of a failed structure that has been in place (and defended rigorously by power brokers with self serving interests) for far too long.

To create great change, first you have to destroy the existing system, and all its foundations.

I could be totally wrong but it looks from the outside like he is putting the right people in place to create a new system.

For me one of the most important things with how they are going about is the timing, they are doing it their way and properly (at least it seems) not pandering to the media and supporters (sorry to all on here). All the rubbish being stated in the media is just that, rubbish. Other than Diesels video, very little has come out of th club, no running commentary, I like it a lot. When the appointments are announced, I look forward to the squirming from the likes of Caro and Hutchison.

 

[gbatman]

Really hope we get Cook, we need things to be looking good for us and we need people to want to work for us. They way the media are going on about it you would think no one wants to be at Carlton and with our history that lines up but surely things aren't that bad. We haven't been a professional environment that offers great job security, success and the best resources to work with.

Feels like Sayers is trying to do the right thing. Perhaps getting that done is harder than he thought or perhaps it's already done and we are in no rush.

It could take some time before outsiders trust us and have confidence in us again so I am sure there will be challenges.

Not much seems to be coming out of Carlton and the ITK posters and media are very much on two different pages so what eventuates will be interesting.

If the club were to get Cook that would be huge, if they were to land Clarkson that would be enormous. It would start the ball rolling with the resurgence we are all looking for. Not expecting us to be world beaters immediately but it would put us on the right track.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Really hope we get Cook, we need things to be looking good for us and we need people to want to work for us. They way the media are going on about it you would think no one wants to be at Carlton and with our history that lines up but surely things aren't that bad. We haven't been a professional environment that offers great job security, success and the best resources to work with.

Feels like Sayers is trying to do the right thing. Perhaps getting that done is harder than he thought or perhaps it's already done and we are in no rush.

It could take some time before outsiders trust us and have confidence in us again so I am sure there will be challenges.

Not much seems to be coming out of Carlton and the ITK posters and media are very much on two different pages so what eventuates will be interesting.

If the club were to get Cook that would be huge, if they were to land Clarkson that would be enormous. It would start the ball rolling with the resurgence we are all looking for. Not expecting us to be world beaters immediately but it would put us on the right track.

This morning Gary Lyon got a message that cook not keen on the job and Watson said he heard the same thing yesterday -- so who knows

 

[bigblueboy]

Club-wide review eh? How does this get past editors? It was a footy department 'wide' review. Simple fact wrong, hyperbolic nonsense. The media's job isn't to show their stupidity but it's whst they do.

Yet Sayers used the footy department review to sack the CEO. Hmm.

 

[Coops93]

I was dealt a crushing blow by a girl I had no interest in hooking up with another guy.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Yet Sayers used the footy department review to sack the CEO. Hmm.

Get over it. Footy department was found to be rubbish, sack the guy responsible. Its called accountability.

 

[lily of laguna]

Never had discussions with him, but apparently we've been "dealt another blow". Rightyo then.

Also, Caro was confident he was next in line for the job after the 'dreadful disaster' of Ross refusing to go through any type of interview scrutiny.

Meedya have no ****ing clue! Muck raking gutter press.

 

[bigblueboy]

Get over it. Footy department was found to be rubbish, sack the guy responsible. Its called accountability.

It's called convenience.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

It's called convenience.

Delusional. Keep the tin hat on.

 

[bigblueboy]

Delusional. Keep the tin hat on.

No tin hat or delusion here.
The club said the "review" was into the footy department and it made no recommendation to sack Liddle. Indeed, Liddle had to go to Sayers to find out why he was talking to Cook.
Despite this, Sayers justifies Liddle's sacking by stating in an email to members that the entire club is under review. That's where the media gets it from - Sayers' own communications. I'd like to ask who is doing that review? Him? He's changed the goal posts to meet his narrative.
Just for the record, I'm pleased Liddle is gone but nothing about this deserves to go unquestioned.

 

[Arr0w]

No tin hat or delusion here.
The club said the "review" was into the footy department and it made no recommendation to sack Liddle. Indeed, Liddle had to go to Sayers to find out why he was talking to Cook.
Despite this, Sayers justifies Liddle's sacking by stating in an email to members that the entire club is under review. That's where the media gets it from - Sayers' own communications. I'd like to ask who is doing that review? Him? He's changed the goal posts to meet his narrative.
Just for the record, I'm pleased Liddle is gone but nothing about this deserves to go unquestioned.

Liddle being being the CEO, is within the Football Department. I don't think his role is outside the confines of the department.

Do I suspect there may have been predetermined outcomes? Absolutely