Football Related Random Thread - PART 2

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Dalions said:
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Grand moves: AFL ponders concessions for non-Victorian clubs on footy’s biggest day​

ByCaroline Wilson​

June 29, 2024 — 5.30am
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The Brisbane Lions’ 2023 grand final week experience, which left the club’s football staff exhausted, the families of some coaches and staff unable to afford the cost of attending the game, coach Chris Fagan “poked and prodded”, and Brownlow medallist Lachie Neale the target of constant abuse during the grand final eve parade, has provoked the AFL to make a series of practical and policy changes in the lead-up to the 2024 premiership play-off.
With Sydney favourites to reach their fifth grand final under coach John Longmire, the AFL Commission is expected to cover the costs for non-Victorian grand final teams to spend the week in Melbourne leading up to the last Saturday in September if they choose and make way for additional soft-cap funding to allow the families of players, coaches and football staff to travel to Victoria for the game.
Dejected Brisbane Lions players after last year’s grand final loss.

Dejected Brisbane Lions players after last year’s grand final loss.CREDIT:pAUL ROVERE
The AFL will also look to extend the training availability of the MCG during grand final week. The changes are among those expected to come following a lengthy document presented to the AFL by Fagan, seen by this masthead, and the other seven non-Victorian coaches. However, Fagan’s push, strongly supported by a number of non-Victorian coaches, for a pre-grand final week bye, looks unlikely.
Fagan consulted commissioner and former Brisbane and Sydney chief Andrew Ireland and wrote to the AFL after the 2023 season noting the vast differences he experienced as Brisbane Lions coach compared with his former role as a senior football executive at the Hawks during their grand final week campaigns.

He was encouraged by Andrew Dillon to put his observations in writing after a conversation with the new AFL boss shortly after the grand final. Longmire (Sydney) and Adam Kingsley (Greater Western Sydney) also contributed to the AFL document entitled: “The case for fairer treatment of interstate clubs.”
Stressing that the Lions in 2023 lost to a better team on the day in Collingwood, Fagan said Brisbane’s problems during grand final week were not the reason the club was defeated. However, he pointed out the historic challenges faced by non-Victorian clubs to win premierships on the MCG against Victorian teams and the vast logistical demands of grand final week faced by interstate teams.
‘You’re treated like it’s the America’s Cup and you’re the challenger.’
A president of a non-Victorian club
Click to expand...
Pointing out that the grand final agreement with the MCG was unlikely to change, Fagan said the AFL should move to mitigate that ongoing home-ground advantage. He has pushed for:
*More MCG home-and-away fixtures for non-Victorian clubs.

*Non-Victorian clubs allowed to train on the MCG three times in grand final week.
Loading
*Non-Victorian teams funded to spend the full week in Melbourne should they wish in the lead-up to the grand final.
*An extra week off in the lead-up to the grand final to mitigate the extra logistical demands faced by competing clubs from outside Victoria as well increasing player availability.
*The AFL to cover all travel and accommodation costs for the partners and children of players and staff, a cost not incurred by Victorian clubs.

Fagan said that one of his assistant coaches could not afford the cost of flying his family to and accommodating his family in Melbourne for the grand final, with costs estimated at between $6000 to $7000. His comments were strongly supported by other non-Victorian clubs given the AFL does not cover such costs against a backdrop of airline and hotel rate hikes during grand final week.
“My experience at the Hawks tells me that the biggest issues for Melbourne-based clubs are ticketing, who gets into the rooms after the game, and how we get to the after-match celebrations,” wrote Fagan. “The Lions footy ops staff were exhausted by the time we got to Melbourne, which is a real pity and unnecessary.”
Lachie Neale and Chris Fagan at last year’s grand final parade.

Lachie Neale and Chris Fagan at last year’s grand final parade.CREDIT:EDDIE JIM
The commission changes should prove timely given the strong likelihood that Sydney will qualify for the 2024 grand final. On current ladder positions, the Swans would take on one of three big Melbourne-based clubs in Carlton, Essendon or Collingwood.
Longmire has coached the Swans in four grand finals – all against Victorian teams – for one win. That 2012 victory over Hawthorn was one of only two occasions from the past 10 grand finals between a non-Victorian and Victorian team in which the visiting team has won.

The non-Victorian coaches’ document pushed for fixture changes, funding for more practice games against clubs from other states, a national reserves competition, extra soft-cap funding for non-Victorian coaches in Sydney, family salary-cap exclusions, and all-state representation on the All-Australian selection panel, which currently has no Queensland representative. They did note the new AFL regime under Dillon had reversed the trend of Zoom meetings with clubs outside Victoria and were spending more time travelling for club visits.
Loading
Fagan’s observations have received strong support from every non-Victorian club that has contested a grand final over the past decade. One club president from outside Victoria observed: “You’re treated like it’s the America’s Cup and you’re the challenger.”
Brisbane’s attempt at a fourth consecutive premiership in 2004 was disadvantaged by the then-AFL agreement with the MCG, which guaranteed the stadium one preliminary final. Not only were the higher-placed Lions forced to host Geelong in Melbourne, but another deal struck between then-league boss Andrew Demetriou and host broadcaster Channel Ten dictated that the game was scheduled on Saturday night.
As a result Brisbane could not return home until Sunday, handing eventual premiers Port Adelaide a significantly longer break.

That MCG deal was changed in 2005, but even recent history is punctuated with examples of the competition’s cavalier treatment of non-Victorian clubs in finals. Notably in 2013 when – in a radical break from tradition – Fremantle was sent to Kardinia Park to play Geelong in a qualifying final.
The reality of Melbourne’s place at the heart of the AFL industry and the fact the grand final is contractually tied to the MCG until 2059 underline the practical disadvantages to clubs based outside Victoria.
But the fact that Sydney played their last home-and-away game for the season at the MCG in round seven and Collingwood play seven of their last eight at the grand final venue underlines the home-ground advantage. While second-placed Carlton play fewer games at the MCG (nine in season ’24) the Blues travel from Melbourne just twice in their last 11 home-and-away games.

The following instances might seem petty, but they are also symbolic. In 2015 West Coast entered the finals as ladder leaders but were placed below Hawthorn on the MCG scoreboard on grand final day with the Hawks also handed first choice of venue for their post-match function.

In 2016 at the grand final parade both handles of the premiership cup were tied with the Bulldogs’ coloured ribbons of red, white and blue. Cup ambassador Michael O’Loughlin asked for one handle to be changed to adorn Sydney’s red and white but was refused.
Chris Fagan congratulates Magpies counterpart Craig McRae after last year’s decider.

Chris Fagan congratulates Magpies counterpart Craig McRae after last year’s decider.CREDIT:AFL PHOTOS
The Fagan document stressed support for the grand finalparade but suggested some time and space restrictions after supporters were able to touch players and coaches last year. Fagan described the abuse directed at Neale, who won the 2023 Brownlow, which Collingwood fans thought Nick Daicos should have won, as “relentless” and “deeply personal and, to be honest, unacceptable”.
Fagan and Andrew Dillon were contacted for comment.

PAST 10 VICTORIAN v NON-VICTORIAN GRAND FINALS​

2023: Collingwood 12.18 (90) d Brisbane Lions 13.8 (86)
2022: Geelong 20.13 (133) d Sydney 8.4 (52)
2019: Richmond 17.12 (114) d GWS 3.7 (25)
2018: Collingwood 11.8 (74) lost to West Coast 11.13 (79)
2017: Richmond 16.12 (108) d Adelaide 8.12 (60)
2016: W Bulldogs 13.11 (89) d Sydney 10.7 (67)
2015: Hawthorn 16.11 (107) d West Coast 8.13 (61)
2014: Hawthorn 21.11 (137) d Sydney 11.8 (74)
2013: Hawthorn 11.11 (77) d Fremantle 8.14 (62)
2012: Hawthorn 11.15 (81) lost to Sydney 14.7 (91)
 
What an exceptional man we have, in out Fages.
 
irel said:

Grand moves: AFL ponders concessions for non-Victorian clubs on footy’s biggest day​

ByCaroline Wilson​

June 29, 2024 — 5.30am
Save

​


Normal text sizeLarger text sizeVery large text size

The Brisbane Lions’ 2023 grand final week experience, which left the club’s football staff exhausted, the families of some coaches and staff unable to afford the cost of attending the game, coach Chris Fagan “poked and prodded”, and Brownlow medallist Lachie Neale the target of constant abuse during the grand final eve parade, has provoked the AFL to make a series of practical and policy changes in the lead-up to the 2024 premiership play-off.
With Sydney favourites to reach their fifth grand final under coach John Longmire, the AFL Commission is expected to cover the costs for non-Victorian grand final teams to spend the week in Melbourne leading up to the last Saturday in September if they choose and make way for additional soft-cap funding to allow the families of players, coaches and football staff to travel to Victoria for the game.
Dejected Brisbane Lions players after last year’s grand final loss.

Dejected Brisbane Lions players after last year’s grand final loss.CREDIT:pAUL ROVERE
The AFL will also look to extend the training availability of the MCG during grand final week. The changes are among those expected to come following a lengthy document presented to the AFL by Fagan, seen by this masthead, and the other seven non-Victorian coaches. However, Fagan’s push, strongly supported by a number of non-Victorian coaches, for a pre-grand final week bye, looks unlikely.
Fagan consulted commissioner and former Brisbane and Sydney chief Andrew Ireland and wrote to the AFL after the 2023 season noting the vast differences he experienced as Brisbane Lions coach compared with his former role as a senior football executive at the Hawks during their grand final week campaigns.

He was encouraged by Andrew Dillon to put his observations in writing after a conversation with the new AFL boss shortly after the grand final. Longmire (Sydney) and Adam Kingsley (Greater Western Sydney) also contributed to the AFL document entitled: “The case for fairer treatment of interstate clubs.”
Stressing that the Lions in 2023 lost to a better team on the day in Collingwood, Fagan said Brisbane’s problems during grand final week were not the reason the club was defeated. However, he pointed out the historic challenges faced by non-Victorian clubs to win premierships on the MCG against Victorian teams and the vast logistical demands of grand final week faced by interstate teams.

Pointing out that the grand final agreement with the MCG was unlikely to change, Fagan said the AFL should move to mitigate that ongoing home-ground advantage. He has pushed for:
*More MCG home-and-away fixtures for non-Victorian clubs.

*Non-Victorian clubs allowed to train on the MCG three times in grand final week.
Loading
*Non-Victorian teams funded to spend the full week in Melbourne should they wish in the lead-up to the grand final.
*An extra week off in the lead-up to the grand final to mitigate the extra logistical demands faced by competing clubs from outside Victoria as well increasing player availability.
*The AFL to cover all travel and accommodation costs for the partners and children of players and staff, a cost not incurred by Victorian clubs.

Fagan said that one of his assistant coaches could not afford the cost of flying his family to and accommodating his family in Melbourne for the grand final, with costs estimated at between $6000 to $7000. His comments were strongly supported by other non-Victorian clubs given the AFL does not cover such costs against a backdrop of airline and hotel rate hikes during grand final week.
“My experience at the Hawks tells me that the biggest issues for Melbourne-based clubs are ticketing, who gets into the rooms after the game, and how we get to the after-match celebrations,” wrote Fagan. “The Lions footy ops staff were exhausted by the time we got to Melbourne, which is a real pity and unnecessary.”
Lachie Neale and Chris Fagan at last year’s grand final parade.

Lachie Neale and Chris Fagan at last year’s grand final parade.CREDIT:EDDIE JIM
The commission changes should prove timely given the strong likelihood that Sydney will qualify for the 2024 grand final. On current ladder positions, the Swans would take on one of three big Melbourne-based clubs in Carlton, Essendon or Collingwood.
Longmire has coached the Swans in four grand finals – all against Victorian teams – for one win. That 2012 victory over Hawthorn was one of only two occasions from the past 10 grand finals between a non-Victorian and Victorian team in which the visiting team has won.

The non-Victorian coaches’ document pushed for fixture changes, funding for more practice games against clubs from other states, a national reserves competition, extra soft-cap funding for non-Victorian coaches in Sydney, family salary-cap exclusions, and all-state representation on the All-Australian selection panel, which currently has no Queensland representative. They did note the new AFL regime under Dillon had reversed the trend of Zoom meetings with clubs outside Victoria and were spending more time travelling for club visits.
Loading
Fagan’s observations have received strong support from every non-Victorian club that has contested a grand final over the past decade. One club president from outside Victoria observed: “You’re treated like it’s the America’s Cup and you’re the challenger.”
Brisbane’s attempt at a fourth consecutive premiership in 2004 was disadvantaged by the then-AFL agreement with the MCG, which guaranteed the stadium one preliminary final. Not only were the higher-placed Lions forced to host Geelong in Melbourne, but another deal struck between then-league boss Andrew Demetriou and host broadcaster Channel Ten dictated that the game was scheduled on Saturday night.
As a result Brisbane could not return home until Sunday, handing eventual premiers Port Adelaide a significantly longer break.

That MCG deal was changed in 2005, but even recent history is punctuated with examples of the competition’s cavalier treatment of non-Victorian clubs in finals. Notably in 2013 when – in a radical break from tradition – Fremantle was sent to Kardinia Park to play Geelong in a qualifying final.
The reality of Melbourne’s place at the heart of the AFL industry and the fact the grand final is contractually tied to the MCG until 2059 underline the practical disadvantages to clubs based outside Victoria.
But the fact that Sydney played their last home-and-away game for the season at the MCG in round seven and Collingwood play seven of their last eight at the grand final venue underlines the home-ground advantage. While second-placed Carlton play fewer games at the MCG (nine in season ’24) the Blues travel from Melbourne just twice in their last 11 home-and-away games.

The following instances might seem petty, but they are also symbolic. In 2015 West Coast entered the finals as ladder leaders but were placed below Hawthorn on the MCG scoreboard on grand final day with the Hawks also handed first choice of venue for their post-match function.

In 2016 at the grand final parade both handles of the premiership cup were tied with the Bulldogs’ coloured ribbons of red, white and blue. Cup ambassador Michael O’Loughlin asked for one handle to be changed to adorn Sydney’s red and white but was refused.
Chris Fagan congratulates Magpies counterpart Craig McRae after last year’s decider.

Chris Fagan congratulates Magpies counterpart Craig McRae after last year’s decider.CREDIT:AFL PHOTOS
The Fagan document stressed support for the grand finalparade but suggested some time and space restrictions after supporters were able to touch players and coaches last year. Fagan described the abuse directed at Neale, who won the 2023 Brownlow, which Collingwood fans thought Nick Daicos should have won, as “relentless” and “deeply personal and, to be honest, unacceptable”.
Fagan and Andrew Dillon were contacted for comment.

PAST 10 VICTORIAN v NON-VICTORIAN GRAND FINALS​

2023: Collingwood 12.18 (90) d Brisbane Lions 13.8 (86)
2022: Geelong 20.13 (133) d Sydney 8.4 (52)
2019: Richmond 17.12 (114) d GWS 3.7 (25)
2018: Collingwood 11.8 (74) lost to West Coast 11.13 (79)
2017: Richmond 16.12 (108) d Adelaide 8.12 (60)
2016: W Bulldogs 13.11 (89) d Sydney 10.7 (67)
2015: Hawthorn 16.11 (107) d West Coast 8.13 (61)
2014: Hawthorn 21.11 (137) d Sydney 11.8 (74)
2013: Hawthorn 11.11 (77) d Fremantle 8.14 (62)
2012: Hawthorn 11.15 (81) lost to Sydney 14.7 (91)
Click to expand...
Well done Fages!
 
Liked this...
www.titusoreily.com

The Magical Fairyland of AFL Umpiring

“I am not crazy; my reality is just different from yours,” said the Cheshire Cat to Alice as she wandered through Wonderland.The quote came to min
www.titusoreily.com
 
MSB ROYS said:
Liked this...
www.titusoreily.com

The Magical Fairyland of AFL Umpiring

“I am not crazy; my reality is just different from yours,” said the Cheshire Cat to Alice as she wandered through Wonderland.The quote came to min
www.titusoreily.com
Click to expand...
Yes, this cuts right to the heart of the matter: subjectivity. Remove this and the game will become easier to umpire AND easier for us all to understand.

1. Prior opportunity --> 🗑️
2. Last touch out of bounds --> ✅
3. Must be on your feet to play at the ball --> ✅
 
Elixuh said:
I actually like BT. I mean there isn't an abundance of good commentators floating around. I'm not sure who he would be replaced by.
Click to expand...
BT is an idiot and the fact he’s regarded as one of the best proves how poor the standard of AFL commentating is across all platforms. IMO the best at it just call the game and don’t barrack or push for one side more than other and certainly aren’t bias or pander to certain clubs that most of the commentators. It’s not there place to do that yet it’s clearly acceptable industry practice in the AFL. And roaming Brian Is juat embarrassing not to mention cringeworthy.
 
Grasshopper17 said:
Yes, this cuts right to the heart of the matter: subjectivity. Remove this and the game will become easier to umpire AND easier for us all to understand.

1. Prior opportunity --> 🗑️
2. Last touch out of bounds --> ✅
3. Must be on your feet to play at the ball --> ✅
Click to expand...
Why the third one?

I agree with the first two, though we should note the disappearance of boundary throw-ins and severe reduction in ball-ups will greatly devalue tall players and permanently change list structures. I wonder if it's a good idea to make both changes in the same offseason for that reason.
 

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McIvor said:
BT is an idiot and the fact he’s regarded as one of the best proves how poor the standard of AFL commentating is across all platforms. IMO the best at it just call the game and don’t barrack or push for one side more than other and certainly aren’t bias or pander to certain clubs that most of the commentators. It’s not there place to do that yet it’s clearly acceptable industry practice in the AFL. And roaming Brian Is juat embarrassing not to mention cringeworthy.
Click to expand...

Commentary for me is less about what the play by play commentator says - in the sense that I don't get annoyed when he makes a mistake on a players name or w/e - and more about their tone and how they build excitement etc through their voice. I think BT largely does a better job than most at that. On the opposite of BT is someone like Luke Darcy who doesn't have that ability, he just constantly yells into the mic.
 
Elixuh said:
Commentary for me is less about what the play by play commentator says - in the sense that I don't get annoyed when he makes a mistake on a players name or w/e - and more about their tone and how they build excitement etc through their voice. I think BT largely does a better job than most at that. On the opposite of BT is someone like Luke Darcy who doesn't have that ability, he just constantly yells into the mic.
Click to expand...
Fair and on commentators knowing players names, surely that’s just a given - therefore Kelly Underwood and Dermott Brereton fail miserably every game.
 
Johnny Bananas said:
Why the third one?

I agree with the first two, though we should note the disappearance of boundary throw-ins and severe reduction in ball-ups will greatly devalue tall players and permanently change list structures. I wonder if it's a good idea to make both changes in the same offseason for that reason.
Click to expand...
The third one is about tidying up the current mess which exists inside the intersection between holding the ball, high contact and contact below the knees. When a player dives for the ball it becomes a complete lottery. Heck, Hipwood even got done for a push in the back in such a situation on Friday night. So you can add in a fourth confusing aspect to the current rules.

Using contact below the knees as an example, we currently penalise the consequence (ie said player diving into an opponent's legs) when we really should be penalising the action. We want players to be keeping their feet, both because that is what you are coached to do, and also simply because it's safer.

It will also help reduce some of the uglier parts of the game. Nobody goes to the footy to watch 4 or 5 players scrambling around on the ground after a loose ball. We'll still have plenty of tough, hard, rugged footy without that.
 
Elixuh said:
Commentary for me is less about what the play by play commentator says - in the sense that I don't get annoyed when he makes a mistake on a players name or w/e - and more about their tone and how they build excitement etc through their voice. I think BT largely does a better job than most at that. On the opposite of BT is someone like Luke Darcy who doesn't have that ability, he just constantly yells into the mic.
Click to expand...
This is why Tim Lane has always been my favourite. His ability to grasp the importance of the situation immediately in the moment, in the broader context of the game, and make this clear to the listener, purely via his tone of voice, has always been second to none, for mine.

Plus you would never have known from listening to his commentary that he was a Carlton supporter. Always exceptionally unbiased with his call.

And a fellow Tasmanian 💪
 
Grasshopper17 said:
The third one is about tidying up the current mess which exists inside the intersection between holding the ball, high contact and contact below the knees. When a player dives for the ball it becomes a complete lottery. Heck, Hipwood even got done for a push in the back in such a situation on Friday night. So you can add in a fourth confusing aspect to the current rules.

Using contact below the knees as an example, we currently penalise the consequence (ie said player diving into an opponent's legs) when we really should be penalising the action. We want players to be keeping their feet, both because that is what you are coached to do, and also simply because it's safer.

It will also help reduce some of the uglier parts of the game. Nobody goes to the footy to watch 4 or 5 players scrambling around on the ground after a loose ball. We'll still have plenty of tough, hard, rugged footy without that.
Click to expand...
Some good points. I assume there will be an exception for players in midair of course. What if a player has possession and then trips, can they still get a disposal away? If they're on their knees, is that good enough?
 
Johnny Bananas said:
Some good points. I assume there will be an exception for players in midair of course. What if a player has possession and then trips, can they still get a disposal away? If they're on their knees, is that good enough?
Click to expand...
Yeah there will be plenty of buts, like players diving for marks and things like that. I imagine we would say that a player in possession who goes to ground whilst still in possession must dispose immediately. "Define immediately". I know, I know, there will still be small grey areas. But if nothing else the game will be a better spectacle.
 
Grasshopper17 said:
The third one is about tidying up the current mess which exists inside the intersection between holding the ball, high contact and contact below the knees. When a player dives for the ball it becomes a complete lottery. Heck, Hipwood even got done for a push in the back in such a situation on Friday night. So you can add in a fourth confusing aspect to the current rules.

Using contact below the knees as an example, we currently penalise the consequence (ie said player diving into an opponent's legs) when we really should be penalising the action. We want players to be keeping their feet, both because that is what you are coached to do, and also simply because it's safer.

It will also help reduce some of the uglier parts of the game. Nobody goes to the footy to watch 4 or 5 players scrambling around on the ground after a loose ball. We'll still have plenty of tough, hard, rugged footy without that.
Click to expand...
You can add kicking in danger to that mess as well. Its very rarely paid but how they pick between high contact, kicking in danger and contact below the knees is almost a lottery
 
Grasshopper17 said:
This is why Tim Lane has always been my favourite. His ability to grasp the importance of the situation immediately in the moment, in the broader context of the game, and make this clear to the listener, purely via his tone of voice, has always been second to none, for mine.

Plus you would never have known from listening to his commentary that he was a Carlton supporter. Always exceptionally unbiased with his call.

And a fellow Tasmanian 💪
Click to expand...
Won't be long before Matt Hill is the key commentator on the networks.

Another McAvaney
 
Grasshopper17 said:
Struggles to describe the game accurately and succinctly whilst in congestion/chaos, and struggles to nail the big moments.
Click to expand...
It's interesting what people look for in a caller.

I don't need someone to hype the game really - for me they're like umpires, better if you don't notice them. Or to amuse me. Just call the game with the ego dialled down and it's fine by me. That's why I like Hill when I've heard him. The buffoonery of BT et al do nothing for me. I loved Roy & HG doing Origin or Festival of the Boot back in the day, but I didn't care enough State of Origin for it to be annoying.

But I definitely have a preference for professional callers and not ex-players: Hudson, Papalia, Hill, Nicholson, Speed, Bennett (although he's gone down hill a little). Kate McCarthy, although an ex-player, is great to listen to.

Lastly, if you make a mistake in calling a players name or get something else wrong, have the good grace to correct yourself rather than pretending like it never happened.
 
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