Coaching Staff Former Coach Ben "Truck" Rutten - Sacked for real this time - 21/8

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To my surprise I'm hearing Clarkson is a big chance!?
Really!?
That would shake things up and attract talent that he would want.
Anyone else? We should be in the 5 year window.
We need something drastic. This might be it?
 

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JayJ20 said:
Am I the only one that wants nothing to do with Clarko? It's giving me Mick Malthouse at Carlton and Bomber Thompson and Woosha at Essendon vibes.
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Not the only one, no. In fact it's a pretty common take here.

Personally I'd love Clarko. I think we need some of his calibre over a greenhorn in Rutten. Clarko is in another league compared to those guys.
 
Personally if Clarkson was available I'd be keen to get him. No idea how realistic that may or may not be.

I've been really disappointed at how our ability to execute a consistent game plan has actually got worse than last year. Its not all about wins and losses but even visually the way we play doesn't resemble anything approaching a top tier footy or one on the path to get there.
I look at a team like Adelaide who are no better than us really and are the only team putting out younger sides than we are and honestly its easier to see a path forward for them than us.
 
Schnitzengruben said:
Not the only one, no. In fact it's a pretty common take here.

Personally I'd love Clarko. I think we need some of his calibre over a greenhorn in Rutten. Clarko is in another league compared to those guys.
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Clarko had a strong list compared to some of the Collingwood sides Malthouse coached to a grand final so I wouldn't say he is in another league. Bomber Thompson was also a strong coach.

How did he do after 2018 with an average list? Not great. People are still hanging on to what he did 6 years ago. The game has drastically changed since.

Suppose we were to get Clarko, how long will it take for fans to turn on him? They'll call him washed up and cooked within 2 seasons if we're still average. Some had already turned on Rutten 5 games into the season after an unexpected finals appearance in his first year.

This club is going nowhere if they fire Rutten within the first 5 years.
 
Wow.
Clarkson is not a panacea. He achieved premierships in a completely different context than what he would walk into at Tullamarine; different staff, different roles and responsibilities and a different list. There are no guarantees of success simply from bringing him in.

We're not Carlton - we have zero depth in our list to support any serious run to a finals campaign and simply bringing in Clarko won't change that.

Dumping Rutten so early without giving him the chance to rebuild and develop and manifest his system would simply continue the destabilisation and waste careers. As well, Brasher has already said outright that Rutten has the support of the board. Until that changes this isn't even a discussion.

People need to calm down.
 
I'm not saying Clarkson is the answer or that Ruttens needs to go- but if you look someone like Matthew's you can have a pretty big gap between flags at different clubs if you are good enough.
 
JayJ20 said:
Clarko had a strong list compared to some of the Collingwood sides Malthouse coached to a grand final so I wouldn't say he is in another league. Bomber Thompson was also a strong coach.
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They did not start with a strong list. They built a strong list which had a lot to do with Clarko and his coaching influence. Ultimately he was responsible for the team performing the way he did.

How did he do after 2018 with an average list? Not great. People are still hanging on to what he did 6 years ago. The game has drastically changed since.
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Are we going to pretend like 2015 was 30 years ago? Footy hasn't changed that much since then. Bevo won the flag in 2016 yet nobody here would dispute him having what it takes to achieve glory again in 2022. Bulldogs even made it to a GF again in 2021. Was 5 years ago the cutoff for modern relevance?

After 2018 is a different story. I don't have all the details on a timeline but clearly there were issues with Clarko and the Board who both had different ideas where the club was it and where they wanted to go. Probably a bit of fatigue too. 2005 to 2021 - regardless of how good of a coach you are, 16 years is a long time in Footy. Probably every club needs a fresh perspective after that. Some coaches last a decade and have nothing to show for it.

Suppose we were to get Clarko, how long will it take for fans to turn on him? They'll call him washed up and cooked within 2 seasons if we're still average. Some had already turned on Rutten 5 games into the season after an unexpected finals appearance in his first year.
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We're talking purely hypotheticals. I think Clarko would at least be afforded a pass until his 3rd season before criticism is valid, much like Rutten is now.

This club is going nowhere if they fire Rutten within the first 5 years.
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Sure, that's your opinion. You could also look at it as the best coach of the modern era and probably of all time is looking for a new club. A legitimate hard ass to drive standards and whip our list into shape. We'd need our heads read if we didn't ask the question.
 
Schnitzengruben said:
They did not start with a strong list. They built a strong list which had a lot to do with Clarko and his coaching influence. Ultimately he was responsible for the team performing the way he did.



Are we going to pretend like 2015 was 30 years ago? Footy hasn't changed that much since then. Bevo won the flag in 2016 yet nobody here would dispute him having what it takes to achieve glory again in 2022. Bulldogs even made it to a GF again in 2021. Was 5 years ago the cutoff for modern relevance?

After 2018 is a different story. I don't have all the details on a timeline but clearly there were issues with Clarko and the Board who both had different ideas where the club was it and where they wanted to go. Probably a bit of fatigue too. 2005 to 2021 - regardless of how good of a coach you are, 16 years is a long time in Footy. Probably every club needs a fresh perspective after that. Some coaches last a decade and have nothing to show for it.



We're talking purely hypotheticals. I think Clarko would at least be afforded a pass until his 3rd season before criticism is valid, much like Rutten is now.



Sure, that's your opinion. You could also look at it as the best coach of the modern era and probably of all time is looking for a new club. A legitimate hard ass to drive standards and whip our list into shape. We'd need our heads read if we didn't ask the question.
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Bulldogs 2016 was the blueprint of the current era. Richmond took Bulldogs 2016 to another level. The game has changed a lot since Clarkson last won a premiership. From rule changes to ways of scoring etc. He has an average record in the modern era.
Clarkson didn't have a strong list in 2004, but it became very strong very quickly with priority picks. So yeah he did have a strong list. He built the foundation of his list in an era that is completely different to the modern game. We don't even have close to the talent Clarkson had at his disposal.

Fatigue with Clarko is exactly what I'm worried about. Can he really push through constant pressure by a big club like Essendon? He's already been there and done that. It's very Malthouse at Carlton. Clarkson is much more suited to the GWS and Gold Coast jobs as he will be given the time and day to do what he wants with a lot of talent at his disposal.

We're in no shape to be calling for someone's head 3 seasons in.
 
JayJ20 said:
Bulldogs 2016 was the blueprint of the current era. Richmond took Bulldogs 2016 to another level. The game has changed a lot since Clarkson last won a premiership. From rule changes to ways of scoring etc. He has an average record in the modern era.
Clarkson didn't have a strong list in 2004, but it became very strong very quickly with priority picks. So yeah he did have a strong list. He built the foundation of his list in an era that is completely different to the modern game. We don't even have close to the talent Clarkson had at his disposal.

Fatigue with Clarko is exactly what I'm worried about. Can he really push through constant pressure by a big club like Essendon? He's already been there and done that. It's very Malthouse at Carlton. Clarkson is much more suited to the GWS and Gold Coast jobs as he will be given the time and day to do what he wants with a lot of talent at his disposal.u
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West Coast won in 2018 and they had a similar style to Hawthorn's in years gone by. I don't subscribe to the theory he is outdated by any interpretation or can't adapt to changing conditions. That's what separates good coaches from great coaches.

Suggestions that Rutten and his assistants could make it work but Clarko and his assistants couldn't is truly a bizarre notion to me.

He had an average record with a below average list that was decaying and traded away picks to remain relevant. As I said, there was clearly a disconnect between where Clarko wanted to take the team and where the board wanted to take it. I doubt many coaches would want to hang around after 12~ years to start another rebuild and compete once again all whilst fighting internal issues at board level.

I think having a year off from the game would've given him a clear head. He made it very clear recently after his time in America with the GSW how much he missed the action. I think he is wise enough to know what he wants.

We're in no shape to be calling for someone's head 3 seasons in.
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We're in no shape, alright.
 
Schnitzengruben said:
They did not start with a strong list. They built a strong list which had a lot to do with Clarko and his coaching influence. Ultimately he was responsible for the team performing the way he did.



Are we going to pretend like 2015 was 30 years ago? Footy hasn't changed that much since then. Bevo won the flag in 2016 yet nobody here would dispute him having what it takes to achieve glory again in 2022. Bulldogs even made it to a GF again in 2021. Was 5 years ago the cutoff for modern relevance?

After 2018 is a different story. I don't have all the details on a timeline but clearly there were issues with Clarko and the Board who both had different ideas where the club was it and where they wanted to go. Probably a bit of fatigue too. 2005 to 2021 - regardless of how good of a coach you are, 16 years is a long time in Footy. Probably every club needs a fresh perspective after that. Some coaches last a decade and have nothing to show for it.



We're talking purely hypotheticals. I think Clarko would at least be afforded a pass until his 3rd season before criticism is valid, much like Rutten is now.



Sure, that's your opinion. You could also look at it as the best coach of the modern era and probably of all time is looking for a new club. A legitimate hard ass to drive standards and whip our list into shape. We'd need our heads read if we didn't ask the question.
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Clarko is a great coach but to say he did not start with a strong list is not totally correct . Hodge Mitchell Lewis where already there and Buddy and Roughy came in the draft before he coached a game. No doubt he moulded the side into what it was.
 

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The whole Mick Malthouse trope being brought up ad nauseum is pretty farfetched tbh.

Mick Malthouse was kicked out literally right after winning a flag. Any person in their right mind would have every right to feel scorned by that. He built that list and wasn't able to go the distance with it. Ever since the succession was planned out he didn't seem on board with it.

He also didn't win 4 flags in the one era.

Compare that with Clarko, who walked away on his own accord 5 years after his last flag with the Hawks team. He was also on record in multiple articles and videos (which I can reference) where he ponders stepping back from coaching the Hawks when he felt he couldn't do much else with them. He didn't claw at his position, he pulled away to allow Sam Mitchell to take full control (who, unlike Buckley, is a total nuff). He also won 4 flags, including an actual dynasty, it isn't unusual for a person to feel that they've gotten all they could from an institution. It happens to all of us.

And out of any person that deserves another go at it, you've gotta hand that to arguably the best coach of the modern era.

You cannot just compare the two like it's black and white, pardon the pun.
 
I have been a defender of Rutten but seriously wearing thin. There is a problem with trying to implement a Richmond style (and that's not even saying the Richmond style still works the best) and the problem is the style doesn't suit or players. A sign of a good coach is one that can adapt a suitable sustainable style based on the personnel. Richmond only implemented their plan out of necessity as they had injuries and their forward line was left with Riewoldt and quick smalls. We need a coach that can change our plan based on the best fit for the team and can adapt during the game and he just can't do that. You don't see WCE rolling out the Richmond plan to win their flag and that's because their players are totally different. Oh and for a change please stop pushing the extra player up to the contest. It hasn't worked for years and if we allegedly have good midfielders then why do they need the extra?? It doesn't help our team plan if the forwards are outnumbered, all it does is mean the ball comes out really quick and even if the mids wanted to implement our zone (not that I'm saying they do) they don't have enough time to set up properly. Either Rutten needs to change the plan or they need to change Rutten.
 
I have no idea where the club will go from here and into next year. What even will be the expectations next year for Rutten to be extended into 2024-2025 if we finish 16th this season?

What is certain is that rightly or wrongly Rutten won’t be here next year if Essendon finish 2-20 (which they almost certainly will not). Still, at 2-8 with universal expectations of finals he would want to pick up a win soon. If we get pantsed by Carlton (distinctly possible) I wouldn’t be feeling to job secure at 2-10 were I him. Coaches don’t tend to have great prospects in these circumstances.

Crowds will collapse. And we know what this means.
 
CBombers17 said:
Rutten being told to dumb down the plan undermines his message and makes his job even more difficult now.

When do we revert to actually playing our strategy? When we get Langford and Snelling back? 2023?

Feel for Rutten here. The club is in dissaray.
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It's just the tail wagging the dog again.

It happens every second year because the previous year the standard of competition drops enough for us to sneak into the 8.

We get destroyed in finals, the only time we know the competition is there, so the coaches try to improve the defence, the players won't budge and we to revert to front running.

Rinse and repeat.
 
Tassieboy said:
I have no idea where the club will go from here and into next year. What even will be the expectations next year for Rutten to be extended into 2024-2025 if we finish 16th this season?

What is certain is that rightly or wrongly Rutten won’t be here next year if Essendon finish 2-20 (which they almost certainly will not). Still, at 2-8 with universal expectations of finals he would want to pick up a win soon. If we get pantsed by Carlton (distinctly possible) I wouldn’t be feeling to job secure at 2-10 were I him. Coaches don’t tend to have great prospects in these circumstances.

Crowds will collapse. And we know what this means.
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In what world was finals universally expected? Most Essendon fans I know outside of BF weren't expecting finals
 
BombersDave said:
I have been a defender of Rutten but seriously wearing thin. There is a problem with trying to implement a Richmond style (and that's not even saying the Richmond style still works the best) and the problem is the style doesn't suit or players. A sign of a good coach is one that can adapt a suitable sustainable style based on the personnel. Richmond only implemented their plan out of necessity as they had injuries and their forward line was left with Riewoldt and quick smalls. We need a coach that can change our plan based on the best fit for the team and can adapt during the game and he just can't do that. You don't see WCE rolling out the Richmond plan to win their flag and that's because their players are totally different. Oh and for a change please stop pushing the extra player up to the contest. It hasn't worked for years and if we allegedly have good midfielders then why do they need the extra?? It doesn't help our team plan if the forwards are outnumbered, all it does is mean the ball comes out really quick and even if the mids wanted to implement our zone (not that I'm saying they do) they don't have enough time to set up properly. Either Rutten needs to change the plan or they need to change Rutten.
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So you are saying we need a plan that allows us to continue playing unaccountable where we just run forward of the footy and not defend . That is what suits the players.
What we actually need is the next lot of leaders in the playing group not to be just nice blokes.
The list has no hard edge. We will be the same under any coach until we turn players over and they get on board with a defensive game plan.
 
JayJ20 said:
Am I the only one that wants nothing to do with Clarko? It's giving me Mick Malthouse at Carlton and Bomber Thompson and Woosha at Essendon vibes.
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Not really.

Remember Malthouse started coaching the Dogs in 1984. He had coached 16 seasons prior to joining Collingwood.

He was unbelievable for Collingwood, all things considered. Shit list into 2 gfs, a full rebuild and then left the club with a dynasty Buckley decided to pick apart.

Clarko is Malthouse of 2000 but a little older (he started coaching later). Whoever he is coaching now might only get 6 to 8 good years. You just need to have a plan for a transition at the right time. That's applying our conventions when it comes to age of coaches. In NFL and soccer being 60 doesn't matter.
 
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Halftimehero said:
At the very least we should have been expecting to challenge for finals, not season done by round 4.
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I think we should be a 9-14 side. We probably finish bottom 4 which is disappointing but finals wasn't on my radar.
 
2022 footy is about defence AND attack.

Defending alone will not win a flag. Need to be able to score heavily in bursts too.

Problem with us at the moment is we can do neither. We put zero scoreboard pressure on teams. If they hold 2MP we have nothing. Many times last night they double teamed him, but we still kicked to outumber situations.
 

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Coaching Staff Former Coach Ben "Truck" Rutten - Sacked for real this time - 21/8

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