Opinion Gary Ablett senior , Wayne Carey, Tony Lockett who's the best?

[Seeds]

That's a good finals record.

I do note though that Geelong fans constantly reference Ablett when he was ''over 30'', as though it's used to explain a poor performance.

He was 4xAA when he was over 30.

All his Coleman Medals and 100+ goals in a season were when he was over 30.

One could argue his best body of work was when he was over 30. Although, I recall how good he was in his 20s. The greatest half-forward flanker the game has seen.

He lost his speed and leap at 31 due to a knee injury. Wasn't quite the same player as at his peak. Still one of the best in the comp though.

It was more that by the time finals started he couldn't run at all. Became a wrestler in the goal square. He was cooked at the start of all 3 of his finals series from 94 onwards.

 

[Trav 20]

AA's were named based on h&a form. Ablett was cooked by the end of finals.

Ablett was a much better footballer in his 20s, he played up the ground and was lighter. He was breathtaking.

So every year come finals, off the back of 100+ goal seasons, he was suddenly ''cooked'' ? Rinse and repeat ?

Yeah nah.

As I've already said, I saw him in his 20s and he's the best HFF I've seen by a mile.

 

[Trav 20]

He lost his speed and leap at 31 due to a knee injury. Wasn't quite the same player as at his peak. Still one of the best in the comp though.

It was more that by the time finals started he couldn't run at all. Became a wrestler in the goal square. He was cooked at the start of all 3 of his finals series from 94 onwards.

I'll accept there's some merit in your assessment.

That said, the ''cooked'' reference is so exaggerated it reduces your overall argument.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

So every year come finals, off the back of 100+ goal seasons, he was suddenly ''cooked'' ? Rinse and repeat ?

Yeah nah.

As I've already said, I saw him in his 20s and he's the best HFF I've seen by a mile.

Pretty sure I wrote end of finals.

 

[Trav 20]

Pretty sure I wrote end of finals.

Sudden onset last final of the year syndrome ?

 

[faible]

Yes… and what was McKays goal average in wins versus losses? (3.63 v 2.64). So if Carlton had won more games would McKay have kicked more goals ..?? Of course. That’s my point. Key forward kick more goals in winning teams. It’s not a debate, it’s a fact.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Nope. Still not how it works.

 

[Slippery Pete]

To be the best of the best you first have to be the clear best of your player type.

It’s not even unequivocal that Ablett was better or more valuable to his team than Lockett or Dunstall.

It’s abundantly clear that Carey was better than any other CHF to play the game. It doesn’t matter who you put up — Brown, Tredrea, Loewe, Riewoldt, Brereton, Pavlich… nobody, not a single person, would argue any of them were better than Carey.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Sudden onset last final of the year syndrome ?

Nope, Geelong supporters of my vintage watched pretty much every game of his career at Geelong, it was as plain as the nose on your face in the last years that he was done when Geelong went deep into finals. He had nothing left in the tank.

 

[Seeds]

Sudden onset last final of the year syndrome ?

Wasnt last final, it was the whole final series and the final weeks of the home and away as well. And it only occured at age 33, 34 and 35. In the 94 prelim ablett was basically non existent. Couldnt jump or run. Kicked 6 the week before in the carlton smashing but again could not get out of a jog that game. Missed the first final in 95 due to injuries and then looked utterly terrible fitness wise in the richmond prelim smashing. Took a couple of nice wrestling marks but that was about it. Would not of been playing if his name wasnt ablett.

again how exactly do people think carey and lockett would of gone in finals at that age at the end of the season?

 

[Trav 20]

Wasnt last final, it was the whole final series and the final weeks of the home and away as well. And it only occured at age 33, 34 and 35. In the 94 prelim ablett was basically non existent. Couldnt jump or run. Kicked 6 the week before in the carlton smashing but again could not get out of a jog that game. Missed the first final in 95 due to injuries and then looked utterly terrible fitness wise in the richmond prelim smashing. Took a couple of nice wrestling marks but that was about it. Would not of been playing if his name wasnt ablett.

again how exactly do people think carey and lockett would of gone in finals at that age at the end of the season?

OK. I think I've got it.

He was superman in his 30s during the H&A, winning 3 Coleman Medals in a row while kicking over 120+ goals in 3 successive years aged 31, 32, and 33, only to succumb to the kryptonite of finals where he was suddenly ''cooked''.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

To be the best of the best you first have to be the clear best of your player type.

It’s not even unequivocal that Ablett was better or more valuable to his team than Lockett or Dunstall.

It’s abundantly clear that Carey was better than any other CHF to play the game. It doesn’t matter who you put up — Brown, Tredrea, Loewe, Riewoldt, Brereton, Pavlich… nobody, not a single person, would argue any of them were better than Carey.

You're making the mistake of comparing Ablett to players who only ever played full forward in Lockett and Dunstall. Ablett only spent the last 4 years of his career permanently in that position.

Ablett as a flanker / wingman.

33.28
82.67
65.49
53.38
82.62
87.54
75.43
28.27 (retired for half the season and was underdone the whole time he was back playing)
72.54

167 games ; 577 goals 412 behinds @ 3.45 goals per game or 23.2 points per game. Name me one other flanker / wingman in the history of the game with those numbers? I would say that it's unequivocal that Ablett was the best in that position that the game has ever seen.

I would agree that Carey was better than all of those other CHF's that you've listed, I think Brown's best was as good as Carey's best but Carey was better more often. Richmond fans and others older than me will throw Hart into the conversation, I never saw him play, but would find it hard to believe that he was better than Carey.

Permanent full forward.

124.60
129.79
122.65
69.31

81 games ; 444 goals 235 behinds @ 5.48 goals per game or 35.8 points per game. That 4 year stretch is as good as anything that Lockett or Dunstall put together, I would say only Hudson was better.

Lockett 281 games 124-1-156 44.31% winning rate
Ablett 248 games 145-2-101 58.87% winning rate
Carey 272 games 168-0-108 60.29% winning rate
Dunstall 269 games 171-1-91 65.99% winning rate

 

[Noidnadroj]

You're a hard marker. Ablett played in 16 finals, 11 of them over the age of 30.

3.3
7.7
8.5
9.1

0.0 (was the year he retired and came back, got injured)

5.1
4.5
4.2
3.1

6.6
6.3
3.0
1.2

4.1
0.3

1.3 (35 years of age, last game)

Yes, I agree I was too harsh - probably too much focus on 3 GF’s and not the full finals package. But please don’t argue age as any sort of mitigating factor. His very best football was played at the ages of 32-34yo, so it can’t be used as a reason for poor finals later in his career in those same seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[LoungeLizard]

Yes, I agree I was too harsh - probably too much focus on 3 GF’s and not the full finals package. But please don’t argue age as any sort of mitigating factor. His very best football was played at the ages of 32-34yo, so it can’t be used as a reason for poor finals later in his career in those same seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

He kicked more goals later in his career, but he played better footy when he was younger.

His very best footy IMO was when he was playing HFF and Wing

 

[Trav 20]

Yes, I agree I was too harsh - probably too much focus on 3 GF’s and not the full finals package. But please don’t argue age as any sort of mitigating factor. His very best football was played at the ages of 32-34yo, so it can’t be used as a reason for poor finals later in his career in those same seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

He's an October baby, so 31-33.

His best footy was from a HFF. But yes, the 30+ year excuses from Cats fans is laughable considering he kicked 120+ goals in 3 consecutive years during this 31-33 year old period.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Yes, I agree I was too harsh - probably too much focus on 3 GF’s and not the full finals package. But please don’t argue age as any sort of mitigating factor. His very best football was played at the ages of 32-34yo, so it can’t be used as a reason for poor finals later in his career in those same seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

You're having a laugh if you think his very best football was played from 32 to 34.

His best football was easily in his 20s.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

He's an October baby, so 31-33.

His best footy was from a HFF. But yes, the 30+ year excuses from Cats fans is laughable considering he kicked 120+ goals in 3 consecutive years during this 31-33 year old period.

Birthday less than a week after the gf. Born on 01 October. But yes from 31 to 33.

Maybe he might have kicked 150+ if Blight moved him then when he was younger.

 

[Noidnadroj]

You're making the mistake of comparing Ablett to players who only ever played full forward in Lockett and Dunstall. Ablett only spent the last 4 years of his career permanently in that position.

Ablett as a flanker / wingman.

33.28
82.67
65.49
53.38
82.62
87.54
75.43
28.27 (retired for half the season and was underdone the whole time he was back playing)
72.54

167 games ; 577 goals 412 behinds @ 3.45 goals per game or 23.2 points per game. Name me one other flanker / wingman in the history of the game with those numbers? I would say that it's unequivocal that Ablett was the best in that position that the game has ever seen.

I would agree that Carey was better than all of those other CHF's that you've listed, I think Brown's best was as good as Carey's best but Carey was better more often. Richmond fans and others older than me will throw Hart into the conversation, I never saw him play, but would find it hard to believe that he was better than Carey.

Permanent full forward.

124.60
129.79
122.65
69.31

81 games ; 444 goals 235 behinds @ 5.48 goals per game or 35.8 points per game. That 4 year stretch is as good as anything that Lockett or Dunstall put together, I would say only Hudson was better.

Lockett 281 games 124-1-156 44.31% winning rate
Ablett 248 games 145-2-101 58.87% winning rate
Carey 272 games 168-0-108 60.29% winning rate
Dunstall 269 games 171-1-91 65.99% winning rate

As a HFF (or now known as high half forward) Ablett a clear number 1. Although I didn’t see enough of Lethal to know where he played most of his career …. but 900+ goals from Lethal is insane as a mid/fwd.

As a full forward I rate Ablett ahead of anyone I’ve seen except Lockett. I won’t go over numbers I’ve posted in this thread previously, but Lockett’s goal averages from 1989-1992 when Saints were better than crud showed what he could have done in a more dominant team.

Having said that, who knows what numbers Ablett might have posted if at FF his entire career..??

All superstars of course. If starting a team from scratch such as a fledgling GWS I’d take Carey. A team contending for a flag without a gun forward such as Dogs or Bombers I’d take Lockett. Any half decent team with a key forward already I’d take Ablett.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

As a HFF (or now known as high half forward) Ablett a clear number 1. Although I didn’t see enough of Lethal to know where he played most of his career …. but 900+ goals from Lethal is insane as a mid/fwd.

As a full forward I rate Ablett ahead of anyone I’ve seen except Lockett. I won’t go over numbers I’ve posted in this thread previously, but Lockett’s goal averages from 1989-1992 when Saints were better than crud showed what he could have done in a more dominant team.

Having said that, who knows what numbers Ablett might have posted if at FF his entire career..??

All superstars of course. If starting a team from scratch such as a fledgling GWS I’d take Carey. A team contending for a flag without a gun forward such as Dogs or Bombers I’d take Lockett. Any half decent team with a key forward already I’d take Ablett.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Matthews first or second rover (depending on what year and his roving partner) changing forward pocket or a season as a permanent forward or blocks of games as a full time forward.

His numbers are amazing.

 

[blueboy25]

To be the best of the best you first have to be the clear best of your player type.

It’s not even unequivocal that Ablett was better or more valuable to his team than Lockett or Dunstall.

It’s abundantly clear that Carey was better than any other CHF to play the game. It doesn’t matter who you put up — Brown, Tredrea, Loewe, Riewoldt, Brereton, Pavlich… nobody, not a single person, would argue any of them were better than Carey.

You may have missed Stephen Kernahan on your list there

Carey
Games - 272 Games, 727 Goals
Goals in GF's - 1, 1 and 2

Kernahan
Games - 251 Games, 738 goals
Goals in GF's - 2, 3, 7 and 5

Kernahan also played 130 Sanfl games for 290 goals plus 16 State of origin games including a bag of 10 as a 20yo.

Carey was a better player but not by as much as you seem to think.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Something else to consider is Free Kicks. I think it’s safe to assume these superstar key forwards all got man handled in a similar fashion by defenders.

Free kicks received (all similar game tallies)

Ablett: 421
Kernahan: 379
Carey: 309
Richo: 309
Tredrea: 229
Dunstall: 218
Lockett: 193 (559 against)

It confirms what we probably all suspected which is that SOS and Mick Martyn etc…. used to get away with murder against Lockett and surprisingly it seems Dunstall. Although Dunstall was more your fast lead and chest mark than stand and wrestle.

Can you just imagine Lockett with the no ‘chopping arms’ or having 3 umpires watching. He would have given away 1,000 frees but would have received 1,500


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Oliver09]

OK. I think I've got it.

He was superman in his 30s during the H&A, winning 3 Coleman Medals in a row while kicking over 120+ goals in 3 successive years aged 31, 32, and 33, only to succumb to the kryptonite of finals where he was suddenly ''cooked''.

Makes perfect sense.

2 things happened to Ablett in his move to FF which affected his performance late in seasons. In the last round of 93 v WC a WC player, I think Mitchell White, took a real cheap shot at him forcing him to slam into a goalpost. It knocked the stuffing out of him. Geelong didn't make finals that year so it wasn't an issue that season. The following year he took a screamer over Pert and land quite heavily on that occasion as well. In 94-96 his form tapered off dramatically late in the season, he was old and feeling the pinch. I've always thought these 2 incidents were a big part in this.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Carey was a better player but not by as much as you seem to think.

Sticks was a champion but Carey‘s just about the best ever.

It’s not really that close tbh

 

[Noidnadroj]

2 things happened to Ablett in his move to FF which affected his performance late in seasons. In the last round of 93 v WC a WC player, I think Mitchell White, took a real cheap shot at him forcing him to slam into a goalpost. It knocked the stuffing out of him. Geelong didn't make finals that year so it wasn't an issue that season. The following year he took a screamer over Pert and land quite heavily on that occasion as well. In 94-96 his form tapered off dramatically late in the season, he was old and feeling the pinch. I've always thought these 2 incidents were a big part in this.

I’ll accept 1995 and 1996 as he was injured late 1995 and older in 1996. But the first 2 finals of 1994 he kicked 12 goals and had 21 scoring shots. So I think he was in pretty good nick going into the PF and GF of 1994.

Regardless he was a superstar and I wish like anything the Cats and him could have knocked off both the Eagles and Blues.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[WCE_phil]

The cats had at best a dead average defence. It's what stopped Ablett from winning grand finals.

I also wouldn't mark ablett down in grand final performances based on 92 and 94 either. He played against one of, if not the best back 6's of all time in a team which was focussed on defence.

Put a peak pre-knee injury Jakovich or Mcintosh in those geelong sides and they would have won both 89 and 92.

Now we're all discussing these 3 players however if the players were playing their absolute best football and i had to go watch a neutral game based on one player in their side. Pre groin issues Judd, Matera, Jarman, Mcleod, Akermanis. All midfielders who at their best would destroy teams with a combination of pace, midfield ability and goals. Jarman I would go to training just to watch. His kicking is the best i've ever seen.

 

[Shane Heard]

Carey for me

But only a bee’s penis ahead of the other two who you can’t separate as being better than the other person