Expansion GC17 and WSYD - no viability

[garygee]

Let's go through this slowly... your club does not have enough supporters in Melbourne to be sustainable... hence your club plays home games in Tasmania and your major jumper sponsor is the Tasmanian government.

How much longer can your club survive, particularly when Tasmania gets its own team? Don't worry about the Gold Coast or Western Sydney... are you not concerned about your own clubs future? Gee I would have thought, a club that has to play in Tasmania with that state as their major sponsor, doesn't have a bright future in Melbourne. Would you agree?

Over 40K members. Will post $3Mill profit this year. Pretty healthy. I'm not worried. Hawthorn are doing well on a fraction of the population of Vic and some Tassie support that I think is great.
NSW has a population of almost 7 Mill in their home state and are still being propped up. But this thread isn't about Swans. It's about the lack of viability of GC17 and WSyd. The Swans are just a good illistration of why WSyd will fail. Don't be so precious. Got a membership? Go to the games?
If so good. If not piss off.

 

[Beaussie]

Over 40K members. Will post $3Mill profit this year. Pretty healthy. I'm not worried. Hawthorn are doing well on a fraction of the population of Vic and some Tassie support than I think is great.

Wow, really? Why not play all home games in Victoria then?

Is the Victorian Hawthorn membership numbers so pathetic that it means you have no choice but to play games in Tasmania to survive?

Gee, real passionate supporters down Hawthorn way aye? Your club is most definately not sustainable in Victoria if it can't survive without the assistance of the Tasmanian government and people as supporters. Have a look at your club's website. How pathetic, the first thing one sees in the top banner is Tasmania. You sure you guys aren't planning on a relocation? You're pretty much homeless since the demise of Glenferrie and Waverley aren't ya?

Sydney have a population of almost 7 Mill in their home state and are still being propped up. But this thread isn't about Swans. It's about the lack of viability of GC17 and WSyd. The Swans are just a good illistration of why WSyd will fail. Don't be so precious. Got a membership? Go to the games?
If so good. If not piss off.

Wow, Sydney now has a population of almost 7 million aye? Oh dear. LOL

And yes, I have a Swans membership and go to games. Do you have a Hawks membership. Does it upset you that your club cannot survive in Melbourne without playing home games in Tasmania?

Your club is proof that 10 teams in Victoria is NOT sustainable.

 

[garygee]

At the risk of feeding the troll.

Hawthorn play games in Tasmania to survive? Hawthorn not sustainable in Victoria. Your club is proof that 10 teams in Victoria is NOT sustainable.

Yeah blah blah blah. I'm happy that Hawthorn is marketing itself to Tassie to guarantee the clubs continuing viability. If you were serious about your argument you'd be pointing to a couple of other clubs when questioning viability of 10 teams in Vic. Maybe you'd like to add something to the thread rather than lashing out because somebody has pointed out the lack of support you club has in it's home state.
FYI Sydney NSW based memberships 19389 Non-NSW based memberships 6549. Figures supplied by Sydney Swans. THAT is pathetic.
Now tell me why you think WSyd is viable.

 

[cos789]

Why are all these bazillions of AusRules fans in Qld and NSW not already supporting at team? Why are they going to change?

How thick are you ? There is NO team , repeat No AFL team on the GC or in WS so when then the opportunity comes along to support a local team they will be able to support that team where previously they were unable to support an AFL team because their was no local AFL team .

But there is a side already representing each state.

Do you know how often the NSW and QLD state sides play ?
A bit irrelevent don't you think ?

So your saying that NSW and QLD people will desert their current clubs? Good basis for long term viability there.

You're the only one who keeps saying this . Nobody else is saying this .
WTF would they want to leave their current clubs for ?That's like saying they'll be leaving their rl clubs to watch the new AFL clubs .

I'll take this slow for you, what happens to Syd and Bris when these supporters desert?

I'll make this extremely slow for you . WTF makes you think they will leave ?
They're not in the same geographical area . That's the whole idea of the new AFL clubs . Create New AFL clubs in new areas and gain new suppporters.If we wanted to pinch old supporters we'd put a team in ythe Western suburbs of Sydney and pinch rl supporters .Whoops! Forget that .

 

[garygee]

How thick are you ? There is NO team , repeat No AFL team on the GC or in WS so when then the opportunity comes along to support a local team they will be able to support that team where previously they were unable to support an AFL team because their was no local AFL team . I'll make this extremely slow for you . WTF makes you think they will leave ?They're not in the same geographical area . That's the whole idea of the new AFL clubs . Create New AFL clubs in new areas and gain new suppporters.If we wanted to pinch old supporters we'd put a team in ythe Western suburbs of Sydney and pinch rl supporters .Whoops! Forget that .

So by your reasoning, there are thousands of Aussie Rules fans in WSyd and the GC who don't already support a team because there isn't one in their area. They're just sitting there waiting for a team to be created for them? What garbage. "I live in Cabramatta but I can't follow AFL because there isn't a local team." That sounds feasible doesn't it.
All those AFL fans in Fortitude Valley are just waiting for the FV Sea Slugs to be created. PHU-LEEEEASE Maybe in bizarro world.

IF you live in NSW and feel that you have to have some geographical tie to the team you support you would already support Sydney would you not? Same goes for QLD and Brisbane. Why do you support Sydney? Why have you not changed tems seeing you live in Perth? Maybe you were born in WSyd, are you going to change your support to WSyd?

 

[cos789]

So by your reasoning, there are thousands of Aussie Rules fans in WSyd and the GC who don't already support a team because there isn't one in their area. They're just sitting there waiting for a team to be created for them? What garbage. "I live in Cabramatta but I can't follow AFL because there isn't a local team." That sounds feasible doesn't it.

You answered it yourself . Not so hard was it . There is a big difference between following a team and supporting a team .

Why do you support Sydney? Why have you not changed tems seeing you live in Perth? Maybe you were born in WSyd, are you going to change your support to WSyd?

I supported the Sydney Swans because I was there when they where formed.
I supported the Sydney Swans untill I left for Perth . I still follow the Swans .
At the moment I have both Eagles and Dockers memberships thus I support them, though I barrack for the Swans when they come over .If I was to return to Sydney I would return to supporting the Swans .I would probably support the new WS side as well since the Sydney rail system makes it easy to do so .I would continue to follow the Dockers .I have young relatives that "converted" to AR after watching one Swans game at Homebush .He follows the Swans because the family does and because they are in the Eastern suburbs , however if he was in the Western suburbs I could see him identifying with a team there ,especially being part of the creation of a new team .

 

[garygee]

You answered it yourself . Not so hard was it . There is a big difference between following a team and supporting a team .



I supported the Sydney Swans because I was there when they where formed.
I supported the Sydney Swans untill I left for Perth . I still follow the Swans .
At the moment I have both Eagles and Dockers memberships thus I support them, though I barrack for the Swans when they come over .If I was to return to Sydney I would return to supporting the Swans .I would probably support the new WS side as well since the Sydney rail system makes it easy to do so .I would continue to follow the Dockers .I have young relatives that "converted" to AR after watching one Swans game at Homebush .He follows the Swans because the family does and because they are in the Eastern suburbs , however if he was in the Western suburbs I could see him identifying with a team there ,especially being part of the creation of a new team .

You are an aberration. One team for 41 years no matter where I've lived. Everyone I know that's into Aussie Rules has the same supporter/follower ethics. I couldn't dream of ever deserting the Hawks.
So if you're representative of a QLD and NSW Aussie Rules fan then Sydney and Brisbane should fear the defection of their fans.
Thus my arguments are proved.

 

[adhs]

I think a second AFL team in western Sydney will work.

When you think about it the AFL has never properly approached establishing an AFL side in Sydney in the same way they approached SA, WA and Qld markets.

In 1982 when South Melbourne moved to Sydney it was their last chance to survive and not a desire to expand Australian Football into Australia's biggest city. I think it was only in the early 90s when the Swans were close to death that there was talk about redfeining the brand and making it more relevant to the Sydney market (eg changing the nickname and colours to be more representative of NSW/Sydney). However the passion of Sth Melbourne fans and the realisation that doing so would be completely turning backs on a potential supporter base in Melbourne saw the Swans reaffirm their history even more, which culminated in Paul Roos' famous quote on the podium after the 2005 Grand Final.

However, while this history is great for the Swans it still means Sydney has never really had it's "own" AFL team with it's own Sydney personality/image.

Establishing a team in western Sydney and basing it in the geographic centre of the city, gives the AFL an opportunity to establish from the ground up a team for Sydney and the Sydney sporting market in the 21st century.

The Sydney sporting market has changed since 1982. Back then the NSWRL was the dominant code and was still based around suburban rivalries although in 1982 teams were introduced from Canberra (AFL territory) and Illawarra (sth coast NSW). Rugby union was amateur and the local suburban competition was the focus of attention and Soccer teams in the National Soccer League were still very much supported along ethinc loyalties.

Fast forward to 2008 and Sydney teams now compete in trans-Tasman competitions against teams from other states and NZ. NRL has streamlined the amount of Sydney teams in it's competition through mergers and natural attrition; Professionalism, the Super 14 and a more consistent schedule has galvanised rugby union's supporter base; Sydney FC have drawn huge crowds in only 3 seasons of the streamlined soccer A-League and the appeal of the sport has broadened with the success of the Socceroos.

While the Swans have developed and grown Australian football in Sydney over the past 25 years, with the increased competition from the other codes I can't see them being able to grow the code much further. I feel they've maxed out their potential fan base (drawn largely from the eastern suburbs and north shore) and with the end of the golden era seemingly over it will demonstrate the pressure that is on this sole club as they attempt to rebuild while remaining competitive - a problem clubs in Melbourne, Perth and Adelaide don't face as the support of the code doesn't depend on the success of their teams.

Sydney needs another AFL team, a team for the 21st century and beyond, with a Sydney identity. A western Sydney AFL team serves more of a purpose than just winning flags (Fremantle are based in an AFL state and their best finish is a Prelimary Final appearance in over a decade). They need to have a presence to compete against other codes, take the pressure off the Swans in developing Australian football and demonstrate to Sydneysiders that AFL is more than just the Swans. 2012 is not too early. Waiting any longer will allow soccer and possibly Rugby Union to establish teams in the region and rugby league will only continue to maintain it's stranglehold. By establishing a team in western Sydney the AFL is demonstrating it's commitment to footy in NSW and lightening the load on the Swans. It's more than just the twice a season blockbusters at ANZ Stadium between the Swans and the new teams... Think about it during pre-season camps when the Swans travel to Coffs Harbour, the second team can travel to Dubbo or Canberra, reaching twice as many people, AFL matches will be played in Sydney every weekend, more teams=more opportunities for aspiring AFL players in Sydney and around the country.

Western Sydney is a long-term proposition whether you launch the team in 2012 or 2020. I don't see western Sydney AFL fans marching in the streets by 2020 for their own team any more than they are now. Until they finally have a team with a logo, colours, coach and players they will continue to go along to the occasional Swans match at ANZ Stadium. So it's better to hit the ground running before these fans are taken by rival codes because once that happens it will be impossible to get them back.

 

[cos789]

You are an aberration. One team for 41 years no matter where I've lived. Everyone I know that's into Aussie Rules has the same supporter/follower ethics. I couldn't dream of ever deserting the Hawks.

What you just said goes directly opposite the below

So if you're representative of a QLD and NSW Aussie Rules fan then Sydney and Brisbane should fear the defection of their fans.

You have just prooved that AR fans will continue to support their existing Swans and Lions clubs and the new clubs will draw support from the new geographical locations .

.

 

[garygee]

What you just said goes directly opposite the below



You have just prooved that AR fans will continue to support their existing Swans and Lions clubs and the new clubs will draw support from the new geographical locations .

.

That's just complete rubbish.
Obviously English is not your first language.
NSW and QLD have 1 Representative teams for each state (Brisbane and Sydney) yet appear to have almost the lowest supporter base evidenced by their memberships and crowds for games in the home state.
The dreamers keep saying there are oodles of supporters who are going to come out of the woodwork to support the new teams. I say these supporters don't exist. They would already be supporting an AFL team. Real Aussies do not change their teams ever.
The creation of two new teams will not spontaneously give birth to 100K new Australian Rules fans.

 

[garygee]

What minute peice of logic do you put forward that refutes the previous statement .
"You have just prooved that AR fans will continue to support their existing Swans and Lions clubs and the new clubs will draw support from the new geographical locations "

So just so we have an understanding here, you are saying that there are a bunch of Aussie Rules fans waiting in GC and WSyd for the teams to come into existence so they have a team to support. These Aussie Rules fans don't currently follow/support and team because there is no team of geographical significance for them.
Is this your argument?

 

[Gibbke]

This entire thread is moot and horseshit.

The GC and WS sides will be propped up by the AFL to the tune of $100m each. They will be the direct cause of a massive increase in the cost of the tv rights. Andy will have both teams named the Cashcows, and both will run out in solid gold home jumpers, much like the new paint job on his limo when it all goes through...

The Cashcows are a favoured and protected species with even less vulnerability than Adam Goodes - which bit of this long running but crystal clear saga doesn't make sense here...?

 

[cos789]

So just so we have an understanding here, you are saying that there are a bunch of Aussie Rules fans waiting in GC and WSyd for the teams to come into existence so they have a team to support.

Once we cut cut your emotive embelishment , quite rightly ,there are are a number of Auusie Rules followers in the GC and WS .Also the AFL would hope to gain new followers and eventually new supporters from the two new regions after various promotions and onfield participation . Certainly that's a very simply and logical view .Now you can argue about the level of commitment and that will only be verified when the new teams are formed .

. These Aussie Rules fans don't currently follow/support and team because there is no team of geographical significance for them.

Geographical significance ? It's where they live and it's a simple mathmatical relationship - the further and more difficult it is to get to games the lower the take up .Some people currently take the trouble to travel form the GC to Brisbane and some people currently travel to the SCG from the WS but with the eventuality of teams within their local area more people are likely to physically make the effort to see their local team .It's an extremely simple concept and I don't see why you have so much trouble getting your head around it .

.

 

[fishmonger]

Now you can argue about the level of commitment and that will only be verified when the new teams are formed
.

Pretty expensive litmus test.

Hey, here's an idea. Lets give an AFL franchise to Townsville. Then we can verify the level of commitment they have for their new team. Surely a few tens of thousands of fans will appear out of the woodwork.

 

[garygee]

As of this morning, 16k tickets sold for a final in an 80K stadium.
Aussie rules looking like a mega success in NSW not. I feel for the North fans who can't get there. What a complete joke.

 

[garygee]

20K attendance in a Stadium that holds 80K. In a home state final no less.
Completely pathetic. NSW don't even deserve to have one team let alone two. But hey lets not take any notice of that, lets waste millions of dollars
and screw with the league and the existing teams on a pipe dream that even a cretin can see is disaster in waiting. The AFL administration should be drug tested.

 

[Black Falcon]

Brisbane and Sydney also earn significantly more from gate receipts. West Coast earn basically nothing from gate receipts as their is only a handfull of general admission seats at each game, all their money comes from Membership. Another example is the Western Bulldogs, they only earn $40,000 per home game at the Tesltra dome. North Melbourne and Melbourne have similar arrangements in the same boat.

And yet the Bulldogs, Kangas and Demons can get $ 400,000 from the AFL for playing home games in Canberra and at Carrara and Darwin! Makes you wonder why they don't do it more often............

 

[Tim_in_Philly]

NSW don't even deserve to have one team let alone two.

And there, in a nutshell, we have the erroneous thinking of a sizeable proportion (but not all) of Victorians.

Sydney DOES NOT WANT a second team. You carry on like someone who believes getting an AFL team is an honour like a knighthood. Just repeat, Sydney does not WANT a second team.

The AFL is FORCING Sydney to have a second team in the hope it can exploit the huge population of western Sydney to generate cash, much of which will come from TV rights, and will be used to keep 10 teams alive in Victoria.

I'm glad that the Swans final only drew 19,000 because it is just the wake-up call people in the AFL establishment need to remind them that it is the AFL who needs Sydney, not the other way round.

OK, just to re-inforce today's lesson:

THe AFL NEEDS Sydney, Sydney does NOT need the AFL.

 

[garygee]

And there, in a nutshell, we have the erroneous thinking of a sizeable proportion (but not all) of Victorians.

Sydney DOES NOT WANT a second team. You carry on like someone who believes getting an AFL team is an honour like a knighthood. Just repeat, Sydney does not WANT a second team.

The AFL is FORCING Sydney to have a second team in the hope it can exploit the huge population of western Sydney to generate cash, much of which will come from TV rights, and will be used to keep 10 teams alive in Victoria.

I'm glad that the Swans final only drew 19,000 because it is just the wake-up call people in the AFL establishment need to remind them that it is the AFL who needs Sydney, not the other way round.

OK, just to re-inforce today's lesson:

THe AFL NEEDS Sydney, Sydney does NOT need the AFL.

I totally agree with most everything you say except your last sentence which should read "THe AFL WANTS Sydney, Sydney does NOT want the AFL" It's pretty obvious. Much the same for Qld.

 

[Black Falcon]

Over 40K members. Will post $3Mill profit this year. Pretty healthy. I'm not worried. Hawthorn are doing well on a fraction of the population of Vic and some Tassie support that I think is great.
NSW has a population of almost 7 Mill in their home state and are still being propped up. But this thread isn't about Swans. It's about the lack of viability of GC17 and WSyd. The Swans are just a good illistration of why WSyd will fail. Don't be so precious. Got a membership? Go to the games?
If so good. If not piss off.

Could you please explain to all the kiddies out there, exactly how much the Tasmanian govt is sponsoring Hawks, either the lump sum per contract years or the amount per year. Either will do to blow a nasty little hole in that 3m profit you've recorded this year.

But what can I expect from a nasty little hole blower ?

 

[Gibbke]

$4m last time I looked. But take away any club's sponsorship, and profits get dented. What's your point?

 

[Black Falcon]

$4m last time I looked. But take away any club's sponsorship, and profits get dented. What's your point?

Why is Tasmania supporting Hawks with that sponsorship?

 

[Father Jack]

Why do people want GC17 and Western Sydney to fail? Is it because they know that the poorer teams in Melbourne are far more likely to drop off the twig than the new teams?

 

[Old Den]

NSW and QLD between them contain half of Australia's population - If circumstances had led to Aussie Rules dominating there similar to the rest of Australia they would be footy powerhouses today

The game has developed a lot in Sydney and SE QLD in recent times and will continue to BUT unlike the "traditional" states,it will compete with the Rugby codes for grass roots participation as the distinct under dog - Rugby aint going away - the codes will co-exist in the football environment that has evovled - Also we all know Soccer is developing rapidly as a rival football game all over the country - Australia's total population is growing by a million every 3 years or so which will meet the demands for elite players in all codes

The AFL is looking well into the future with the new clubs simply because of the population factor - I have no doubt that the Gold Coast club will be OK - the game is well established there and the rapidly growing community will "own" it

I don't know about West Sydney - The AFL has obviously looked closely at the feasibility of it and are proceeding with the plan

In SE QLD in the last quarter of a century Jason Dunstall,a local boy from the Coorparoo club,in a stellar VFL/AFL career kicked 1254 goals,including 100 or more a season a record 6 times - Michael Voss,Jason Akermanis and Nick Riewoldt, though all moving up from Southern States as boys all developed through the AFLQ in Brisbane and the Gold Coast,going on to great careers in the AFL as everybody knows

And there have been many others who came through the AFLQ - all this would have been completly and utterly unimaginable 30 years ago - so for the sake of our great game growing and prospering into the future,lets have some more positive thinking about these new clubs

Just a thought to conclude......Anybody who thinks that they can't possibly do a particular thing is usually absolutely right

 

[Rob]

Why is Tasmania supporting Hawks with that sponsorship?

Same reason any company sponsors an AFL club I suppose.