Banter Geelong V Richmond - GO!

[Wosh]

In the interests of keeping your back and forth shite fights out of match threads so normal people can talk.

Keep it clean and above the shorts
Off topic rubbish clogging up match threads will be moved here, knock yourselves out.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

and yet geelongs dynasty team was better then the the teams that 3 peated let alone richmond who arent even in the conservation.

Which Chris Scott was so eager to point out at press conferences post-2017, unprompted.

'We don't think they are a great side'

Nek minnut ... he coughs up a dynasty to them

 

[Seeds]

Which Chris Scott was so eager to point out at press conferences post-2017, unprompted.

'We don't think they are a great side'

Nek minnut ... he coughs up a dynasty to them

Quoting the wrong geelong poster if you want to argue over chris scott.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Seriously we can summarize the whole history thing very cleanly between these two clubs:

GFC has humiliated RFC plenty in the last 3 decades, really hurtfully.

BUT, in a strange twist, RFC owns Geelong 10:2 in finals going back to 1921.
Given 1995 was a GOAT Blues team and Richo had done his knee, only 1931 was realistically taken from RFC by Geelong in finals.

So take your pick, do you prefer to win by 170 points H&A in 2007, with a dominant Brad Ottens rubbing salt in the wound?

Or win the big finals in 1921, 31 (semifinal), 33, 34, 67, 69, 80, 2017, 19, 20?

Since most people won't remember '80 or earlier, the answer is not necessarily obvious.

 

[Mr Meow]

Seriously we can summarize the whole history thing very cleanly between these two clubs:

GFC has humiliated RFC plenty in the last 3 decades, really hurtfully.

BUT, in a strange twist, RFC owns Geelong 10:2 in finals going back to 1921.
Given 1995 was a GOAT Blues team and Richo had done his knee, only 1931 was realistically taken from RFC by Geelong in finals.

So take your pick, do you prefer to win by 170 points H&A in 2007, with a dominant Brad Ottens rubbing salt in the wound?

Or win the big finals in 1921, 31 (semifinal), 33, 34, 67, 69, 80, 2017, 19, 20?

Since most people won't remember '80 or earlier, the answer is not necessarily obvious.

Take the 2007 game out and that self belief for the dynasty might never arrive. It all clicked that game, after a dodgy start to the season that preceded the disastrous 2006.

The close H&A game in 2022 was one the players counted as very important - yes they still respected Richmond that much.

So Richmond have been our fluffers in the years they were in obscurity.

We're glad you guys got some much needed elation in the years Geelong were good but not great - 3 pretty recent flags and 1 soon after certainly cushioned the blow. Hopefully eventually we can meet again in that setting. I've put 2058 down a realistic year for it to occur.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Take the 2007 game out and that self belief for the dynasty might never arrive. It all clicked that game, after a dodgy start to the season that preceded the disastrous 2006.

The close H&A game in 2022 was one the players counted as very important - yes they still respected Richmond that much.

So Richmond have been our fluffers in the years they were in obscurity.

We're glad you guys got some much needed elation in the years Geelong were good but not great - 3 pretty recent flags and 1 soon after certainly cushioned the blow. Hopefully eventually we can meet again in that setting. I've put 2058 down a realistic year for it to occur.

The only reason you think Geelong were good and not great in that era is because Richmond were beyond good and stood in the way.

The 2017 losing QF team had 8 x All-Australians … 8! It included Geelong royalty and likely hall of famers in Danger, Selwood, Hawkins, Stewart, Taylor, Mackie - most of them at their absolute peak. Plus peak Duncan who many Cats fans argue should be a multiple AA player.

Then the 2019 losing PF team contained 8 x AA players also. The midfield was Danger, Kelly, Selwood and Guthrie at their peak. Plus GAJ who was AA squad member that year.

The 2020 GF team also contained 8 x AA players.

Now I realise there are teams who’ve had more AA players. But this narrative that Cats fans like to peddle out of : ‘we weren’t actually all that good from 2017-2020’ is laughable when your team contains 8 x AA players in each losing final…. which does not include players in those games the calibre of Duncan, Tuohy, Miers, Henry, Dalhaus, Atkins, Menegola, Motlop, Lonergan, Bews, Koladasnij and Henderson.

And it was against peak Danger. Selwood. Hawkins. Stewart. All have 5+ AA guernseys and will be HOF players.

But yeah… team wasn’t all that much chop. Only because despite Geelong being a great team… Richmond were greater.


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[Mr Meow]

The only reason you think Geelong were good and not great in that era is because Richmond were beyond good and stood in the way.

The 2017 losing QF team had 8 x All-Australians … 8! It included Geelong royalty and likely hall of famers in Danger, Selwood, Hawkins, Stewart, Taylor, Mackie - most of them at their absolute peak. Plus peak Duncan who many Cats fans argue should be a multiple AA player.

Then the 2019 losing PF team contained 8 x AA players also. The midfield was Danger, Kelly, Selwood and Guthrie at their peak. Plus GAJ who was AA squad member that year.

The 2020 GF team also contained 8 x AA players.

Now I realise there are teams who’ve had more AA players. But this narrative that Cats fans like to peddle out of : ‘we weren’t actually all that good from 2017-2020’ is laughable when your team contains 8 x AA players in each losing final…. which does not include players in those games the calibre of Duncan, Tuohy, Miers, Henry, Dalhaus, Atkins, Menegola, Motlop, Lonergan, Bews, Koladasnij and Henderson.

And it was against peak Danger. Selwood. Hawkins. Stewart. All have 5+ AA guernseys and will be HOF players.

But yeah… team wasn’t all that much chop. Only because despite Geelong being a great team… Richmond were greater.


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Nah I think what I think because of objectivity. Read the Geelong forum, we were well aware of the side's flaws each year. Doesn't mean we couldn't have jagged one but a number of teams taught those Cats finals lessons in settings where the flaws were critical. Adelaide, Port Adelaide, Melbourne and Collingwood say hi. Sydney a year earlier.

Cam Guthrie emerged as a gun midfielder one year too late (once our best performing midfielder of 2019 in Kelly, had left).

The forward line had too many plodders. Sav as a second key forward instead of Cameron - that alone could decide a flag. Atkins and Dahlhaus playing the Stengle and Close roles!

SDK as a mobile KPD and Duncan (positional move only possible with gun wingmen Smith and Holmes available) as our quarter back added speed and class respectively to our defensive unit. We could move the ball at pace from defence, through the wings and into a dynamic forward line. Compare that to 2017-2020 and there's a stark difference.

Also Scott finally found the ideal role for Blicavs, as a big bodied accountable midfielder to compliment the attacking nature of Danger and Selwood. That one wasn't directly recruitment driven but it helped having defence and wing roles filled out so that Blicavs as a midfielder could be given a shot.

Also your post once again has inaccuracies. Stewart had his debut season in 2017, Taylor and Mackie were nowhere near their absolute peak. 2019 was probably the best mix especially with Kelly's brilliant year - Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan missing in the prelim (look how many goals/assists they combined for that year) was critical to a team that lacked attacking depth. Your lack of knowledge is highlighted by the fact Cam Guthrie didn't have a strong 2019. 2020-2022 he was excellent.

 

[Mr Meow]

I understand the narrative that Geelong 2017-2020 being a great team is important to Richmond supporters, as they were the most important team they beat during those premierships. Nobody remembers those Adelaide, Port, GWS teams as world beaters even though a couple of them thumped Geelong in finals themselves.

But just like no Geelong supporter pretends Sydney, Collingwood or Brisbane in 2022 were amazing sides - despite 4 grand final appearances and 2 premierships in the next couple of seasons - no Richmond supporter has to pretend that Cats side was a spectacular one.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

The only reason you think Geelong were good and not great in that era is because Richmond were beyond good and stood in the way.

The 2017 losing QF team had 8 x All-Australians … 8! It included Geelong royalty and likely hall of famers in Danger, Selwood, Hawkins, Stewart, Taylor, Mackie - most of them at their absolute peak. Plus peak Duncan who many Cats fans argue should be a multiple AA player.

Then the 2019 losing PF team contained 8 x AA players also. The midfield was Danger, Kelly, Selwood and Guthrie at their peak. Plus GAJ who was AA squad member that year.

The 2020 GF team also contained 8 x AA players.

Now I realise there are teams who’ve had more AA players. But this narrative that Cats fans like to peddle out of : ‘we weren’t actually all that good from 2017-2020’ is laughable when your team contains 8 x AA players in each losing final…. which does not include players in those games the calibre of Duncan, Tuohy, Miers, Henry, Dalhaus, Atkins, Menegola, Motlop, Lonergan, Bews, Koladasnij and Henderson.

And it was against peak Danger. Selwood. Hawkins. Stewart. All have 5+ AA guernseys and will be HOF players.

But yeah… team wasn’t all that much chop. Only because despite Geelong being a great team… Richmond were greater.


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was an incredible team, they got the rule changes in and the flag later, otherwise it would have burned a golden generation.

 

[Mr Meow]

was an incredible team, they got the rule changes in and the flag later, otherwise it would have burned a golden generation.

Yeah nothing to do with getting Cameron, Stengle, Smith, Holmes, Zuthrie, SDK and Close. 4 of whom are still some of our most important and best players today.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Yeah nothing to do with getting Cameron, Stengle, Smith, Holmes, Zuthrie, SDK and Close. 4 of whom are still some of our most important and best players today.

That's fine if you think that way, but ask Danger, Hawkins, Selwood etc if they think one on the tail-end was enough for that team.

IMO no way they thought that was commensurate

and again, IMO, that is why this thread exists

 

[Mr Meow]

That's fine if you think that way, but ask Danger, Hawkins, Selwood etc if they think one on the tail-end was enough for that team.

IMO no way they thought that was commensurate

and again, IMO, that is why this thread exists

I think even just adding the 2022 All Australians Cameron and Stengle to that 2019-2020 team could've had a drastic effect. Throw them in alongside Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan in the 2019 prelim and you don't think Geelong would've had the firepower to capitalise? You guys used to laugh at that weak forward line, where Hawkins could be double teamed at will in finals.

In 2022-2024 Geelong has had better role players along each line as well. The top end of that 2017-2020 Geelong team was great but the weaker half was nowhere near good enough (bottom 6 or 7 especially). "Strong" weaker halves of sides have been the difference for a lot of premiership sides. Take out both side's best 10 players from that era and Richmond's team filled out much more effectively. Which is why they dealt with sides like Adelaide and Port Adelaide in finals where Geelong could not.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

I think even just adding the 2022 All Australians Cameron and Stengle to that 2019-2020 team could've had a drastic effect. Throw them in alongside Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan in the 2019 prelim and you don't think Geelong would've had the firepower to capitalise? You guys used to laugh at that weak forward line, where Hawkins could be double teamed at will in finals.

In 2022-2024 Geelong has had better role players along each line as well. The top end of that 2017-2020 Geelong team was great but the weaker half was nowhere near good enough (bottom 6 or 7 especially). "Strong" weaker halves of sides have been the difference for a lot of premiership sides. Take out both side's best 10 players from that era and Richmond's team filled out much more effectively. Which is why they dealt with sides like Adelaide and Port Adelaide in finals where Geelong could not.

I don't think you can play those time travel games, as the Hocking rule changes were enormous and took Richmond-type game styles out of contention, while bringing Geelong-type game plans back to supremacy, post 2020.
Stengle was obviously trained in the Tiger way and would have thrived. Not sure we can say for the rest.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

“Waaaah! It was the rule changes! Waaaaah!!!”

 

[Mr Meow]

I don't think you can play those time travel games, as the Hocking rule changes were enormous and took Richmond-type game styles out of contention, while bringing Geelong-type game plans back to supremacy, post 2020.
Stengle was obviously trained in the Tiger way and would have thrived. Not sure we can say for the rest.

It's ignorance to think it was rule based rather than personnel. The 7 players I mentioned made a huge difference in 2022, in terms of game style and simple output. It only just happened before Selwood, Hawkins and a few others retired or declined - that's all.

 

[STPer18]

That's what we Cats fans like to believe, but if I'm honest I'm really embarrassed by the way we won the 2022 flag, being prompted into moving the ball quicker because of a game plan conceived from outside our four walls isn't the way I'd prefer our quicker ball movement to come about.

I got to be honest, I prefer the Richmond way of coming up with a game plan that was conducive to quick ball movement from inside their four walls, and if you're honest like me, you do to. So please stop with these myths you're peddling here, all us honest Cats fans know we were lucky to have Hocking outside of our four walls influencing our new game plan.

WARPED. Geelong warped you.

 

[STPer18]

All I want from my team Geelong is to win a legit flag.

You've seen your team Geelong win more flags in your lifetime than Wooden Spoonmond. You should be rapt, Tone.

 

[All Aust]

All I want from my team Geelong is to win a legit flag.

Flog

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

That's what we Cats fans like to believe, but if I'm honest I'm really embarrassed by the way we won the 2022 flag, being prompted into moving the ball quicker because of a game plan conceived from outside our four walls isn't the way I'd prefer our quicker ball movement to come about.

I got to be honest, I prefer the Richmond way of coming up with a game plan that was conducive to quick ball movement from inside their four walls, and if you're honest like me, you do to. So please stop with these myths you're peddling here, all us honest Cats fans know we were lucky to have Hocking outside of our four walls influencing our new game plan.

Pfffft!

Welcome to BigFooty, Mr Definitely-not-a-Tigers-supporter.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Look, not all us Geelong fans talk shit like you, some of us are honest, we can admit that what Hocking did was whatever it took, in fact that's the way we've won all our flags in the AFL era, doing whatever it takes.

One team with a sash took a bullet for us, another team with a sash were made to stop playing their way.

It is what it is.

I don’t know why more Cats fans can’t just deal with this.

It’s not like they are going to take the flag off you.

It’s common knowledge in AFL circles anyway.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I don’t know why more Cats fans can’t just deal with this.

It’s not like they are going to take the flag off you.

It’s common knowledge in AFL circles anyway.

SHocking literally said he didn’t like the way Richmond and Cotchin in particular were able to stifle ball movement by aggressive manning of the mark.

So it’s not actually a secret his motivation was to help other teams with an ability to move the ball - an area of the game Richmond didn’t have a problem with.

Did it help Geelong ? Yes.

Did it help other teams ? Yes.

Did it hinder Richmond? Yes.

I don’t doubt his main motivation was to try and improve the aesthetic of the game. Would he have done the same if his beloved Geelong had won 3 x flags, with a rule to give a leg up to their competition that was rushed in with limited testing . That’s highly debatable.

The way the AFL handles rule changes in general is like a substitute teacher having a brain fart at kindergarten, and this was no different.

(the dissent rule which came and went. ‘Hands in the back’ came and went. HTB interpretation changes with the wind. Deliberate out of bounds is an inconsistent joke…. The list goes on).


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[Noidnadroj]

I understand the narrative that Geelong 2017-2020 being a great team is important to Richmond supporters, as they were the most important team they beat during those premierships. Nobody remembers those Adelaide, Port, GWS teams as world beaters even though a couple of them thumped Geelong in finals themselves.

But just like no Geelong supporter pretends Sydney, Collingwood or Brisbane in 2022 were amazing sides - despite 4 grand final appearances and 2 premierships in the next couple of seasons - no Richmond supporter has to pretend that Cats side was a spectacular one.

From 2016-2022 … 7 x seasons … Geelong didn’t miss the finals and made 6 x PF and 2 x grand finals. Not sure which metric you’d care to analyse to assess if Geelong of that era were strong or not?

You say you were stronger in 2022 thanks to the addition of Holmes, SDK, Stengle and a few others…

Nah … you were probably weaker as 2017-2020 had peak Danger, peak Selwood, peak Hawkins, quality GAJ, peak Stewart, peak Blicavs…

What was different in 2022? Peak Richmond 2017-2020 weren’t there. If peak Richmond were around Martin probably wins a 4th NS and you’d still be saying Geelong of 2017-2022 weren’t that flash.


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[STPer18]

The emasculation rort.

 

[Mr Meow]

From 2016-2022 … 7 x seasons … Geelong didn’t miss the finals and made 6 x PF and 2 x grand finals. Not sure which metric you’d care to analyse to assess if Geelong of that era were strong or not?

You say you were stronger in 2022 thanks to the addition of Holmes, SDK, Stengle and a few others…

Nah … you were probably weaker as 2017-2020 had peak Danger, peak Selwood, peak Hawkins, quality GAJ, peak Stewart, peak Blicavs…

What was different in 2022? Peak Richmond 2017-2020 weren’t there. If peak Richmond were around Martin probably wins a 4th NS and you’d still be saying Geelong of 2017-2022 weren’t that flash.


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Cameron was a top 5 player in the league 2022 (which overhauled the forward line by itself) and Hawkins had one of his best ever seasons. More midfield depth meant Selwood and Danger were fresh for finals. Stewart was All Australian, Blicavs was an All Australian midfielder (best ever season), Stengle an All Australian small forward, Smith and Holmes arguably the best wing combo in the comp and with Duncan and Zuthrie joining Tuohy at half back an elite rebounding squad. Miers as an advanced playmaking forward, made possible by the addition of Stengle and Close, was a game changer too. An elite, prime aged group of small forwards instead of the cringeworthy "misfits" of 2019-2020 (a very old Ablett was class, Miers kicked a few goals, terrible otherwise).

"But but but it was all the big bad man on the mark rule and Richmond being no good anymore!!!!". Hilarious stuff, but completely brain-dead.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

When you have to pretend to be a supporter from the other side to push your argument, you’ve already lost.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

He wasn't bad, but even with him and his 3 goals we still only managed to beat the Tigers by only 3pts in that H&A game in 2022, remembering that the Tigers at this point had their game taken away from them by Hocking.

With Cameron kicking 1 goal against the Tigers in 2023, a further 1 this season, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the Tigers may have kept him goaless in '22 when they were still decent if their game was not taken away from them, not by our coaching team, but by someone from outside our four walls.

“We”. Give it a rest.