Banter Geelong V Richmond - GO!

[Wosh]

In the interests of keeping your back and forth shite fights out of match threads so normal people can talk.

Keep it clean and above the shorts
Off topic rubbish clogging up match threads will be moved here, knock yourselves out.

 

[PhatBoy]

A side's greatness isn't dictated by AA selections alone because it isn't 5 vs 5. It's 22 vs 22 and with the required squad depth its really 28 vs 28 during any premiership challenge. Otherwise Carlton would've been top 4 shoe ins the previous 2 seasons.

More inaccuracies from you as well I see. 2014-2016 Geelong was considerably weaker than 2017-2020. 2013 didn't have a viable forward line with Hawkins stuffed back and Johnson required in midfield, but was very good otherwise (its flaws were exposed in the 2 finals it lost though). 2021 Geelong weren't much chop as Cameron had a poor season, Holmes/SDK hadn't burst on the scene, there was no Stengle and Blicavs was stuck in defence rather than an AA midfielder to take the load off Dangerfield/Selwood. Duncan wasn't able to be released into the halfback playmaker role.

So in reality 2013-2021 Geelong were a good but not outstanding team, which makes sense in terms of its finals results to not just Richmond but all the clubs it played. 2022 the flaws were addressed just before a number of veterans left or had their form finally fall off a cliff.

"But but it was a rule change and Richmond not being in the way anymore...forget about the finals lessons dished out by Sydney, Adelaide, Melbourne, Collingwood, Port Adelaide over 2016-2021"

They’ll go back to the Kardinia park dimensions in a minute

 

[Mr Meow]

lol, what does that even mean? Selwood had gone altogether, Dangerfield missed 5 games, Duncan missed 7, Rohan missed 8, Jack Henry missed 12, Stanley missed 10, SDK and Stengle missed four each.

We underwhelmed, sure, and should have done a better job defending our title but we were still in finals contention until a fortnight from the end of the regular season and Still managed 10 wins, and making out like we just wheeled out exactly the same team each week as the one that beat Sydney is somewhat misleading.


Hang on, I just realised who I’m replying to.

The players had a limited and poor pre season as well. The number of players sent off for surgery late 2023 was an indication of how cooked the side's health was that season. A better injury run and pre-season (thus added fitness) gave the side a much more competitive look in 2024, despite veterans forms continuing to decline as expected. Some of the other strengths retained from 2022 were what stopped a free fall further down the ladder. By and large it was a changing of the guard. New players like Mannagh, Humphries and Dempsey went well clear of Tuohy, Rohan and Duncan as well.

 

[Mr Meow]

Good to see you at least attempting to be humorous.

Interesting though that as soon as a realistic and gracious Cats supporter comes along you want the account banned.

Jesus, I didn't think you'd actually report the account. I see it's gone now. RIP.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Damn, looks like old mate got taken care of again. Until the next account (likely tomorrow), my friend.

The latest was particularly pathetic.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

SHocking literally said he didn’t like the way Richmond and Cotchin in particular were able to stifle ball movement by aggressive manning of the mark.

So it’s not actually a secret his motivation was to help other teams with an ability to move the ball - an area of the game Richmond didn’t have a problem with.

Did it help Geelong ? Yes.

Did it help other teams ? Yes.

Did it hinder Richmond? Yes.

I don’t doubt his main motivation was to try and improve the aesthetic of the game. Would he have done the same if his beloved Geelong had won 3 x flags, with a rule to give a leg up to their competition that was rushed in with limited testing . That’s highly debatable.

The way the AFL handles rule changes in general is like a substitute teacher having a brain fart at kindergarten, and this was no different.

(the dissent rule which came and went. ‘Hands in the back’ came and went. HTB interpretation changes with the wind. Deliberate out of bounds is an inconsistent joke…. The list goes on).


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All completely acknowledged in AFL circles, just a few on BF still refuse to admit it.

STAND was so poorly thought out, we got 'outside 5' to try to patch up the entirely predictable work-around, but were still left with the insanity of a player giving away a 50MP by running backwards away from the mark.

So a 50MP for doing exactly what Hocking was supposed to be encouraging players to do - man the mark less vigorously.

Hocking ended up back in club-land quick-smart after that, and AFL House is not exactly filled with genius to compete with!

 

[Noidnadroj]

Easily answered, 2022 was the last great year for a number of players: Hawkins, Selwood, Smith, Duncan and Tuohy for starters. It wasn't an age profile where that very old senior core would be able to carry it further, so a handover of sorts took place which bore fruit in 2024.

In 2023 Cameron went from top 5 to about a top 40 player in the league. Selwood's loss was felt keenly for a number of reasons. SDK and Kolo had poor seasons so the defence was shaky, in 2022 they were impeccable.

By 2024 several players in the 20-25 year old bracket took over and carried the side very close to a GF appearance while the veterans (mostly) continued to decline. Compare the 2024 versions of Cam Guthrie, Hawkins, Dangerfield, Stewart, Blicavs, Duncan, Tuohy, Stanley, Bews to 2022. They went from the core of the team to peripheral, or lesser versions of their old selves. Same happened to Richmond. Meanwhile Holmes, Stengle, Zuthrie, Miers and co (plus some newer players) were some of the side's MVPs.

Just because 2022 didn't carry on, doesn't mean it was a weaker side than 2017-2020. The 2022 side would've sliced the 2017-2020 team apart in the same way the 2007-2011 team would've dominated them.

Hmmm … yet you’ve previously denigrated the dominant Adelaide team of 2017 who finished top and blitzed their first 2 finals because they didn’t make finals in 2018…. interesting.



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[Mr Meow]

Hmmm … yet you’ve previously denigrated the dominant Adelaide team of 2017 who finished top and blitzed their first 2 finals because they didn’t make finals in 2018…. interesting.



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If I don't think that Adelaide team was an all timer and they thumped the 2017 Cats by 1000 points in a prelim...it's fairly logical that it wasn't the "unbelievably outstanding" Geelong team you seem to be pretending they were.

 

[Noidnadroj]

lol, what does that even mean? Selwood had gone altogether, Dangerfield missed 5 games, Duncan missed 7, Rohan missed 8, Jack Henry missed 12, Stanley missed 10, SDK and Stengle missed four each.

We underwhelmed, sure, and should have done a better job defending our title but we were still in finals contention until a fortnight from the end of the regular season and Still managed 10 wins, and making out like we just wheeled out exactly the same team each week as the one that beat Sydney is somewhat misleading.


Hang on, I just realised who I’m replying to.

Yep … this ‘great’ team of 2022 copped a few injuries and the retirement of a 35yo and dropped to 12th in 2023. But they were much better than a team that went PF, PF, EF, PF, GF, PF in the 6-years from 2016-2021…

Alrighty then.


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[Footy Smarts]

Yep … this ‘great’ team of 2022 copped a few injuries and the retirement of a 35yo and dropped to 12th in 2023. But they were much better than a team that went PF, PF, EF, PF, GF, PF in the 6-years from 2016-2021…

Alrighty then.


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I think the 2022 team was a step up on those teams but most importantly the team's form and fitness came together all at once.

2017 we weren't great. 15-1-6 with a percentage of 117. That's only winning a premiership if you massively improve by finals like Richmond did that year. We didn't.

2018 we were well off the pace.

2019 we had the quality to win it. But by finals we had a lot of players struggling for form and we were missing Hawkins and Duncan for the prelim who were in our best 7-8. Add in Rohan and our forward line was a joke.

2020 we were a genuine shot. Ultimately in the second half of the GF we made bad blues while Richmond were more composed and Martin played an outrageous game.

2021 similar to 2019. Cooked with injuries (Stewart the big one) and form by finals.

2022 we were a good team and it all came together.

Realistically pre 2019 we would've absolutely stolen it if we won a flag. 2019-2022 we were a genuine shot at the flags. Winning only one is maybe a slight underperformance. But this isn't some great team where winning only 1 is a massive choke.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yep … this ‘great’ team of 2022 copped a few injuries and the retirement of a 35yo and dropped to 12th in 2023. But they were much better than a team that went PF, PF, EF, PF, GF, PF in the 6-years from 2016-2021…

Alrighty then.


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They were.

We won 82 per cent of our games in the 2022 home and away season, not 67, and once you throw finals in that percentage goes up to 86. So yeah, we were a significantly better performed team.

In 2022 we copped basically no injuries, in 2023 we copped a few, we still should have done better than we did, but hey, we underperformed. So what. What is your point.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I think the 2022 team was a step up on those teams but most importantly the team's form and fitness came together all at once.

2017 we weren't great. 15-1-6 with a percentage of 117. That's only winning a premiership if you massively improve by finals like Richmond did that year. We didn't.

2018 we were well off the pace.

2019 we had the quality to win it. But by finals we had a lot of players struggling for form and we were missing Hawkins and Duncan for the prelim who were in our best 7-8. Add in Rohan and our forward line was a joke.

2020 we were a genuine shot. Ultimately in the second half of the GF we made bad blues while Richmond were more composed and Martin played an outrageous game.

2021 similar to 2019. Cooked with injuries (Stewart the big one) and form by finals.

2022 we were a good team and it all came together.

Realistically pre 2019 we would've absolutely stolen it if we won a flag. 2019-2022 we were a genuine shot at the flags. Winning only one is maybe a slight underperformance. But this isn't some great team where winning only 1 is a massive choke.

This is a fair summary. Your 2017-18 teams weren't flag material. But your 2019-20 teams would have won flags in some other seasons for sure. But for Richmond, they would have almost certainly won both flags in 2019-20. All your teams 2019-20-21-22 could have won the flag if they fired at the right time and didn't bump into what were very strong Melbourne and Richmond teams.

 

[Footy Smarts]

This is a fair summary. Your 2017-18 teams weren't flag material. But your 2019-20 teams would have won flags in some other seasons for sure. But for Richmond, they would have almost certainly won both flags in 2019-20. All your teams 2019-20-21-22 could have won the flag if they fired at the right time and didn't bump into what were very strong Melbourne and Richmond teams.

We lost the qualifying finals in both 2019 and 2020.

I think in 2020 we would've been a good shout against Port after we kicked ourselves out of it in the QF.

But in 2019 we were a mess by finals. I actually think we did really well to push Richmond in the PF. The forward line we rolled out that day was truly comical.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

We lost the qualifying finals in both 2019 and 2020.

I think in 2020 we would've been a good shout against Port after we kicked ourselves out of it in the QF.

But in 2019 we were a mess by finals. I actually think we did really well to push Richmond in the PF. The forward line we rolled out that day was truly comical.

You could as easily have won either of those QF's you lost in 2019-20.

Your forward line in the 2019 PF had 1 player of any note missing - Hawkins, who Richmond had well and truly covered in 2 other finals. Richmond of course also had Rance missing and Graham crocked early in the game. Your forward line in that match was populated by players of the calibre of Ablett, Kelly, Dangerfield, Miers, Dahlhaus(a Premiership player.) Henderson(a very experienced player you traded a rd 1 pick for 3 years earlier) & Ratugolea struggled but it is not like you had no firepower. Geelong were the second highest scoring team in 2019, and were by far the lowest conceding team. That team could easily have won a flag and you would back the 2019 Geelong team with an average full strength indicator to more than match it with plenty of runners-up this century.

 

[Mr Meow]

This is a fair summary. Your 2017-18 teams weren't flag material. But your 2019-20 teams would have won flags in some other seasons for sure. But for Richmond, they would have almost certainly won both flags in 2019-20. All your teams 2019-20-21-22 could have won the flag if they fired at the right time and didn't bump into what were very strong Melbourne and Richmond teams.

This argument falls down once you realise Geelong lost finals to Collingwood in 2019 and Port in 2020. That doesn't automatically predict Geelong would've lost another final if Richmond weren't there but its absolutely ludicrous to somehow lock in winning any other final by default. Your point would make more sense if Geelongs only finals losses 2019-2020 were to Richmond.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

This argument falls down once you realise Geelong lost finals to Collingwood in 2019 and Port in 2020. That doesn't automatically predict Geelong would've lost another final if Richmond weren't there but its absolutely ludicrous to somehow lock in winning any other final by default. Your point would make more sense if Geelongs only finals losses 2019-2020 were to Richmond.

Geelong could as easily have won those finals v Collingwood & Port, both of whom have plenty of top 4 finishes between them from 2018-2024(8 between them.) Cats had level scoring shots with Collingwood, and 4 more than Port Adelaide.

If you put 2019 Geelong into that 2019 GF v GWS, with the benefit of all available hindsight, Geelong would be starting a very short priced favourite, it would be silly to say otherwise.

But you are saying otherwise.

 

[Mr Meow]

Geelong could as easily have won those finals v Collingwood & Port, both of whom have plenty of top 4 finishes between them from 2018-2024(8 between them.) Cats had level scoring shots with Collingwood, and 4 more than Port Adelaide.

If you put 2019 Geelong into that 2019 GF v GWS, with the benefit of all available hindsight, Geelong would be starting a very short priced favourite, it would be silly to say otherwise.

But you are saying otherwise.

Could've would've should've - great sides get the job done. The argument you guys are putting forward is that those Geelong sides were great.

Once is unlucky but look how many finals those apparent flaws were exposed in, year after year. You simply couldn't book in any finals win that wasn't a SF through that era. Too much was left to too few and the game plan + personnel was only finals proficient in 2022.

It's valid to say, despite the flaws, the group under performed in finals 2017-2020. However its simply wrong to state that only Richmond stopped some dynasty run. It can easily be argued that if Richmond weren't around, all that would've happen is sides like Adelaide, Port, Brisbane, Collingwood or GWS would've saluted.

 

[Footy Smarts]

I do love the Tiger fans trying to convince us that we were a great team from 2017-2020. That Lachie Henderson (in his only game for us as a forward) and an inexperienced Esava Ratugolea is a premiership worthy key forward duo.

Geelong fans know what a truly great team looks like.

2007-11 we went 105-20. 84% win rate.
2017-20 we went 60-1-33. 64% win rate. No season had better than a 67% win rate.

One of those is a great team that dominated the competition. The other is a good team that competed but were never the clear best team in the comp let alone dominant. Could've snuck a flag but didn't. Annoying but it would be a lot more annoying if 2022 didn't happen (or 07, 09 and 11).

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Could've would've should've - great sides get the job done. The argument you guys are putting forward is that those Geelong sides were great.

Once is unlucky but look how many finals those apparent flaws were exposed in, year after year. You simply couldn't book in any finals win that wasn't a SF through that era. Too much was left to too few and the game plan + personnel was only finals proficient in 2022.

It's valid to say, despite the flaws, the group under performed in finals 2017-2020. However its simply wrong to state that only Richmond stopped some dynasty run. It can easily be argued that if Richmond weren't around, all that would've happen is sides like Adelaide, Port, Brisbane, Collingwood or GWS would've saluted.

I have never said they were great sides, wtf are you on about. Had Richmond not defeated them in 3 finals you can bet your last dollar that Cats team would be seen as great. Richmond were a great team. Geelong were 19 & 39 points shy of that level when put to the test in 2019 & 2020.

If Geelong win those finals v Richmond they udoubtedly win the 2019, 2020 & 2022 flags and would possibly seen as somewhere on a level with Carlton's 1979-82 triple flag team, where they weren't especially dominant in those finals series.

To say otherwise you have to have to make shit up. Which you have.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I do love the Tiger fans trying to convince us that we were a great team from 2017-2020. That Lachie Henderson (in his only game for us as a forward) and an inexperienced Esava Ratugolea is a premiership worthy key forward duo.

Geelong fans know what a truly great team looks like.

2007-11 we went 105-20. 84% win rate.
2017-20 we went 60-1-33. 64% win rate. No season had better than a 67% win rate.

One of those is a great team that dominated the competition. The other is a good team that competed but were never the clear best team in the comp let alone dominant. Could've snuck a flag but didn't. Annoying but it would be a lot more annoying if 2022 didn't happen (or 07, 09 and 11).

Mate nobody is saying you were a great team 2017-20. You were proven to be 19, 39, 51 points short of the one great team of the era, Richmond. Basically 6 goals per final on average. Had Richmond somehow magically choked the 3 finals, it is not inconcievable Geelong wins all 3 flags, but would almost certainly have won 2 of them. Had that happened Cats supporters everywhere would be claiming your team was great, with no variation in your own team's performance.

 

[Noidnadroj]

This argument falls down once you realise Geelong lost finals to Collingwood in 2019 and Port in 2020. That doesn't automatically predict Geelong would've lost another final if Richmond weren't there but its absolutely ludicrous to somehow lock in winning any other final by default. Your point would make more sense if Geelongs only finals losses 2019-2020 were to Richmond.

I don’t think it’s stretching things to say if Cats win the 2019 PF they would beat GWS in the Grand Final. GWS were competitive with Richmond for 20 mins then obliterated.

2019 Cats finished top with a percentage of 135%. They were 11-1 after round 12 with a percentage of 151%. Took the foot off the pedal once top spot was assured mid-season. A really dominant season.

But 2020 was the biggest missed opportunity. They lost an away final to Port they could’ve easily won. But then destroyed Magpies and Lions at the GABBA, which was Geelong’s home ground for that COVID season.

Grand Final was at the GABBA. Where for the 2020 season Cats were 6-0 with a percentage of 237%! Richmond had played the GABBA 3 times in 2020 for a 2-1 record and percentage of 111%. It was a real gift to Geelong for the GF to be played there.

I remember the odds had it split 50/50, so Geelong were genuinely on fire heading into that Grand Final after two dominant finals victories… they were fit and healthy and at their COVID home ground they had everything in their favour. They’d have easily accounted for any other team in the GF at the GABBA that year - they even flogged the Lions.



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[PhatBoy]

You could as easily have won either of those QF's you lost in 2019-20.

Your forward line in the 2019 PF had 1 player of any note missing - Hawkins, who Richmond had well and truly covered in 2 other finals. Richmond of course also had Rance missing and Graham crocked early in the game. Your forward line in that match was populated by players of the calibre of Ablett, Kelly, Dangerfield, Miers, Dahlhaus(a Premiership player.) Henderson(a very experienced player you traded a rd 1 pick for 3 years earlier) & Ratugolea struggled but it is not like you had no firepower. Geelong were the second highest scoring team in 2019, and were by far the lowest conceding team. That team could easily have won a flag and you would back the 2019 Geelong team with an average full strength indicator to more than match it with plenty of runners-up this century.

Please. Henderson? He was a really really underrated pick up as far as his value goes in defence, no argument from me - I thought he did a great job when he came over but he was a hopeless forward the handful of times we had to use him.

Our leading goalkickers that year (per game) were Hawkins and Rohan. Neither played.

You well and truly kicked it up a notch when we pushed you and we had no response, no harm me saying that and I don’t believe having those guys would have changed the result. You were a better side than we were anyway. But we did well to at least make a game of it

 

[PhatBoy]

Mate nobody is saying you were a great team 2017-20. You were proven to be 19, 39, 51 points short of the one great team of the era, Richmond. Basically 6 goals per final on average. Had Richmond somehow magically choked the 3 finals, it is not inconcievable Geelong wins all 3 flags, but would almost certainly have won 2 of them. Had that happened Cats supporters everywhere would be claiming your team was great, with no variation in your own team's performance.

But we didn’t.

You don’t get flags for having a reasonable and consistent but still unremarkable home and away record, and being a long way behind in a preliminary final when there are two teams who went further, one of whom beat you convincingly, the other of whom comes to Victoria and beats you regularly.

Even if in an alternative universe we win those flags, and then win 2022, we compare those teams to 07-11, our win rate is a fair bit lower overall, we drop two finals in those flag years compared to winning 9/9 in our 07-11 flags, the personnel isn’t on the same level. It’s good but not as great.

 

[Mr Meow]

I don’t think it’s stretching things to say if Cats win the 2019 PF they would beat GWS in the Grand Final. GWS were competitive with Richmond for 20 mins then obliterated.

2019 Cats finished top with a percentage of 135%. They were 11-1 after round 12 with a percentage of 151%. Took the foot off the pedal once top spot was assured mid-season. A really dominant season.

But 2020 was the biggest missed opportunity. They lost an away final to Port they could’ve easily won. But then destroyed Magpies and Lions at the GABBA, which was Geelong’s home ground for that COVID season.

Grand Final was at the GABBA. Where for the 2020 season Cats were 6-0 with a percentage of 237%! Richmond had played the GABBA 3 times in 2020 for a 2-1 record and percentage of 111%. It was a real gift to Geelong for the GF to be played there.

I remember the odds had it split 50/50, so Geelong were genuinely on fire heading into that Grand Final after two dominant finals victories… they were fit and healthy and at their COVID home ground they had everything in their favour. They’d have easily accounted for any other team in the GF at the GABBA that year - they even flogged the Lions.



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More bizarre and hilarious inaccuracies by you.

2019

Hawkins: 80 combined goals/assists
Rohan: 40 combined goals/goal assists
Duncan: 36 combined goals/assists

You're taking out the side's two most prolific marking forwards and easily its best kick inside 50, who was also going a goal a game as well. I'm sure doing the same for Richmond would have had a significant impact. Instead you had Blicavs on a wing, a crocked Henderson at full forward and Esava trying to be the other KPF. A disastrous combination.

That was the missed opportunity. A year later they got past the choke artists Brisbane but the overall output of the full strength team was not the same as 2019. Maybe with Kelly, and a non-cooked Ablett it would have been close.

Regardless, the other finals failures highlighted the flaws in each part of the field (slow defence, lack of midfield depth/defensive capacity, too many passengers and plodders up forward) even with a full strength line up. Finals intensity/speed showed it up and that's why it was a good, not great side. I really am glad you rated them as mighty foes and an outstanding team - you just do so more than the most one eyed Cats supporter ever did. All power to you.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

What's done is done, Richmond won the last great AFL dynasty, not Geelong.

BUT things change. The rules changed.

Richmond doesn't play breakneck, dirty clearance football anymore, and they just selected a bunch of big-bodied mids and mobile talls in the draft, classic Chris Scott body-type players.

We have Geelong-type players, and will attempt to play Geelong-style footy.

So, who really won?

 

[Mr Meow]

What's done is done, Richmond won the last great AFL dynasty, not Geelong.

BUT things change. The rules changed.

Richmond doesn't play breakneck, dirty clearance football anymore, and they just selected a bunch of big-bodied mids and mobile talls in the draft, classic Chris Scott body-type players.

We have Geelong-type players, and will attempt to play Geelong-style footy.

So, who really won?

For now, the side with the most recent premiership and total premierships in the national era.

If Richmond rise again without too much further embarrassment, they can make a claim at being a great club of the modern era. If there's a lot of obscurity then of course the gap grows.