No Oppo Supporters General AFL discussion and other club news

[HedgeFund]

I employ a lot of people. Some need constructive criticism and teaching. Some need to be managed out. Humiliation never works, and is toxic. And in this instance, it clearly didn’t work, as it very rarely does. Hopefully those responsible learn to move on from these 1990s methods.

He’s naturally going to be selective in his re-telling of the experience. If he had been spoken to by his coaches privately about the issue in previous weeks, he’s never going to admit it is he?

 

[PenAndPaper]

I employ a lot of people. Some need constructive criticism and teaching. Some need to be managed out. Humiliation never works, and is toxic. And in this instance, it clearly didn’t work, as it very rarely does. Hopefully those responsible learn to move on from these 1990s methods.

The problem is that he wasn't responding properly to being coddled either. I'm also 100% with you that humiliation never works and Tom may have felt humiliated from this personal experience but I don't think the action of the coaches was humiliating in itself.

 

[cryptor]

Following on from what i said the reason for the focus on the videos on Tom is obvious. If not let me spell it out. The game probably had several players not to keep to structure just like Tom but their actions were through inexperience and ignorance. Tom's actions were deliberate and repetitive through every game prior

There’s another clip from that podcast that was shared on Tom’s instagram story. Where he said when he came onto the ground late in the GF to take his place in the defensive structures, he instead took it upon himself to go to Lachie Neale instead as he felt that was the way the Lions could win.

Good for him that they managed to hold on and win, but I wonder how he’d have taken the criticism in the review if the Lions had scored a winning goal as a result of him not defending the ground as his teammates and coaches planned.

 

[Billyc]

He’s naturally going to be selective in his re-telling of the experience. If he had been spoken to by his coaches privately about the issue in previous weeks, he’s never going to admit it is he?

You’ve missed the point

 

[TheFourPillars]

Teaching/coaching by humiliation very rarely works. Whether Tom deserved constructive criticism from the coaches doesn’t mean that’s an effective way to communicate.

So what do you do in this instance if its deliberate and consistent. Do we just drop him for not following instruction and then have more humiliation as the media ask why?

 

[Big Hotdog]

Teaching/coaching by humiliation very rarely works. Whether Tom deserved constructive criticism from the coaches doesn’t mean that’s an effective way to communicate.

Setting the minimum standard is a lesson for the team and not just Tom.

 

[Hawker55]

You’ve missed the point

Of course it doesn't work but if a senior player is routinely not following instructions, doing his own thing and essentially challenging a new coach (because that's what it was) then you have two options - you either move the player on or you lose authority.

Tom also showed up to the Pies Mad Monday in his Hawks guernsey. He's obviously upset about how it went on, but this reflects poorly on him.

 

[Off The Couch]

Or its a reflection on Tom Mitchell who was pushed out of two clubs

Talk about miss the point

It doesn’t matter if it’s factual or the context of it, it’s the perception

 

[suedehead]

Of course it doesn't work but if a senior player is routinely not following instructions, doing his own thing and essentially challenging a new coach (because that's what it was) then you have two options - you either move the player on or you lose authority.

Tom also showed up to the Pies Mad Monday in his Hawks guernsey. He's obviously upset about how it went on, but this reflects poorly on him.

He showed up in Finn McGuiness's guernsey as a little nod to the job Finn did on Daicos. Let's not overreact here.

Sent from my SM-F711B using Tapatalk

 

[Billyc]

So what do you do in this instance if its deliberate and consistent. Do we just drop him for not following instruction and then have more humiliation as the media ask why?

Do you manage people and if so, do you resort to those tactics if someone isn't responding well to feedback? Quite aside from not being a great way to treat people, it's just ineffective and doesn't work.

Surprised this is being debated in 2023 to be honest.

 

[jenniferHAWKinS]

Can we move on from T Mitchell. He had similar issues at the Swans and will have similar problems at the Pies in his remaining years. Longmire and S Mitchell could only take so much from a player that required other players to cover for him defensively. He has now openly sooked about his 2 previous coaches and they are not the problem.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Do you manage people and if so, do you resort to those tactics if someone isn't responding well to feedback? Quite aside from not being a great way to treat people, it's just ineffective and doesn't work.

Surprised this is being debated in 2023 to be honest.

If a person has repeated and deliberate behaviour depending on how serious it is they get put on notice to improve and then most likely lose their job when they do not improve or refuse to change.

Edit Guess what next year he was out.

 

[Rowie6]

Teaching/coaching by humiliation very rarely works. Whether Tom deserved constructive criticism from the coaches doesn’t mean that’s an effective way to communicate.

If you are a little precious it doesn’t work?
Precious is becoming the norm!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Billyc]

If a person has repeated and deliberate behaviour depending on how serious it is they get put on notice to improve and then most likely lose their job when they do not improve or refuse to change.

Edit Guess what next year he was out.

Sure. Not the point or what is being discussed though.

 

[HedgeFund]

You’ve missed the point

Not necessarily - I realise you claim humiliation never works, but this instance has been retold as a case of an unprompted focus on Mitchell’s errors during a particular game.

It’s only humiliating if the player himself:

1. has no prior warning;
2. hasn’t been counselled previously in a more collaborative manner; and
3. Hasn’t been given an opportunity to address the issue in other games.

In the end, the tape doesn’t lie.

Mitchell’s own performance being placed in front of the playing group is humiliating ONLY if he hasn’t been given a chance to own it first.

I’ve coached players at the level below who have openly stated to me they’re fine with being held up in front of the group as making mistakes if they happen, and they find it very motivating to be challenged to improve in a public forum.

 

[Rowie6]

Do you manage people and if so, do you resort to those tactics if someone isn't responding well to feedback? Quite aside from not being a great way to treat people, it's just ineffective and doesn't work.

Surprised this is being debated in 2023 to be honest.

Have you coached elite sports people before?
Not all apples are the same!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Earlier in the year, Jordan Lewis

Jordan Lewis

Age

38

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

11.5

5star

M

5.5

5star

T

2.7

4star

MG

310.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

15.0

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

5star

presented footage of Tom at Hawthorn in a pre-game segment on Fox Footy, outlining how he would burn players, or demand the ball in bad spots, when younger players had a clear path from the inside of the contest to the outside.

I’ve heard a very specific frustration with how Tom played at times from our current leadership group, but it’s worth noting with all that is currently being said in the media that this supposed “toxic meeting” supposedly took place at the hands of Robert Harvey, not Sam Mitchell, as it was a line meeting.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Its Pies fans driving this "holier than god" narrative

Its genuinely sickening how much they want to act like they were some underdog

They are the biggest club in the comp with the most resources and largest fan base

Pathetic

 

[Sixpence]

Sure. Not the point or what is being discussed though.

But it is. This wasn't the first step in trying to change behaviour, it was a different tact. It's also not that uncommon in footy (whereas it probably would be in a normal work environment). Different players react differently.

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

Mitchell pointed out his biggest downfall in my opinion.

Remember he was a leader at at club that was finishing bottom low on the ladder… “ He was content at at the HFC”.

No leader should be content when your finishing 16th

 

[SuperSic]

The other thing that nobody seems to be considering is that Sammy clearly had a list strategy that involved removing Titch. Perhaps the feedback was intended to make him feel this way to make it easier to trade him at the end of the season.

Sam Mitchell is a very smart man, the way feedback is given to players is something he talks about often. He would have thought very long and hard about the implications of this decision.

 

[Billyc]

Earlier in the year, Jordan Lewis presented footage of Tom at Hawthorn in a pre-game segment on Fox Footy, outlining how he would burn players, or demand the ball in bad spots, when younger players had a clear path from the inside of the contest to the outside.

I’ve heard a very specific frustration with how Tom played at times from our current leadership group, but it’s worth noting with all that is currently being said in the media that this supposed “toxic meeting” supposedly took place at the hands of Robert Harvey, not Sam Mitchell, as it was a line meeting.

Pretty important detail that would no doubt elicit a different reaction from those blindly defending these dated methods around here.

 

[Billyc]

What if it was Robert Harvey and not Sam Mitchell? Would all the same blind defences of these dated methods apply?

 

[Philhawk]

I think the very name of Tom's podcast speaks to what he thinks of himself - a ball magnet. The game has changed - and Tom racking up 32 disposals a game wasn't what was needed of him last year. The coaching staff knew that, but I think Tom had a tough time getting his head around that fact.

The sheer mention "I got Brownlow votes that game" speaks to how he probably still doesn't get it. I can do my work faster than every single other person in the office and make a song and dance about it, but if I'm working on the wrong thing - what's the point.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

What if it was Robert Harvey and not Sam Mitchell? Would all the same blind defences of these dated methods apply?

Give it a rest champ

It was Robert Harvey, but being able to cop feedback is an issue of Mitchells, goes back to Sydney

Dated methods?, you clearly have no idea about how high performance environments work

People point to the pies this year as being "warm and relaxed", but McCrae baked the playing group on multiple occasions

"dated methods" are an excuse for people who use harsh feedback as an excuse to not evolve and get better

Soft