Mega Thread Has Clarko reached his use-by-date? *** All coach related discussion in here please***

[Phil McCreviss]

With out Hodge, yes I am saying it is a talent thing. And you did have Hodge in last years Prelim, granted it wasn't his best ever game, but he was still good in and around the ball and gave great leadership. You played great in the prelim, but to justify your midfields ability on one solitary game played last year seems a little ridiculous doesn't it? Does that mean the Bombers of 2011 can point to them being better than the Cats midfield because they beat them?

Where would you rank your midfield, purely on talent and Hodgeless in terms of the rest of the competition?

I'd think Geelong, Collingwood, West Coast, Sydney, Carlton, St.Kilda, Richmond, Adelaide and maybe even Essendon have more talent in their midfields. Chuck a firing Hodge and Rioli in there and you are definitely right toward the top, but both seem unable to play there due to injuries.

Completely disagree. I mean we lost 4 games all season last year. This year we have lost 4 in the first 9 rounds. Luke Hodge, as great as he is, does not justify the difference in our team this year compared to last.

So going back to your talent argument how do you explain that win/loss ratio from 2011 to 2012? There is no logic behind it. It is purely gameplan and desire....anyone who can't see that is kidding themselves, particularly opposition supporters who don't know our club as well as we do.

 

[eldorado]

Consider? Sign me up. Hell sign me up for pick 7 alone.. Cyril is magic and amazing in bursts, but is never going to be an out and out gun. .

Wow.

That Pick #7 is a gun though, isn't he? Cyril was only Pick#12, so pick #7 is nearly twice as good!

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Completely disagree. I mean we lost 4 games all season last year. This year we have lost 4 in the first 9 rounds. Luke Hodge, as great as he is, does not justify the difference in our team this year compared to last.

So going back to your talent argument how do you explain that win/loss ratio from 2011 to 2012? There is no logic behind it. It is purely gameplan and desire....anyone who can't see that is kidding themselves, particularly opposition supporters who don't know our club as well as we do.

I think there clearly is.

What I see is that Hawthorn have declining midfielders like Sewell and Burgoyne who don't seem like they will be getting any better. Add that to Hodge out, Mitchell struggling to carry the load and that the lower ranked sides from 2011 have improved, Richmond being a good case in point. Hawthorn haven't improved in the midfield, in fact they have gone backwards and they don't really have the class coming through to give the necesary improvement in the midfield area of the ground.

Example, nearly all the top 8 sides have solid young midfielders who you could reasonably expect to continue to improve greatly this year.
Bombers: Zaharakis, Melksham
West Coast: Gaff, Shuey, S Selwood
Collingwood: Sidebottom, Beams, Blair
Sydney: Parker, Kennedy (not so young but huge improvement)
Geelong: Duncan, Christensen
Adelaide: Sloane, Dangerfield

Now Hawthorn don't really have these kinds of players. Smith is absolute quality at running the ball, but he can't win it himself and seems a purely outside kind of player. Shiels might have been the guy, but with injuries and form issues it hasn't happened, Whitecross has improved but doesn't seem to have the ability of the above mentioned guys. Savage in his 2nd real season can't really be asked to dominate. There are no 21-24 year old young guns.

If you stand still you get left behind, so even though it is likely on talent your midfield was top 4 last year it simply isn't so this year.

I also think the uncontested chipping brand of footy got your midfielders a lot of the ball and got their confidence up. Now teams go one on one with you and it is far harder to get some easy confidence building touches. Teams wont let that chipping style of play happen anymore and it means your midfield is required to win more contested ball, more clearances and spread better from these situations, and with slowish guys in there it isn't happening, especially against other top midfields.

 

[J0NNY B]

Whitecross if played in the midfield will become an A grade player. Simple as that, let him develop in the midfield. Let him play to his strengths.

 

[muston09]

what annoys me, he drafts two rucks , i assume as insurance! then wont play them when bails is injured, opting to play one of two forwards in the ruck instead! we then get dominated in the ruck. meanwhile Mccaulay is playing great footy in the two's! and on top of that we have a young enthusiastic onballer playing good to great footy in the two's and cant get a run in our out of form midfield, what the fk is going on!!!!other teams inject youth and win, why dont we!! plus if we didnt need those rucks why waste picks on them when we need mids!

 

[A Diakos]

I think there clearly is.

What I see is that Hawthorn have declining midfielders like Sewell and Burgoyne who don't seem like they will be getting any better. Add that to Hodge out, Mitchell struggling to carry the load and that the lower ranked sides from 2011 have improved, Richmond being a good case in point. Hawthorn haven't improved in the midfield, in fact they have gone backwards and they don't really have the class coming through to give the necesary improvement in the midfield area of the ground.

Example, nearly all the top 8 sides have solid young midfielders who you could reasonably expect to continue to improve greatly this year.
Bombers: Zaharakis, Melksham
West Coast: Gaff, Shuey, S Selwood
Collingwood: Sidebottom, Beams, Blair
Sydney: Parker, Kennedy (not so young but huge improvement)
Geelong: Duncan, Christensen
Adelaide: Sloane, Dangerfield

Now Hawthorn don't really have these kinds of players. Smith is absolute quality at running the ball, but he can't win it himself and seems a purely outside kind of player. Shiels might have been the guy, but with injuries and form issues it hasn't happened, Whitecross has improved but doesn't seem to have the ability of the above mentioned guys. Savage in his 2nd real season can't really be asked to dominate. There are no 21-24 year old young guns.

If you stand still you get left behind, so even though it is likely on talent your midfield was top 4 last year it simply isn't so this year.

I also think the uncontested chipping brand of footy got your midfielders a lot of the ball and got their confidence up. Now teams go one on one with you and it is far harder to get some easy confidence building touches. Teams wont let that chipping style of play happen anymore and it means your midfield is required to win more contested ball, more clearances and spread better from these situations, and with slowish guys in there it isn't happening, especially against other top midfields.

In case you haven't noticed, this topic refers to A Clarkson the coach..it is not about our playing list, or our midfield talent, to which you have provided some "fairandbalanced" insights via some long posts...we "appreciate" your sermons, but please try and post them under a more appropriate topic.

One final note, this playing list did beat your mob by 4 goals 2 months ago

 

[IBleedBrownNGold]

I think there clearly is.

What I see is that Hawthorn have declining midfielders like Sewell and Burgoyne who don't seem like they will be getting any better. Add that to Hodge out, Mitchell struggling to carry the load and that the lower ranked sides from 2011 have improved, Richmond being a good case in point. Hawthorn haven't improved in the midfield, in fact they have gone backwards and they don't really have the class coming through to give the necesary improvement in the midfield area of the ground.

Example, nearly all the top 8 sides have solid young midfielders who you could reasonably expect to continue to improve greatly this year.
Bombers: Zaharakis, Melksham
West Coast: Gaff, Shuey, S Selwood
Collingwood: Sidebottom, Beams, Blair
Sydney: Parker, Kennedy (not so young but huge improvement)
Geelong: Duncan, Christensen
Adelaide: Sloane, Dangerfield

Now Hawthorn don't really have these kinds of players. Smith is absolute quality at running the ball, but he can't win it himself and seems a purely outside kind of player. Shiels might have been the guy, but with injuries and form issues it hasn't happened, Whitecross has improved but doesn't seem to have the ability of the above mentioned guys. Savage in his 2nd real season can't really be asked to dominate. There are no 21-24 year old young guns.

If you stand still you get left behind, so even though it is likely on talent your midfield was top 4 last year it simply isn't so this year.

I also think the uncontested chipping brand of footy got your midfielders a lot of the ball and got their confidence up. Now teams go one on one with you and it is far harder to get some easy confidence building touches. Teams wont let that chipping style of play happen anymore and it means your midfield is required to win more contested ball, more clearances and spread better from these situations, and with slowish guys in there it isn't happening, especially against other top midfields.

Great post, mate.

Thanks for contributing. I think we can all learn a lot from how we are perceived outside the club. Sometimes we become fixated by our own view of things and this can be equally as dangerous as "doing nothing".

 

[Phil McCreviss]

In case you haven't noticed, this topic refers to A Clarkson the coach..it is not about our playing list, or our midfield talent, to which you have provided some "fairandbalanced" insights via some long posts...we "appreciate" your sermons, but please try and post them under a more appropriate topic.

One final note, this playing list did beat your mob by 4 goals 2 months ago

Thankyou. Two months ago Collingwood were probably questioning their own mids...hell they were doing it a few weeks ago against Carlton. And now the pretentiousness of coming on here and telling us we have no talent.

Swings and roundabouts mate. Eventually you will go through some bad losses and I will make sure that I am the first to post "Collingwood have gone backwards". How enlightening.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

In case you haven't noticed, this topic refers to A Clarkson the coach..it is not about our playing list, or our midfield talent, to which you have provided some "fairandbalanced" insights via some long posts...we "appreciate" your sermons, but please try and post them under a more appropriate topic.

One final note, this playing list did beat your mob by 4 goals 2 months ago

Apologies, my point was perhaps Clarkson doesn't have as talented a team (especially in the mids) as we all thought at the beginning of the year.

I guess it still might be his fault if you believe he was responsible for recruiting and trading to compile the list you have.

 

[A Diakos]

The fairandbalanced posts are an obvious view that our midfield engine is old and slow

this old and slow midfield beat his team by 4 goals this season, and made a prelim that lost by 2 points...it also beat the crows by 10 goals this year

it does not touch on why this team continuously loses matches it should win (6 times over 4 years to cats and in last years prelim to pies) and it does not touch on why the white flag has been raised twice this year (swans tigers). No matter how old or slow it is, losing games from winning positions repeatedly, and raising white flags or buckling in defeat and getting steamrolled cannot be explained by this obvious observation.

thus in my opinion, it isn't a great post, rather an obvious view that we can see for ourselves, that masks further and deeper issues about our club, and also provides a convenient justification from other clubs supporters...ie your hawk team is shit and there is no other issue with coach, professionalism etc...it may well be that is all it boils down to, but i don't buy that given all the reasons i mentioned above.

 

[Hungry Hawk]

Great post, mate.

Thanks for contributing. I think we can all learn a lot from how we are perceived outside the club. Sometimes we become fixated by our own view of things and this can be equally as dangerous as "doing nothing".

Great comment on a great post.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Thankyou. Two months ago Collingwood were probably questioning their own mids...hell they were doing it a few weeks ago against Carlton. And now the pretentiousness of coming on here and telling us we have no talent.

Swings and roundabouts mate. Eventually you will go through some bad losses and I will make sure that I am the first to post "Collingwood have gone backwards". How enlightening.

I didn't say you have no talent, I said that there is a lack of talent in the midfield. You certainly have the best talent in the league in the forward line.

If you have a problem with any of my points, then couldn't you address them instead of making this about the team I support?

 

[Phil McCreviss]

The fairandbalanced posts are an obvious view that our midfield engine is old and slow

this old and slow midfield beat his team by 4 goals this season, and made a prelim that lost by 2 points...it also beat the crows by 10 goals this year

it does not touch on why this team continuously loses matches it should win (6 times over 4 years to cats and in last years prelim to pies) and it does not touch on why the white flag has been raised twice this year (swans tigers). No matter how old or slow it is, losing games from winning positions repeatedly, and raising white flags or buckling in defeat and getting steamrolled cannot be explained by this obvious observation.

thus in my opinion, it isn't a great post, rather an obvious view that we can see for ourselves, that masks further and deeper issues about our club, and also provides a convenient justification from other clubs supporters...ie your hawk team is shit and there is no other issue with coach, professionalism etc...it may well be that is all it boils down to, but i don't buy that given all the reasons i mentioned above.

Couldn't have put it better myself. 2 reasons why we are losing:

1. We just don't have the talent (rubbish, we won 18 games last year with the same list)
2. We lack desire and our gameplan is wrong

The fact we were good enough to win 18 games without Roughead says a hell of a lot to me. The ability and talent is there, the belief, desire and gameplan is not.

 

[The BIG X]

FandB - I appreciate your comments.
I am still furious with our game plan yesterday and believe things won't improve till our Coach is prepared to listen to reason and come up a PLAN B.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

I didn't say you have no talent, I said that there is a lack of talent in the midfield. You certainly have the best talent in the league in the forward line.

If you have a problem with any of my points, then couldn't you address them instead of making this about the team I support?

Going round in circles mate. You are on the Hawthorn board. I believe we have the midfield talent to match it with the best. You don't.

Now just out of curiosity, what sort of reaction would I get if I went on to the Pies board after a 10 goal loss and started discussing your lack of talent in the backline/midfield ie Maxwell, Harry O Brien, Dawes etc?

 

[Gilbert_Hodge]

The most puzzling move of all, and it's happened in a few games now, is the forward line set up at a centre bounce. Why on earth would you place all your forwards on the wing/centre square? It's just conciding that we will loose the clearance and play with a defensive mind set.

We looked like an absolute rabble with no structure and heart. Shameful doesn't even explain it.

 

[macdaddio]

Before we start quoting injuries....look at Geelong Scarlett hardly plays, Vardy, Varcoe etc....Collingwood..half their team is injured but u dont see them get blown away by 60 pts to a tigers team who i must admit is improving...the difference between us and a Geelong and Collingwood is the will to compete, and stem momentum when momentum is not going your way...the coach plays a big part on that....cos he controls the matchup and gameplan....my guess Clarko is asking way too much of the team...players don't believe the gameplan is achievable....or it don't work because other teams know what your going to do....

The injury excuse for 2009 and 2010 came from the Club and our President, that is not my view..

 

[lickmerocks]

Going round in circles mate. You are on the Hawthorn board. I believe we have the midfield talent to match it with the best. You don't.

Now just out of curiosity, what sort of reaction would I get if I went on to the Pies board after a 10 goal loss and started discussing your lack of talent in the backline/midfield ie Maxwell, Harry O Brien, Dawes etc?

Phil- we were spanked and twice this year against the swans and tigers we have waived the white flag and given up.

Our mids- Lewis Sewell Mitchell and Shiels run at snail pace and every supporter and coach in the league knows we have run our race in that area and require change.

We will win enough games in Tassie and the G to mask thee issues and make the 8 and everyone will say we have been ok and perhaps we have another campaign in these aging mids.

Ps- I think our taxing game plan of everyone running up and gown the park every week has contributed to these warriors running out of juice earlier than most thought.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Going round in circles mate. You are on the Hawthorn board. I believe we have the midfield talent to match it with the best. You don't.

Now just out of curiosity, what sort of reaction would I get if I went on to the Pies board after a 10 goal loss and started discussing your lack of talent in the backline/midfield ie Maxwell, Harry O Brien, Dawes etc?

I wouldn't mind if it was based on solid points but I guess I can see where you're coming from. Some would take offence like u have. I have close family who are hawk nuts and I keep an interest in how they are going.

Good luck for the rest of the year.

 

[The Kipster]

Our list is wasted, it's time to go Mr Clarkson.

Just get our footy team playing some good structured footy and not this energy zapping, pie in the sky bullsh*t game style that is picked off too easily by contested man on man footy.

 

[The BIG X]

Our list is wasted, it's time to go Mr Clarkson.

Just get our footy team playing some good structured footy and not this energy zapping, pie in the sky bullsh*t game style that is picked off too easily by contested man on man footy.

Short and sweet - Well said Kip

 

[NICE1]

Whitecross if played in the midfield will become an A grade player. Simple as that, let him develop in the midfield. Let him play to his strengths.

Cant believe how overated whitecross is by our supporters. HAd a good start to the year but has done nothing since ....

We have gone from a hard intimidating and uncompromising football side to a skill ful precise kicking team and our current list is structured around supporting this gameplan - this is pretty much code word for soft and we now have too many players who cant play one on one and win a contest.

One thing i have noticed, regardless of what the players say in the media, onfield it looks like he is starting to lose the players. i think st.kilda were in our boat last year and its amazing what a new coach brings...they have dropped lyons tiresome gameplam, the players seems inspired again and some.youth has been injected jnto the team which might not have happened if lyon was still there.

coaches have their favourite plans and strongly believe in their gameplan...CLarkson will not deviate unless he is forced to.

 

[NICE1]

I wouldn't mind if it was based on solid points but I guess I can see where you're coming from. Some would take offence like u have. I have close family who are hawk nuts and I keep an interest in how they are going.

Good luck for the rest of the year.

Mate you can do and say what you want. Just disregard the sooks.

 

[Gilbert_Hodge]

Where's the 'unsociable football' that gave us a competitive advantage over our competition? We are getting beaten up like little school kids out there. Grow some balls and put on the big hits and make the opposition think twice about going for the pill.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Mate you can do and say what you want. Just disregard the sooks.

Hardly being sooks. Providing an argument that hasn't been adressed. I can assure you our issues are not talent based at this point.