Coming off 14th/16 and 16th/16. Carlton 5th/17 and 10th/18. Collingwood were kids, avg age 23.04. Carlton a mature team at 25.41. Fair to say the expectations were different. And Malthouse opened with five straight wins at Collingwood.
Has Malthouse Been A Failure?
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Coming off 14th/16 and 16th/16. Carlton 5th/17 and 10th/18. Collingwood were kids, avg age 23.04. Carlton a mature team at 25.41. Fair to say the expectations were different. And Malthouse opened with five straight wins at Collingwood.
PieBeast
Brownlow Medallist
Dramoth
Premium Platinum
You guys must still love him because you are always talking about him...
He won us a flag, the question is, what do you think of him?
S
What's his record? 3 GF wins in 30 years. 2 of them being at WCE with their concessions when they started.. Then moving to the rich collingwood for 1 more win.. Then instead of taking the challenge of melb/port he goes to another massive/rich club in Carlton.. If McKenna wins 2 gfs with goldcoast is he all of a sudden a mastermind like mick?
What's his record? 3 GF wins in 30 years. 2 of them being at WCE with their concessions when they started.. Then moving to the rich collingwood for 1 more win.. Then instead of taking the challenge of melb/port he goes to another massive/rich club in Carlton.. If McKenna wins 2 gfs with goldcoast is he all of a sudden a mastermind like mick?
Dramoth
Premium Platinum
I think that it is still too early to tell. A lot of work needs to be done with our list and some different types of players to what we have been getting in of late needs to come in.
Ratten, much as I love him as a Carlton champion, loved the fast flowing game and got in a lot of players who were one way runners. Unfortunately, with the flood tactics in use these days, the problem with the quick style of play that Carlton were using is that if you turn it over, the ball goes back over your head to quickly to get back and cover your opponent and the opposition scores to easily.
Add in that our defence was a shambles with a bunch of very inexperienced guys in there who were still struggling to work together as a team (mainly because we never got the chance to play a settled back 6 because our defenders seemed to be getting injured all the time and then we were rushing them back in as soon as they were fit enough to play and they would get injured again). And we still see it these days where the defender is on the Carlton goal side of their opponent so that if the ball comes over their head, their opponent is in the clear. Thats slowly changing... but it will change.
The litmus test of whether Malthouse has been a failure will be performed at the end of next year. If we are still a dysfunctional unit at the end of next season, I would have to start agreeing that Malthouse could be seen as a failure. But using the pies as an example, you guys were basketcases when Malthouse arrived and within a couple of years he had started to build a fairly functional unit and got you into a couple of grand finals against the paddlepops and then the team started to improve.
I dont know what sort of clean out you guys had when Mick took over, but I am guessing that he probably parsed a lot of dead wood from the team and started to rebuild it. We have a fair core to the team of experienced and talented players... but they have been spoilt by a coach who was their mate first and the disciplinarian coach second... if he ever really handed out any discipline to the players.
Bump this thread next year and I will come and talk some more to you about it and give a more learned answer to the question.
I still maintain a good marking forward and two big bodied mids will turn Carlton around. I think it may be too late for that though with Judd looking cooked and Scotland and Simpson coming towards the end.
Lucas and McLean was a stuff up, though Henderson was a good get that year.
I also think the comments about Carlton being impatient is very true and the deal to get Judd was probably the death of this list. Not only did they pay a premium by giving up a gun KPF that would have matured with the team they missed out on getting a few more high draft picks. This on top of favouring playing types that have an immediate impact over those that take a little longer to develop but end up having a big impact, such as the big bodied mids and KPPs.
Despite all the doom and gloom Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer, Garlett, Watson, Henderson, Menzel, Bootsma and Tuohey are a good core to build around. Cachia and others have popped up this year too. This is a very different place to where they began this rebuild. They also have players worth something on the trade table to hurry it along. Lucas, Betts and Yarran have not been great this year (Lucas hasn't ever been much really) but could get something on the trade table.
Lucas and McLean was a stuff up, though Henderson was a good get that year.
I also think the comments about Carlton being impatient is very true and the deal to get Judd was probably the death of this list. Not only did they pay a premium by giving up a gun KPF that would have matured with the team they missed out on getting a few more high draft picks. This on top of favouring playing types that have an immediate impact over those that take a little longer to develop but end up having a big impact, such as the big bodied mids and KPPs.
Despite all the doom and gloom Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer, Garlett, Watson, Henderson, Menzel, Bootsma and Tuohey are a good core to build around. Cachia and others have popped up this year too. This is a very different place to where they began this rebuild. They also have players worth something on the trade table to hurry it along. Lucas, Betts and Yarran have not been great this year (Lucas hasn't ever been much really) but could get something on the trade table.
Dramoth
Premium Platinum
I think that we paid overs for McLean when we got him... and he was never a speedster even before his leg injuries at Melbourne, but he is a player who just keeps running all day and these days we are getting some good service out of him. It would be great if he was about 2 yards faster, but you cant have everything in life.
As for Lucas, he has started to come on well this year after 2 years of having his injuries from his first season mismanaged and being on the outer last year with Ratts. I think that another season under MM will make a massive difference to him and allow him to grow his confidence in his skills. When he has time and a bit of space, he is a good user of the ball. That being said, if we hadnt thrown up our first round pick for Brock and tried to get him with our second or third which would have been more acceptable, then we could have gotten Talia and Lucas with our two first round picks.
gardiner stand
Premiership Player
- Banned
- #1,538
malthouse is stubborn old man coaching for the wrong reasons,cash and spite.His methods are history.But he is not responsible for this bunch of prima donnas,the previous coach created the soft culture we have at carlton.I have never seen a team wave the white flag as often as this bunch.Just look at the captain for an example,no will,guts and determination just happy to cash the big pay cheque and hes not alone-
waite
gibbs
yarran
walker
Jamison(most overrated defender in our history)
betts
Warnock
excused-
tuohy
Henderson
simpson
judd
The rest are on the trade table for second rounders, captain included,and if we cant get that third rounders will do.
Must never play for carlton again-
Gibbs
Yarran
Lucas
mclean
Waite
Jamison
Robinson
Warnock
Rowe
Davies
hampson
Curnow
Cachia
White
Joseph
waite
gibbs
yarran
walker
Jamison(most overrated defender in our history)
betts
Warnock
excused-
tuohy
Henderson
simpson
judd
The rest are on the trade table for second rounders, captain included,and if we cant get that third rounders will do.
Must never play for carlton again-
Gibbs
Yarran
Lucas
mclean
Waite
Jamison
Robinson
Warnock
Rowe
Davies
hampson
Curnow
Cachia
White
Joseph
Scodog10
Brownlow Medallist
I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say failure, however at this stage he seems to be a square peg trying to fit into a round hole.
His greatest strength while with my club was squeezing every last drop of talent out of a player and creating an environment in which they were able to be the best they could possibly be whereas in this year at Carlton I can only name 4 players that are playing better under MM than Ratten.
Henderson, Touhy, Walker and to a lesser extent Lucas have become better footballers than they were pre-Malthouse and besides those players all others IMO have either stagnated or gone backwards.
MM's solution to this quandry is to cut those players rather than exploring an avenue to get the most out of them. There is talent there as the squad is practically the same as the one that narrowly missed out on a prelim berth in 2011 so why not invest further in development as opposed to ousting roughly 10 players?
One last point. They've lost 2 games to bottom 4 teams at Etihad this year that they would have won at the G, again IMO, because they just don't play Etihad well. That would leave them at 11-9 and in the 8 on % so now is the time for Carlton supporters to rally behind them so they can get away from that shithole!
His greatest strength while with my club was squeezing every last drop of talent out of a player and creating an environment in which they were able to be the best they could possibly be whereas in this year at Carlton I can only name 4 players that are playing better under MM than Ratten.
Henderson, Touhy, Walker and to a lesser extent Lucas have become better footballers than they were pre-Malthouse and besides those players all others IMO have either stagnated or gone backwards.
MM's solution to this quandry is to cut those players rather than exploring an avenue to get the most out of them. There is talent there as the squad is practically the same as the one that narrowly missed out on a prelim berth in 2011 so why not invest further in development as opposed to ousting roughly 10 players?
One last point. They've lost 2 games to bottom 4 teams at Etihad this year that they would have won at the G, again IMO, because they just don't play Etihad well. That would leave them at 11-9 and in the 8 on % so now is the time for Carlton supporters to rally behind them so they can get away from that shithole!
gardiner stand
Premiership Player
- Banned
- #1,540
That's because there's nowhere to hide at Etihad,you have to put your body on the line there>This is why our downhill skiers love the G where they have space to run and play on their terms(I think robbo calls it bruise free football).The captain got into the heat of the kitchen a couple of times at Etihad and didn't like it when real footballers like Dangerfield and Hodge sorted him out.Now he never wants to get back in there because he's just plain scared.
You can count the coaches who've won flags at two clubs on your fingers. Took the perennially-bad Bulldogs to their second top-two finish in 60 years, and got the youngest GF team in quarter of a century into successive grand finals, two years after a wooden spoon. The guy can coach, or could.
I thought you used a database for all your stats?
It's a dramatic way of saying there are 8.
It's a dramatic way of saying there are 8.
Pretty sure you dont need any fingers to count coaches aged in their 60's who have won flags at three clubs....
Where has Monkey King gone? He must have conceded defeat.
It was a bad loss and even Mick will be struggling to dodge the bullets now.
On the plus side there is an assistant coach at Hawthorn who could be a great replacement. He has experience, is a club legend, could pay him half, has seen how a successful club works. Could do worse than him.
It was a bad loss and even Mick will be struggling to dodge the bullets now.
On the plus side there is an assistant coach at Hawthorn who could be a great replacement. He has experience, is a club legend, could pay him half, has seen how a successful club works. Could do worse than him.
LOL. For a week. But ok. Still wouldn't want to drop 3 places; doesn't change the point much huh
LOL. For a week. But ok. Still wouldn't want to drop 3 places; doesn't change the point much huh
2nd or 5th, its all equal last.
I reckon we're in a pretty good spot for a team in mini rebuild mode, just a game and a half out of the top four. Shame about our early season injuries and our midseason loss to the Suns but no panic at Colingwood, head down bum up.
It took Buckley one season to find a ruckman through the draft that Malthouse spent 12 years doing unsuccessfully. All good thanks.
What was your point again? Did you have one?
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