Autopsy Hawks vs The Pusscats

[grumbleguts]

If James Frawley has had a go it is quite different to a hawthorn player taking a cheap shot, which it possibly is. I say possibly as there may be some context or not the details are vague and anything coming from Selwood is not worth a pinch.
If the comments came from Frawley, he has a lot of inside knowledge about the man and his character and most likely the consensus at the club of why he left and how relevant his depression was.
I am sure I know as much as you do which is nothing and agree it is not where players should be going in terms of sledging. If it was really untoward then a formal complaint should be made but at this stage the only thing that has been said is that mitch mentioned something about a sledge post match.

Mitch has made very public his battle with depression and good on him and if a player said to him 'the scoreboard looks a bit sad for you guys' or made a more direct hurtful reference it is two different things and I would think any reference would be in the context of some back and forward banter not a deliberate tactic. The player may not have even meant it exactly as it came out or even regretted it immediately. There were some punches thrown in the match was that the result or the cause of the comment?
I am guessing Mitch has thrown some stones and then cried foul because his glass house was damaged.
The physical cheap shot of Johnson on Mitchell is as expected as low level banter with Mitch that has been so high profile. It is like most jokes they can go to far and we do not know the detail and a high horse is not always the best place to see from.

Great post.

 

[GOHORCS]

Definitely not saying he will go and top himself after a few taunts - more that's it's not a good look. Would get done for workplace bullying in a flash if it was a workplace. I know footys a tough and harsh place - just think we can leave out stuff about people's illnesses - doesn't sit right with me. Again - I don't think it happened

Sport and workplaces are not comparable. Bullying can only be a sustained situation not an isolated comment.

 

[savagelunchbox]

The old ''I am obviously better than you" resonse over an internet forum. Ha.

Get a grip. Race, sex, mental illness all out of bounds. If you think otherwise, it is much more of a poor reflection on you than me mate.

I said that because you obviously haven't realised the club, just like every club, has people who work for them who are some of the best psychological people in the country and their job is to aware the coaches and players of where specific players are mentally vulnerable and how to exploit it without crossing the line. Mitch Clark would have been at the top of the list.

No complaint was made and no comments have been leaked. Unless you're new to the AFL world, you would know that these type of things, things that have overstepped that line, are never kept secret.

If you think race, sex and mental illness aren't used to get under a player's skin, then you're living in a wonderful world of naivety.

 

[grumbleguts]

Utterly disagree. Sex, religion, culture and mental illness/family situations all shouldn't be on field.

Play the ball, not the man. If you are going to play the man, leave all of the above out of it. I mean, its not as if Hawthorn players didn't have much ammunition considering how we played on Monday.....

Well said Joel. And you know because you were there right? Right on the field, and although your eyes wrre tearing up and misty, your ears were working just fine so you heard every word. Tell me, does the baby oil you put on your shoulders make you speak out more? Not by the way straight after the game, but rather a few days later after you've thought about how to make it sound.

 

[cats2rise]

Sport and workplaces are not comparable. Bullying can only be a sustained situation not an isolated comment.

Still does not make it right.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I'd be more worried about those within the Hawthorn playing ranks who are or will suffer from depression now or in the future.

If they heard this themselves, they've probably just ruled out the football club (a massive part of their life) as a supportive environment, when it should be the most supportive.

It would be naive in the extreme to think that Mitch Clark is the only AFL player with a mental illness. A decent study would probably show a handful at each club on average.

You make it sound like the Hawthorn leadership pushed Mitch down into the players race and all stood around him taking turns in taunting him.

We don't know what the comment was, but we can assume it was pretty minor, considering it was only mentioned in passing after the game.

 

[Cynic]

I'll wait for Clark to man up and name names before criticising the whole football team.

 

[B&GBlood]

Mental health is out of bounds IMO but in saying that he deserves a whack based on his decision not to return to the club that supported his decision to walk away from the game by terminating his contract only to return 12 months later at another club.

I think this is wrong. Following scenario plays the same. Very good player X at poor club has a few injury probs that need 12 months to heal. X thinks I'd rather be at Flag contending club, pulls the depression card, takes 12 months off to heal and wanders into club of choice. Suss

 

[GOHORCS]

I'd be more worried about those within the Hawthorn playing ranks who are or will suffer from depression now or in the future.

If they heard this themselves, they've probably just ruled out the football club (a massive part of their life) as a supportive environment, when it should be the most supportive.

It would be naive in the extreme to think that Mitch Clark is the only AFL player with a mental illness. A decent study would probably show a handful at each club on average.

How many have had a prime time special detailing it. The sceptic in me thinks it was a PR stunt to enable him to get out of the mebourne contract utilising the FACT that he has been struggling with depression which every single person will at some time. (Just the time of having symptoms that leads to a diagnosis.)

 

[JustKickIt]

I think this is wrong. Following scenario plays the same. Very good player X at poor club has a few injury probs that need 12 months to heal. X thinks I'd rather be at Flag contending club, pulls the depression card, takes 12 months off to heal and wanders into club of choice. Suss

It's a new type of free agency

 

[Crankyhawk]

I'd be more worried about those within the Hawthorn playing ranks who are or will suffer from depression now or in the future.

If they heard this themselves, they've probably just ruled out the football club (a massive part of their life) as a supportive environment, when it should be the most supportive.

It would be naive in the extreme to think that Mitch Clark is the only AFL player with a mental illness. A decent study would probably show a handful at each club on average.

Supportive environment will be available to those players who are OURS and no support for players who are not. It is a simple case of tribalism. Thankfully we are not all campaigning social justice warriors.

Although comments from crowd suggesting Clark might neck himself did go too far.

 

[cats2rise]

I said that because you obviously haven't realised the club, just like every club, has people who work for them who are some of the best psychological people in the country and their job is to aware the coaches and players of where specific players are mentally vulnerable and how to exploit it without crossing the line. Mitch Clark would have been at the top of the list.

No complaint was made and no comments have been leaked. Unless you're new to the AFL world, you would know that these type of things, things that have overstepped that line, are never kept secret.

If you think race, sex and mental illness aren't used to get under a player's skin, then you're living in a wonderful world of naivety.

Good post - But you have slightly missed my point. I am suggesting that if what was said had crossed the line, it was poor form. And that by coming on your board, I was surprised at some of the reactions saying that its fair game - thats all.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Utterly disagree. Sex, religion, culture and mental illness/family situations all shouldn't be on field.

Play the ball, not the man. If you are going to play the man, leave all of the above out of it. I mean, its not as if Hawthorn players didn't have much ammunition considering how we played on Monday.....

Potential for confusion - Hawks player could tell Clark he is playing like a sad sack which is both playing badly and also a potential depression reference.

 

[savagelunchbox]

Are people forgetting who the coach of the Cats is? He's the biggest sook and squealer in the coaching ranks. Had a line been crossed, it would have been the first thing he said in his post-game presser. Nothing was said, not even the most subtle of indications.

It wasn't even mentioned leading up until Selwood was talking about how Motlop was a naughty boy because he got outed then lo and behold, Selwood cries to the umpire and tries to direct the blame on Hawthorn for sledging yet he can't give any details about what was said, who said and if it did cross a line. It was all very vague to take the focus of his teammates.

I'll say it again, the finer details don't remain unknown this long in the world of the AFL.

 

[play2win]

Are people forgetting who the coach of the Cats is? He's the biggest sook and squealer in the coaching ranks. Had a line been crossed, it would have been the first thing he said in his post-game presser. Nothing was said, not even the most subtle of indications.

It wasn't even mentioned leading up until Selwood was talking about how Motlop was a naughty boy because he got outed then lo and behold, Selwood cries to the umpire and tries to direct the blame on Hawthorn for sledging yet he can't give any details about what was said, who said and if it did cross a line. It was all very vague to take the focus of his teammates.

I'll say it again, the finer details don't remain unknown this long in the world of the AFL.

in his press conference he looked genuinely shocked at how far back his team is from the frontrunner. it had just dawned on him that the year ahead was going to amount to nothing. now he is trying to find any excuse for his players poor performance and provide some glimmer of hope. that and hoping that danger comes to the cats. the club is so far from its most recent highs its not funny.

 

[arupist]

And as for the pus-cats, they should slide from those recent highs with a little more grace than they are currently displaying.

 

[Saint]

Supportive environment will be available to those players who are OURS and no support for players who are not. It is a simple case of tribalism. Thankfully we are not all campaigning social justice warriors.

Although comments from crowd suggesting Clark might neck himself did go too far.

I was more thinking about the future when many of these ex-players suffer the come-down from being a footballer on top of the world to another average Joe.

Mental illness is a massive problem for ex-sportsmen of all types, manifesting itself in drug, alcohol and gambling problems. Stigmatising mental illness now may affect players further down the track.

To say we will support or own in the future if they put their hand up does no good if you're harming them now.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I was more thinking about the future when many of these ex-players suffer the come-down from being a footballer on top of the world to another average Joe.

Mental illness is a massive problem for ex-sportsmen of all types, manifesting itself in drug, alcohol and gambling problems. Stigmatising mental illness now may affect players further down the track.

To say we will support or own in the future if they put their hand up does no good if you're harming them now.

We are harming the ones who aren't playing for us, and not harming those who are ours. Sledging does not equal stigmatising, it is an exploitative method to gain an edge in the game.

 

[threesixpio]

I was more thinking about the future when many of these ex-players suffer the come-down from being a footballer on top of the world to another average Joe.

Mental illness is a massive problem for ex-sportsmen of all types, manifesting itself in drug, alcohol and gambling problems. Stigmatising mental illness now may affect players further down the track.

To say we will support or own in the future if they put their hand up does no good if you're harming them now.

Maybe it needs a worksafe investigation .....

 

[The Jet From Poowong]

A lot of sour grapes. Until such time as the the Club is advised of a concern people should keep their mouth shut. That includes you Joel, despite your patsies in the media.

 

[Saint]

Maybe it needs a worksafe investigation .....

In 5 years' time this type of thing will probably be a feature in workplace OH&S.

 

[cryptor]

As someone who has battled with depression for years and without knowing what was said (if anything) I can't say I'm offended by all this in the context of sledging in an AFL match. It's a different world when you step over that white line and the accepted social constructs we live by no longer apply until the final siren blows. Players know this. As it's already been stated, Mitch knew to expect this and was expecting it. If you go out onto the field then you are fit enough to be tested - physically and mentally. If he didn't think he could take it then he shouldn't have played. Sames goes for any player coming back from a physical injury like Ablett having his shoulder tested last week, and probably again this week.

And just for me personally, I'd hate to find that my opponents held back on sledges against me because everyone thought I wouldn't be able to handle them and I'd need to be protected. That's the stigma of depression that I find most offensive; that you must be mentally weak and you can't take any crap because you have it.

 

[threesixpio]

In 5 years' time this type of thing will probably be a feature in workplace OH&S.

Don't think you got my reference there matey

 

[threesixpio]

As someone who has battled with depression for years and without knowing what was said (if anything) I can't say I'm offended by all this in the context of sledging in an AFL match. It's a different world when you step over that white line and the accepted social constructs we live by no longer apply until the final siren blows. Players know this. As it's already been stated, Mitch knew to expect this and was expecting it. If you go out onto the field then you are fit enough to be tested - physically and mentally. If he didn't think he could take it then he shouldn't have played. Sames goes for any player coming back from a physical injury like Ablett having his shoulder tested last week, and probably again this week.

And just for me personally, I'd hate to find that my opponents held back on sledges against me because everyone thought I wouldn't be able to handle them and I'd need to be protected. That's the stigma of depression that I find most offensive; that you must be mentally weak and you can't take any crap because you have it.

Not holding back on sledges - just not sledging upon the basis of the illness itself is what I'm saying. Just don't think it's necessary and NOT sledging based on someone's illness isn't patronizing (surely??)

 

[PenAndPaper]

Know Mitch personally do you?

Know his state of mind when he left Melbourne?

You have a clear and concise understanding of the doctors and medications he is still on?

You understand mental illness and all it's nuances?

I doubt Frawley did either. And why should he care that much he left Melbourne to go to a better club as well. Pot kettle black anyone?

No I don't know him personally but I doubt you do either so this is all going back to my opinion v yours v frawleys...

There was also a massive difference between Frawley leaving as a free agent allowing Melb to get compensation to Clark agreeing to a pay out to retire from AFL with Melbourne and then come back 12 months later where he could have been at that club that did the right thing by him but instead choosing Geelong.

Why is depression in quotation marks and what do you mean he used it as an excuse?

I have strong opinions on depression that i have shared here previously and don't want to get into a shitfight with it again.
I'm questioning his use of depression as an excuse to get out of melbourne because he wanted to be at a more competitive team after finding out melbourne was a bit hard.He has a history of lying in the first place with his whole wanting to move home to WA then going to melb.