Hawthorn are a rabble

[Gilbert_Hodge]

Dont give me that mate. Roughead was bloody terrible. Hasnt impressed me once this year..

Franklin was easily the best of the draftees, chased, had great disposal, set up goals and tried to make things happen. Good stuff buddy..

What are you smoking? IMO Lewis is clearly the best draftee. He runs, goes in hard, gets the disposals and sets up goals, and, like today, kicked a goal. Roughead has shown some promise, but needs to take a step up soon.

Not taking anything away from Franklin, he is taleneted, but Lewis owns him.

 

[Skyfire15]

Buddy played up the ground for most of the game, and he chased better than any of the other forwards today. I think you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick on that one.

I'll go out on a limb here and say the most dissaoppointing chaser in our forward line is our main goalkicker, yes Willo, with a couple of exceptions today his chasing and general second efforts in the forward half are bordering on pathetic, i'm not just talking about today, I've been thinking it for a fair few weeks now, if he doesn't get the mark he doesn't get the ball.
Intensity? none.

Granted Buddy did well up the field today when he was up there, but this is not just from todays game, when I went to the Syd and WB games he was particuarly bad.

Agreed on Willo! I'd love to know who the forward coach is, cos it is something that sticks out to me every week and just doesn't improve. You watch Adel, Coll & Syd forwards go at it and their intensity is incredible.

 

[Roughie]

Granted Buddy did well up the field today when he was up there, but this is not just from todays game, when I went to the Syd and WB games he was particuarly bad.

Agreed on Willo! I'd love to know who the forward coach is, cos it is something that sticks out to me every week and just doesn't improve. You watch Adel, Coll & Syd forwards go at it and their intensity is incredible.

^Agreeing about Willow, How about in the last quarter when he was playing off a forward flank or a wing, couldnt really pick the position he was lining up at. But when he did get the ball up field and ran with it and burned off his opponents, he has incredible pace. Now imagine if he actually used in chasing players down, Davey is a prime example of some one who runs his opponents down many times and I think our forwards all need to start putting some pressure on.

 

[Gary Shadforth]

We have a young inexperience side in at the moment and were beaten by a side still holding 60-70% of a Grand Final team from only 2 years ago, ...

And in that time Port have remained hard to be beaten by any visitors at their home ground. In saying that, it is no excuse for the thrashing we received today.

 

[Nightwolf]

What are you smoking? IMO Lewis is clearly the best draftee. He runs, goes in hard, gets the disposals and sets up goals, and, like today, kicked a goal. Roughead has shown some promise, but needs to take a step up soon.

Not taking anything away from Franklin, he is taleneted, but Lewis owns him.

Ok first of all, i was talking about the game.

Second of all, Lewis is terribly overrated by Hawthorn supporters...

 

[vanders]

Gutted

 

[Rich01]

^dont get me wrong, Franklin did play well, I posted that post at the end of the third quarter and I wasnt going to jump on Franklin to quickly. Franklin actually did chase which was good cos he is probally the most laziest player on our team. But lets be honest, he was playing on Lonie. But yes he did play well.........

A couple of questions... I watched the game on and off at the pub with the sound down so I didn't take much notice.

You say Franklin played on Lonie? Lonie was given votes by the commentators. I didn't notice Lonie having much of an impact although I noticed Franklin out there.

McGlynn. How did he go? Worth a midfield position in my dreamteam?

Injuries next week against the Tiges? Noticed Everitt on the bench. What's wrong with him? Mitchell, is he match fit? Will Crawford and/or Croad be back?

Thanks in advance.

 

[burner1]

Observations from todays match and the season:

PACE
One major thing that stood out for me today is that we are VERY VERY SLOW all over the park. Think we were (sometimes) trying to play accountable football but our players especially mids just couldnt keep up ,leaving port with heaps of free man streaming through the backline/middle and into the fwd line. When are players tried to push fwd they would just clog up the fwd line as their man would be right behind them, port would win the ball stream out of the backline and our players couldnt keep up. Almost every matchup on the ground port had a faster player than us. Is a said fact about the state of our list that we’re generally slow, weak and unskilled.

MIDFIELD
If our midfield isnt winning the contested ball they are about as useful as a flyscreen on a submarine. As touched on above, in open play we get killed. Players like Lewis seem to be doing alright and getting a few kicks but thats becuase his man is nowhere near him doing a lot more damage (i think it was pearce from looking at tv). Our mids generally cant keep up making them unaccountable.
The ones with a bit of pace generally cant kick. Bateman absoultuely butchered the ball by foot and hand and alhough got some touches playin v loose gave us no drive or most often made things worse with a terrible kick up fwd or a poor handball to put a player under pressure. We are crying out for players like ellis, muston, birchall to come on who have some pace and skill.

Skills/footy smarts
Our skills are very poor and we are terrible in running to position or creating space. Our player do nothing off the ball and just stand still and clog up space waving their arms in the air saying kick it to me. Looking at the Port kickins all the players would start in a line up the middle of the ground and then time their leads into space. We for some reason cant seem to manage this simple concept.
Also we for some reason havent worked out theirs a new kickin rule and take ages to kick it in and by the time we do we;re all manned up. Not sure why this is. When other teams kick it in it acts as a fast break and the ball is in the fwd line in a flash. We take ages to kick it in and are stagnant and get no drive. We need a lot of work on the kickout strategy.

Experience
Our senoir players today did not much but we hardly had any on the park. As the most expereinced hawks on the park Everitt, dixon, smith should have done more. (barker gets off as it was his first game in yonks and one most contests he was in). The six players we were missing today were all senior or experienced players and may have helped stopped the rot. Again we lack experience and quality all over the park. Port broke a heap of tackles today and one soo many contests by just brushing our players aside. A lot of our players lack presence or strength in the contest. Port is a very experienced and match hardened team and it showed today, as it did against sydney and brisbane.

Depth
We have none. Players like thurgood, ries, kane, brennan, ladson shouldnt be all getting a game at afl level. We lack strong bodies (missed so many broken tackles), have poor skills and lack pace. Our list still needs a lot of work. Before everyone says sack the coach, i remember in the last few weeks of the dismal 2004, schwab coming out one week saying 'we need players with strong bodies' then two weeks later after another loss saying 'we need players with footskills'. In 2004, our club thought it was in line for a premiership in 2004 yet came 2nd last. Our recruiting and list turnover during early 2000’s reflected that view.
While teams like port and brisbane are in decline after taking a short term view for a few years they have the senoir players to keep them more than competitive and can build around them. Our club in 2004 thought it had these players. We didnt then and we dont now. We lack quailty and depth. We comparing our senoir core to the likes of port and brisbane it is laughable yet our club thought in the 2000's we were a shot at the flag (which may have been a missed opportunity under scwhab as our team was okay but don’t think we were ever real premiership material)
Now the previous short team decisons and unrealistic expecatations are coming home to roost as the gamble for a flag under scwab didnt come off and left us in a sorry state.
It will take time before we have a decent senior core. Their are still far too players on our list who wouldnt get a game for other clubs. The only players we have left to play are untried youngsters in murphy, little, bailey, birchall etc. There is still pain to come as these guys pick up the slack.

What everything forgets is that drafting is relative. We may have picked up some good players but so does every other team in the comp. In hindsight our draft picks werent fantastic in 2004 under buckanera which is why i think ac got pelchin in. In a team lacking pace we drafted lewis as a slow inside mid and little as a project small full forward. These picks may turn around but we need everyone to be spot on when our list is this bad.

Our best 30 players is not drastically different than under scwab,nor can it really be in 18 months. Yes we have lost some dead wood, and traded, but there are still a majority of players who were recruited under scwab are really not that good. Of the team today only roughie, franklin, lewis, taylor, mcglnn and thurgood were not available under scwab and really only the first two had any impact. Drafting in new players and turning over a bad list takes time. Quick fixes like under pagan at carlton have proven not to work if the core of good players is not their already. They say you cant polish a turrd and irrespective of what you think of AC I think this is true of a number of players on our list.

The major concern for me at the moment is that our team lacks commitment, endevour and confidence. Is it just a lack of skill, pace etc that makes it seem so bad? At the moment something is clearly lacking in our endevour, too many poor chases, missed tackles etc. When players cant keep up with their men, miss targets it all looks very poor. No team looks good when beaten by 90+ points. Players dont seem to working for each other putting more pressure onto the ball carrier. We really need to turn this around and play with some confidence, take risk etc.

Some positives

Sewell - probably the only player who beat has man consistently in the back 6
Clarke - thought he tried hard and was dangerous when he had the ball setting up a few goals. We cant carry heaps of small bodied players each week but clarke is one that we definitely should.
Franklin - thought keept head up, trying to create and looked dangerous when he had the ball. Showing improvement.
Roughie - did nothing in the first half but thought looked heaps better at chb and seemed to continually run forward and create and make good decisions. Is hard to know if hes a fwd or not as no hawthorn fwd really had a chance with the way we are playing.
Brown - was getting beaten for most of the first half but kept putting in and u could see he was really hurting. Same for hodge just kept putting in.
Barker- got through the game and moved alright. should be better for the run.
Campbell while beaten by tredrea on the lead not really his fault as the delivery was good. Thought did really well in the one on ones and looked very mobile when he went into the ruck.
Mcglynn. – thought tried hard and showed a bit.

The negatives
Batemans disposal is atrocious. Cant have him playin as a loose wingman if he keeps turning it over.
Everitt - did nothing and poor body language.
Midfield and rucks - got smashed in the clearences.
Brennan is not a backman. When has to worry about a man gets outbodied too easily and doesn’t read the flight as well as he does when he is solely focued on the ball. One positive was that I thought his skills look to have improved.
Ladson, thurgood - not up to it. Thurgood can just not stick a tackle.
Other points listed above.

The future
We don’t really have much to lose for the rest of the season. Players like Murphy, little, birchall, young really need to get a run and see if their up to it. There’s not many other players who can be tried out as ellis and muston wont be til next year and bailey and dowler wont be til later in the season. Im not sure who we put in the midfield to add pace or in the backline to provide drive. Maybe smith in the midfield? But then we lose our most experienced backman. THe cupboard is pretty bare. Hopefully croad is back soon. We realy need the injection of quailty that ellis, dowler and muston will provide but it will take time before they have an impact.

Possible team next week
Sewell Campbell Murphy
Smith Roughead Brown
Birchall Mitchell Young
Franklin Dixon Clarke
Willo Barker Mcgylnn
Everitt Hodge Lewis

We were very poor today and ive probably been too harsh on a few and not enougb on others. We were beaten by a more talented, experienced and match hardened team but the size of the loss and lack of fight in the first half was disgraceful. Despite the negativivty of this post i still think we are a chance against richmond but we are a long way off from being a quaility team week in week out as port showed today.

 

[Philhawk]

Observations from todays match and the season:

PACE
One major thing that stood out for me today is that we are VERY VERY SLOW all over the park. Think we were (sometimes) trying to play accountable football but our players especially mids just couldnt keep up ,leaving port with heaps of free man streaming through the backline/middle and into the fwd line. When are players tried to push fwd they would just clog up the fwd line as their man would be right behind them, port would win the ball stream out of the backline and our players couldnt keep up. Almost every matchup on the ground port had a faster player than us. Is a said fact about the state of our list that we’re generally slow, weak and unskilled.

MIDFIELD
If our midfield isnt winning the contested ball they are about as useful as a flyscreen on a submarine. As touched on above, in open play we get killed. Players like Lewis seem to be doing alright and getting a few kicks but thats becuase his man is nowhere near him doing a lot more damage (i think it was pearce from looking at tv). Our mids generally cant keep up making them unaccountable.
The ones with a bit of pace generally cant kick. Bateman absoultuely butchered the ball by foot and hand and alhough got some touches playin v loose gave us no drive or most often made things worse with a terrible kick up fwd or a poor handball to put a player under pressure. We are crying out for players like ellis, muston, birchall to come on who have some pace and skill.

Skills/footy smarts
Our skills are very poor and we are terrible in running to position or creating space. Our player do nothing off the ball and just stand still and clog up space waving their arms in the air saying kick it to me. Looking at the Port kickins all the players would start in a line up the middle of the ground and then time their leads into space. We for some reason cant seem to manage this simple concept.
Also we for some reason havent worked out theirs a new kickin rule and take ages to kick it in and by the time we do we;re all manned up. Not sure why this is. When other teams kick it in it acts as a fast break and the ball is in the fwd line in a flash. We take ages to kick it in and are stagnant and get no drive. We need a lot of work on the kickout strategy.

Experience
Our senoir players today did not much but we hardly had any on the park. As the most expereinced hawks on the park Everitt, dixon, smith should have done more. (barker gets off as it was his first game in yonks and one most contests he was in). The six players we were missing today were all senior or experienced players and may have helped stopped the rot. Again we lack experience and quality all over the park. Port broke a heap of tackles today and one soo many contests by just brushing our players aside. A lot of our players lack presence or strength in the contest. Port is a very experienced and match hardened team and it showed today, as it did against sydney and brisbane.

Depth
We have none. Players like thurgood, ries, kane, brennan, ladson shouldnt be all getting a game at afl level. We lack strong bodies (missed so many broken tackles), have poor skills and lack pace. Our list still needs a lot of work. Before everyone says sack the coach, i remember in the last few weeks of the dismal 2004, schwab coming out one week saying 'we need players with strong bodies' then two weeks later after another loss saying 'we need players with footskills'. In 2004, our club thought it was in line for a premiership in 2004 yet came 2nd last. Our recruiting and list turnover during early 2000’s reflected that view.
While teams like port and brisbane are in decline after taking a short term view for a few years they have the senoir players to keep them more than competitive and can build around them. Our club in 2004 thought it had these players. We didnt then and we dont now. We lack quailty and depth. We comparing our senoir core to the likes of port and brisbane it is laughable yet our club thought in the 2000's we were a shot at the flag (which may have been a missed opportunity under scwhab as our team was okay but don’t think we were ever real premiership material)
Now the previous short team decisons and unrealistic expecatations are coming home to roost as the gamble for a flag under scwab didnt come off and left us in a sorry state.
It will take time before we have a decent senior core. Their are still far too players on our list who wouldnt get a game for other clubs. The only players we have left to play are untried youngsters in murphy, little, bailey, birchall etc. There is still pain to come as these guys pick up the slack.

What everything forgets is that drafting is relative. We may have picked up some good players but so does every other team in the comp. In hindsight our draft picks werent fantastic in 2004 under buckanera which is why i think ac got pelchin in. In a team lacking pace we drafted lewis as a slow inside mid and little as a project small full forward. These picks may turn around but we need everyone to be spot on when our list is this bad.

Our best 30 players is not drastically different than under scwab,nor can it really be in 18 months. Yes we have lost some dead wood, and traded, but there are still a majority of players who were recruited under scwab are really not that good. Of the team today only roughie, franklin, lewis, taylor, mcglnn and thurgood were not available under scwab and really only the first two had any impact. Drafting in new players and turning over a bad list takes time. Quick fixes like under pagan at carlton have proven not to work if the core of good players is not their already. They say you cant polish a turrd and irrespective of what you think of AC I think this is true of a number of players on our list.

The major concern for me at the moment is that our team lacks commitment, endevour and confidence. Is it just a lack of skill, pace etc that makes it seem so bad? At the moment something is clearly lacking in our endevour, too many poor chases, missed tackles etc. When players cant keep up with their men, miss targets it all looks very poor. No team looks good when beaten by 90+ points. Players dont seem to working for each other putting more pressure onto the ball carrier. We really need to turn this around and play with some confidence, take risk etc.

Some positives

Sewell - probably the only player who beat has man consistently in the back 6
Clarke - thought he tried hard and was dangerous when he had the ball setting up a few goals. We cant carry heaps of small bodied players each week but clarke is one that we definitely should.
Franklin - thought keept head up, trying to create and looked dangerous when he had the ball. Showing improvement.
Roughie - did nothing in the first half but thought looked heaps better at chb and seemed to continually run forward and create and make good decisions. Is hard to know if hes a fwd or not as no hawthorn fwd really had a chance with the way we are playing.
Brown - was getting beaten for most of the first half but kept putting in and u could see he was really hurting. Same for hodge just kept putting in.
Barker- got through the game and moved alright. should be better for the run.
Campbell while beaten by tredrea on the lead not really his fault as the delivery was good. Thought did really well in the one on ones and looked very mobile when he went into the ruck.
Mcglynn. – thought tried hard and showed a bit.

The negatives
Batemans disposal is atrocious. Cant have him playin as a loose wingman if he keeps turning it over.
Everitt - did nothing and poor body language.
Midfield and rucks - got smashed in the clearences.
Brennan is not a backman. When has to worry about a man gets outbodied too easily and doesn’t read the flight as well as he does when he is solely focued on the ball. One positive was that I thought his skills look to have improved.
Ladson, thurgood - not up to it. Thurgood can just not stick a tackle.
Other points listed above.

The future
We don’t really have much to lose for the rest of the season. Players like Murphy, little, birchall, young really need to get a run and see if their up to it. There’s not many other players who can be tried out as ellis and muston wont be til next year and bailey and dowler wont be til later in the season. Im not sure who we put in the midfield to add pace or in the backline to provide drive. Maybe smith in the midfield? But then we lose our most experienced backman. THe cupboard is pretty bare. Hopefully croad is back soon. We realy need the injection of quailty that ellis, dowler and muston will provide but it will take time before they have an impact.

Possible team next week
Sewell Campbell Murphy
Smith Roughead Brown
Birchall Mitchell Young
Franklin Dixon Clarke
Willo Barker Mcgylnn
Everitt Hodge Lewis

We were very poor today and ive probably been too harsh on a few and not enougb on others. We were beaten by a more talented, experienced and match hardened team but the size of the loss and lack of fight in the first half was disgraceful. Despite the negativivty of this post i still think we are a chance against richmond but we are a long way off from being a quaility team week in week out as port showed today.

Great post mate.

burner1 for Hawthorn coach.

 

[Roughie]

A couple of questions... I watched the game on and off at the pub with the sound down so I didn't take much notice.

You say Franklin played on Lonie? Lonie was given votes by the commentators. I didn't notice Lonie having much of an impact although I noticed Franklin out there.

McGlynn. How did he go? Worth a midfield position in my dreamteam?

Injuries next week against the Tiges? Noticed Everitt on the bench. What's wrong with him? Mitchell, is he match fit? Will Crawford and/or Croad be back?

Thanks in advance.

IMO, there were many players on Ports team who played better then lonie.

McGlynn played really good in the 2nd half, he really found alot more of the ball when he couldnt get a sniff in the 1st half. Personally maybe you should trade of a bench player for McGlynn, but I dont think his worth a starting job in your dream team as of yet.

Everitt supposedly just had a bruised knee he should be back. I think Mitchell only problem was getting winded at half time, Kane Cornes did a great job on shutting him down. Crawford and Croad are expected to be back, but its still not definant.

 

[Honest John]

Yes it`s pace we need .Lewis does get a lot of the ball and don`t turn it over but usually only kicks it 30 metres. His job should be to run 10 flatout & kick it 50.When hodge gets it near the middle it usually goes deep into attack 50 or 60. When teams or players are down on form they look forward to playing hawthorn. Once the game is over they look a million dollars.

 

[Jumbo]

We have a young inexperience side in at the moment and were beaten by a side still holding 60-70% of a Grand Final team from only 2 years ago,

Ten of the players out there today didn't play in the 2004 GF

 

[The Kipster]

One last point re-Joel Smith his disposal is also crap - he kicks it up in the air 20M and sets up our blokles everytime....when he doesn't do that he turns it over......kicks it out on the full.......too indecisive.......like a lot of others in the team he thinks too much of himself and his supposed talent....I hope one day they realise that there is more to playing footy than turning up on the day and collecting your pay every month......What about the supporters who put in via memberships every year, if this was a normal business these employee's would get warnings and sacked.....

 

[illnino]

Ten of the players out there today didn't play in the 2004 GF

Troll Alert! Troll Alert!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

10 out of 22 didn't play in the grand final. 12 did. And how many players did we have with finals experience or more than 100 games experience?
4?

 

[Hawk Dork]

if this was a normal business these employee's would get warnings and sacked.....

If they signed Howards new work place agreement you wouldnt even need to warn them

 

[hyperswivel]

On the topic of Alistair Clarkson;

How many times have you heard a Hawthorn player say "Clarko is one of the guys" or something to that effect.
Well, do we want a coach that the players like, or do we want a coach that the players respect?
I'm not suggesting we get a real jerk like Gary Ayers to come in and do the job... but any every workplace management need to have some sort of seperation from their workers and football is no different.
If we want "one of the guys" to coach, then we'd have a playing coach... Don't we want someone who, when his players are losing by 6 goals at half time, will go down and give the playing group what for?
I guess it boils down to the question, is Clarkson too soft?
It's fine to say that he needs time to achieve his plan... but what if we give him that time and the plan is not achieved? What if our young guns get jack of it and move on? What if all of this invesment is wasted in three years?
Clarkson is a heck of a recruiter... but I'm not sure he's cut out for coaching.

 

[Bojangles17]

On the topic of Alistair Clarkson;

What if all of this invesment is wasted in three years?
Clarkson is a heck of a recruiter... but I'm not sure he's cut out for coaching.

I was suprised to say the least when Hawthorn opted for a rookie coach to drag them from the abyss the team had recently slipped to. In any given situation when things are crook one generally looks to experience to be the guiding light. They've done it before, have strength in their plan cause it works et al.

Why on earth would you run the gauntlet by putting a rookie up to the job, seems to me that someone at Glenferrie seriously underestimated the task at hand

 

[hyperswivel]

Bojangles... thanks for your contribution.
I think at the time that the coaching decision was made, Clarkson may have been the lesser of two evils... and I'm still not sure who would replace him.
He's made a lot of stupid and stubborn tactical decisions over the last month or so and if he's too pig-headed or unskilled to change his style, then what's the point of keeping him on?

 

[tdh1]

I disagree Roughie. I thought was not bad, especially after the last few weeks he has had. What i cant understand is how thurgod got a game in the last two weeks, firstly ahead of brennan and boyle, especially when he has barely played at box hill and certainly hasnt played well there, and as soon as he is ready straight into the senior team. i dont get it.

 

[Gary Shadforth]

One last point re-Joel Smith his disposal is also crap - he kicks it up in the air 20M and sets up our blokles everytime....when he doesn't do that he turns it over......kicks it out on the full.......too indecisive.......like a lot of others in the team he thinks too much of himself and his supposed talent....I hope one day they realise that there is more to playing footy than turning up on the day and collecting your pay every month......What about the supporters who put in via memberships every year, if this was a normal business these employee's would get warnings and sacked.....

I was having a look at expressions on the faces of some of our players as the embarrassment went on and on throughout the game and came to the same conclusion in what you have said here, Kipster - "I hope one day they realise that there is more to playing footy than turning up on the day and collecting your pay every month ....".

 

[Bojangles17]

Bojangles... thanks for your contribution.
I think at the time that the coaching decision was made, Clarkson may have been the lesser of two evils... and I'm still not sure who would replace him.
He's made a lot of stupid and stubborn tactical decisions over the last month or so and if he's too pig-headed or unskilled to change his style, then what's the point of keeping him on?

I tend to think that Hawthorn had a longer term vision in mind with matthews in the picture, although i think it will be alot like the tigers chase on sheedy over the years that only ever pushed up the value of sheeds contracts at windy hill.

On eade, i dont think he was ever a consideration. I used to work with some coterie members of Hawthorn and they often remarked of rockets wild days at glenferrie to a point that he would never be seriously regarded as a coach.

Good luck with it all, my guess is this sunday will go down to the wire in keeping with most tigers/hawks games of recent years

 

[RustyHawk]

Great post Burner1, good read for someone like me who hasnt and probably doesnt want to see the game.

I would think that our backline of

Ozzie, Jacobs and Guerra plus maybe Croady playing down back would have helped... quite a lot in fact.

Plus Shane and Vanders hard at it on the ball meant we might have been able to build on our early couple of goals? Who knows?

But we do know that we picked Brennan who is 1cm smaller than Jordan Lewis & a couple of kgs lighter as a 3rd tall. A guy who can mark but cant kick the ball when after he's marked it.. and we wonder why we lost?