NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[beatnik]

you lot are embarrassing Chief, Gralin. Hope you've got plenty of egg recipes

Better to risk a bit of egg on your face than to be covered in the grubby stuff you’ve been rolling around in on this topic…

 

[Big Papa Ted]

She doesn’t have both sides, she only has Clarkson’s side. She may have read the article but I don’t believe she has spoken directly to the players involved. It’s much easier to dismiss words on a page, maybe if she spoke to Ian, she’d become more confident in his version of events.

To be fair, isn't that exactly what's happening in this thread but from the other side?

 

[beatnik]

Settle down. It was a direct response to someone writing that she can’t have both sides of the story because she hasn’t spoken to “Ian“.

No need to be abusive.

Fair enough, my bad…am just annoyed at the level of trolling occurring on a ‘no troll’ thread

 

[Forward Press]

Sorry, but you have imputed motives to another person in a very problematic way - that their "intent is to distort and ignore and not engage in good faith". That is simply not a defensible statement, since you don't know his intent.

The invective I've displayed towards Simmo is because he has been engaging in classic trolling by missing nuance wilfully and misattributing intent deliberately. None of the other North posters have copped a ban (yet, granted) for expressing their opinion that Clarko did not do what was alleged. Simmo has been the only one to insult me personally too (not going to mention the details for obvious reasons). His intent is clear.

Anyway, I'll make this my last post on the matter, I have few issues with the other North posters in this thread.

 

[Purplrrr]

The Inquiry is basically looking at whether there was inappropriate conduct:

They're looking for:

Inappropriate intrusion
Bullying
Racial Stereotyping
Racist behaviour

I don't think there's a hope in hell that the Inquiry doesn't come up with a finding of inapprorpriate intrusion, but I think the coaches can survive that. I think the coaches careers (and probably a few other yet unnamed people) depend on whether the Inquiry also finds racial stereotyping or racist behaviour. Either of those in a finding and I think they're stuffed.

I agree, and I think an awful lot of successful work/filling in the blank/overanalysing words and scenarios has been done to support Clarkson just being a hard ass, who pushed boundaries but it wasn’t anything to do with being indigenous. That little story about his surprise aboriginal folk were ‘normal’ and could have teammates round, suggests that the intrusiveness wasn’t ‘colourblind’ like it would be so easy to believe. So probably the stereotyping scenario you’ve suggested. It’s really bothered me since I read it. It’s the more day to day racism, more banal, but so damaging, particularly when a coach starts making decisions about a players personal life.

 

[Val Keating]

Fair enough, my bad…am just annoyed at the level of trolling occurring on a ‘no troll’ thread

I don’t usually go anywhere near the main board for that reason. I was just curious about the vibe of this thread.

I was pretty surprised that the conversation was about North and not Hawthorn.

 

[Forward Press]

I don’t usually go anywhere near the main board for that reason. I was just curious about the vibe of this thread.

I was pretty surprised that the conversation was about North and not Hawthorn.

Now that the main person driving the conversation is having a day off, we can perhaps get to discussing how the investigation is proceeding instead of the credentials of the main journalist involved.

Unfortunately for Hawthorn, if there is substance to them you'd expect a level of punishment or at the least intense scrutiny for the next few years even if the key staff are no longer there.

 

[Maddo11]

I don’t usually go anywhere near the main board for that reason. I was just curious about the vibe of this thread.

I was pretty surprised that the conversation was about North and not Hawthorn.

The mods merged the Jackson twitter thread with this one and it never really recovered lol

(Not that it was the wrong thing to do)

 

[Val Keating]

Now that the main person driving the conversation is having a day off, we can perhaps get to discussing how the investigation is proceeding instead of the credentials of the main journalist involved.

Unfortunately for Hawthorn, if there is substance to them you'd expect a level of punishment or at the least intense scrutiny for the next few years even if the key staff are no longer there.

I can see them getting quite a large fine.

The personnel that were at the Hawks during that time are scattered throughout the whole competition so that’s going to be really tricky.

The problem with Russell writing the story early is that he’s created a bias amongst most people. Literally everyone I talk to about footy has already made their minds up, one way or the other, and the funny thing is that everyone seems to know someone that knows what’s going on lol.

 

[boncer34]

Now that the main person driving the conversation is having a day off, we can perhaps get to discussing how the investigation is proceeding instead of the credentials of the main journalist involved.

Unfortunately for Hawthorn, if there is substance to them you'd expect a level of punishment or at the least intense scrutiny for the next few years even if the key staff are no longer there.

Yeah I don't know how Hawthorn gets away totally unscathed if it's found that it occurred. Financial punishment maybe? Donation to a charity?

 

[Val Keating]

The mods merged the Jackson twitter thread with this one and it never really recovered lol

(Not that it was the wrong thing to do)

Has he turned his comments on yet or has he gone full Tom Browne?

 

[Forward Press]

Yeah I don't know how Hawthorn gets away totally unscathed if it's found that it occurred. Financial punishment maybe? Donation to a charity?

If the consequences at least involve for example indigenous welfare officers (or similar) not being counted as part of the soft cap, that would be a tremendous step forward. Yes, I am biased because Adam Simpson made comments to that effect as to why they avoided indigenous players that did not come from good backgrounds and he was (justifiably) pulled up on them. If Hawthorn 'get away' with something like that then we have something positive to come out of this mess.

And of course perhaps further education on the division of responsibilities - how many other workplaces could have your boss rock up at your house to give you counsel on family planning and not result in them getting disciplined? If proven true, of course...

 

[Gralin]

Yeah I don't know how Hawthorn gets away totally unscathed if it's found that it occurred. Financial punishment maybe? Donation to a charity?

You'd think something would have to happen.
Compensation to the players and their families to start with.

 

[sr36]

I agree, and I think an awful lot of successful work/filling in the blank/overanalysing words and scenarios has been done to support Clarkson just being a hard ass, who pushed boundaries but it wasn’t anything to do with being indigenous. That little story about his surprise aboriginal folk were ‘normal’ and could have teammates round, suggests that the intrusiveness wasn’t ‘colourblind’ like it would be so easy to believe. So probably the stereotyping scenario you’ve suggested. It’s really bothered me since I read it. It’s the more day to day racism, more banal, but so damaging, particularly when a coach starts making decisions about a players personal life.

One of the really thorny areas in something like this is a really blurry line between the negative concept of racial stereotyping and the positive concept of cultural understanding.

 

[Forward Press]

I can see them getting quite a large fine.

The personnel that were at the Hawks during that time are scattered throughout the whole competition so that’s going to be really tricky.

The problem with Russell writing the story early is that he’s created a bias amongst most people. Literally everyone I talk to about footy has already made their minds up, one way or the other, and the funny thing is that everyone seems to know someone that knows what’s going on lol.

The story had to be public because all evidence pointed to the AFL sweeping it under the rug indefinitely, even if Jackson was messy or rushed or whatever other criticism you want to level at him.

The biases were always present, it's not a reason to not publish the story.

 

[blackshadow]

The thing that keeps bothering me about this whole thing is Clarkson’s surprise that the home of one of his indigenous players was neat and the kids pictures were up, and flippantly commenting that his teammates probably thought he lived in a shack or something. That’s just the sort of garden variety racism that seems so very likely. The other stuff is so rough, that you feel like you have to find reasons for it, or dismiss it, but that just shows the problematic sense of err… superiority? The easy recourse to stereotypes… so yeah, maybe the assumption that an irritated indigenous father would be dangerous? Well, he likely lives in a shack. So, of course.

I feel like the mud is going to be so spread around (including on the journos and the abc etc) on this whole affair that eventually it will be thin enough that ‘the industry’ can move on. Chuck a bit of money at it. But whether you can twist scenarios around so you feel more comfortable that really the coaches were just misguidedly helping some young people… I just can’t get over that anecdote… that these interventions came from that mentality that stereotyped aboriginal people and ‘shacks’. It seems just that little bit more likely.

Re the shack comment.

Clarko grew up in a small farming community, I’m of a similar age and also grew up in a small farming community.

With that background the reference to someone’s home as a shack isn’t from a racist perspective as it’s pretty common to call a basic house a shack.

I can see how it could have been interpreted differently and seems like a poor choice of words but given Clarko’s background I’d be extremely surprised if there was anything racial in the comment at all.

 

[Osho]

Now that the main person driving the conversation is having a day off, we can perhaps get to discussing how the investigation is proceeding instead of the credentials of the main journalist involved.

Unfortunately for Hawthorn, if there is substance to them you'd expect a level of punishment or at the least intense scrutiny for the next few years even if the key staff are no longer there.

Not sure about punishment, may depend on what else is discovered. The Egan report, quite briskly noted that the club is in good condition now regarding treatment of Aboriginals, and if that is indeed the case and the lesson has been learnt, the focus should be on compensation and support for victims, and ensuring processes remain in place and are improved. This way, other clubs will be motivated to get on the front foot.

 

[Gralin]

Yet there was zero comment from Russell about it. Nothing. Because he’s got a golliwog collection he gets a pass? Wtf is that?

Sonja made a statement and Russell jumped straight on it. Considering Sonja’s history he should have known better. He made a mistake. Makes me wonder what else he’s gotten wrong.

He commented on Eddie McGuire at the time from memory, not sure about Kennett, I know plenty of people commented on his B&F speech

He's removed a few tweets, but yeah twitter isn't the same as publishing an article and defamation laws in Australia mean stuff that is on Twitter can disappear pretty quickly regardless of accuracy as do company social media policies.

 

[Val Keating]

He commented on Eddie McGuire at the time from memory, not sure about Kennett, I know plenty of people commented on his B&F speech

He's removed a few tweets, but yeah twitter isn't the same as publishing an article and defamation laws in Australia mean stuff that is on Twitter can disappear pretty quickly regardless of accuracy as do company social media policies.

He said nothing about Kennett. That’s a fact. Not a single thing. Very odd.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

You'd think something would have to happen.
Compensation to the players and their families to start with.

I was under the impression the club had already offered the players both financial compensation and an apology as per the recommendation in Egan's report.

Hawthorn lawyers extend mediation offer to families amidst racism investigation

The Bungil Bagora club is exploring an alternative avenue toward reconciliation.

www.zerohanger.com

 

[Gralin]

He said nothing about Kennett. That’s a fact. Not a single thing. Very odd.

Maybe by then he'd been told to STFU
I don't really care though.
The story isn't about Jackson as much as you want it to be

 

[Val Keating]

Maybe by then he'd been told to STFU
I don't really care though.
The story isn't about Jackson as much as you want it to be

Nah it’s about Hawthorn. I don’t care about Russell.

And Jeff’s comments were before Sonja’s statement.

 

[Gralin]

Nah it’s about Hawthorn. I don’t care about Russell.

And Jeff’s comments were before Sonja’s statement.

Jeff is one of the reasons I don't support the club anymore.

Amazing how it's not about Russell in multiple posts where you have talked about Russell though.

 

[Pie eyed]

Public disclosure of inappropriate and damaging treatment of vulnerable people should never be a bad thing (sunlight is the best disinfectant etc)

The damage is not from the leaks, it’s being done by the gullible types looking for ‘holes’ that they can use to undermine the victims

Nailed it.

 

[Val Keating]

Jeff is one of the reasons I don't support the club anymore.

Amazing how it's not about Russell in multiple posts where you have talked about Russell though.

Well I asked you what repercussions you expect Hawthorn to receive and you ignored it.