NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


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[Val Keating]

Yeah, that’s the point I’m getting at: how will these stories be shown to be untrue or exaggerated?

The complainants (at this stage) aren’t even taking part in the investigation. Their lawyer has been highly critical of the timeframe the AFL put on this report and mentioned the complainants are still suffering from trauma. A pre-emotive strike if I’ve ever seen one.

So this is already being set up for the findings from the report to be - if the report somehow exonerated Clarko and Fagan - called into question (at the very, very least) or completely discredited (most likely outcome).

Clarko coming out and telling “his side of the story” separately or as part of the review won’t get him off either - and in fact in the climate we live in could make things worse. “Privileged, powerful white male tells traumatized people of color that their trauma doesn’t exist”. These headlines write themselves. Any utterings from Clarko will just be used against him, it’s all about power imbalances these days and Clarko is at the right/wrong end of this one.

Jackson backtracking is the only way I could see Clarko gets out of this (you can tell North people think the same as you’ll notice they are going at him hard and hoping he’ll crack). The Sonja Hood tweet storm is seen as a victory on this front but they’ll need many more victories to make a dent into his reputation.

Jackson will just be waiting now for the report to drop. I reckon he knows he wins either way.

Report upholds his and Egan’s reports? Here comes another Walkley.

AFL Report invalidates his report and Clarko is exonerated? Here comes another slew of articles talking about trauma of victims being exacerbated by the AFL findings, let’s get people like the Project/ various shows from the ABC on board, here comes sponsors dropping, AFL have no choice but to get involved, bye bye Clarko.

Now North have (unadvisedly in my opinion) backed Clarko to the hilt instead of keeping him at arm’s length until the AFL report drops and they can monitor the fallout, their only hope to avoid the lose/lose scenario painted in the above paragraphs is Jackson backtracking. Expect the attacks to ramp up even more on him from here on in.

Sorry mate im not reading all that yet. I’ll check back later

 

[mcnulty]

Yeah, that’s the point I’m getting at: how will these stories be shown to be untrue or exaggerated?

Of this you have no idea. Yet you continue to launch into long, speculative rants about how this is all going to play out.

These stories are going to be contested- vigorously I suspect. How vigorously and how plausibly is another thing you know nothing about yet. Because we’ve only heard one side of the story.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Of this you have no idea. Yet you continue to launch into long, speculative rants about how this is all going to play out.

These stories are going to be contested- vigorously I suspect. How vigorously and how plausibly is another thing you know nothing about yet. Because we’ve only heard one side of the story.

I’m talking in real terms here on what we know. The allegations that we can read and how they can be disproving.

In practical terms, how will these allegations be shown to be untrue through an investigation that the complainants aren’t even participating in?

Clarko and Fagan can be as “vigorous” as they want in their denials, but the way this will play out in the media means the mud has already stuck and Jackson will have more mud ready to fling if things don’t go his way in the report.

Classic catch-22 situation, unless Jackson somehow cracks and flips.

 

[mcnulty]

In practical terms, how will these allegations be shown to be untrue through an investigation that the complainants aren’t even participating in?

Oh dear. If the complainants refuse to participate but the coaches do, do you really think they’re going to get the benefit of the doubt?

Maybe in the BF echo chamber, but in the real world, uh-uh.

 

[beatnik]

Have you seen young peoples houses? Have you seen young footballers‘ houses? I have and ‘tip’ would be more apt than shack for most in my experience. Nice and clean would be the definite exception. We’re really reaching here.

You’re the one reaching…I don’t understand why you’re so desperate to minimise and trivialise the impact and damage of the behaviour…

I mean, maybe Clarkson was just misunderstood or maybe he’s a filthy racist…I don’t know, and neither do you but you’re the one attacking/undermining the alleged victims in this scenario

So while it’s not yet clear what motivated Clarkson’s behaviour, I’m far more certain about what motivates yours

 

[blackshadow]

I’m talking in real terms here on what we know. The allegations that we can read and how they can be disproving.

In practical terms, how will these allegations be shown to be untrue through an investigation that the complainants aren’t even participating in?

Clarko and Fagan can be as “vigorous” as they want in their denials, but the way this will play out in the media means the mud has already stuck and Jackson will have more mud ready to fling if things don’t go his way in the report.

Classic catch-22 situation, unless Jackson somehow cracks and flips.

Unless evidence comes to light that that stands up to rigorous scrutiny I highly doubt Clarkson or Fagan will accept any findings that find them being guilty of any misconduct.

Their reputations are at stake and they will take it to court. That will include Jackson and the ABC fronting court and the accusers being brought into the public spotlight….

So far the allegations that have been made haven’t been tested at all and as both men have vigorously denied any wrongdoing I’m yet to be convinced that the allegations are what they’ve been painted to be.

 

[blackshadow]

I’m far more certain about what motivates yours

Okay spill.

 

[beatnik]

The mods merged the Jackson twitter thread with this one and it never really recovered lol

(Not that it was the wrong thing to do)

Ah, so that’s what happened…might be time to unwatch

 

[mcnulty]

So while it’s not yet clear what motivated Clarkson’s behaviour, I’m far more certain about what motivates yours

Yeah, and what’s that chuckles? Out with it. And in doing so perhaps you could provide us with a framework for your astonishingly dismal thinking.

 

[blackshadow]

Yeah, and what’s that chuckles? Out with it. And in doing so perhaps you could provide us with a framework for your astonishingly dismal thinking.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Oh dear. If the complainants refuse to participate but the coaches do, do you really think they’re going to get the benefit of the doubt?

Maybe in the BF echo chamber, but in the real world, uh-uh.

I’m talking precisely about the “real world” and how it works now and how the complainants lawyers are setting it up.

A lawyer representing one of the families alleged to have been mistreated by the club said her clients are unsure if they will participate in the investigation into the claims.

"My clients are still very traumatised and they're not in a position to make a final decision about which pathway they may take," Dr Judy Courtin told ABC Sport.

So them not participating in the investigation due to trauma is not going to help Clarko’s, Fagan or the AFL’s cause at all. On the contrary, it looks even worse. Hence the catch-22 reference as a lame-duck report like this won’t lead to an outcome where they can coach again, no way the public would be appeased once Jackson starts writing again and we hear even more from the victims.

 

[mcnulty]

Okay spill.

Imagine living your life viewing the world through a particular prism like that. It’s pitiable really.

 

[mcnulty]

So them not participating in the investigation due to trauma is not going to help Clarko’s, Fagan or the AFL’s cause at all. On the contrary, it looks even worse. Hence the catch-22 reference as a lame-duck report like this won’t lead to an outcome where they can coach again, no way the public would be appeased once Jackson starts writing again and we hear from the victims.

I strongly disagree. If people are going to make accusations under anonymity but are then are unwilling to put them under procedural scrutiny, then they lose the benefit of the doubt.

This is a concept that up until a month ago I doubt anyone would have had trouble with.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

I strongly disagree. If people are going to make anonymous accusations and are then are unwilling to put them under procedural scrutiny, then they lose the benefit of the doubt.

This is a concept that up until a month ago I doubt anyone would have had trouble with.

This isn’t a courtroom: these racism things are played out in public and through the media and social media platforms. There are no rules.

As I’ve mentioned with the recent Yorkshire cricket scandal. After an investigation into claims of racism, just 7 out of 45 claims upheld.

Those accused strongly denied the claims.

Still 16 jobs were lost, coroporate sponsors left in their droves.

That’s the “real world” now. You’re talking about a courtroom with rules, doesn’t matter what you or I think or what club we support.

 

[4cunningTonneTruck]

I’m talking precisely about the “real world” and how it works now and how the complainants lawyers are setting it up.

A lawyer representing one of the families alleged to have been mistreated by the club said her clients are unsure if they will participate in the investigation into the claims.

"My clients are still very traumatised and they're not in a position to make a final decision about which pathway they may take," Dr Judy Courtin told ABC Sport.

So them not participating in the investigation due to trauma is not going to help Clarko’s, Fagan or the AFL’s cause at all. On the contrary, it looks even worse. Hence the catch-22 reference as a lame-duck report like this won’t lead to an outcome where they can coach again, no way the public would be appeased once Jackson starts writing again and we hear even more from the victims.

I'm not sure they would be able to be removed without conclusive evidence, but who knows.

 

[blackshadow]

This isn’t a courtroom: these racism things are played out in public and through the media and social media platforms. There are no rules.

As I’ve mentioned with the recent Yorkshire cricket scandal. After an investigation into claims of racism, just 7 out of 45 claims upheld.

Those accused strongly denied the claims.

Still 16 jobs were lost, coroporate sponsors left in their droves.

That’s the “real world” now. You’re talking about a courtroom with rules, doesn’t matter what you or I think or what club we support.

You’re right in one thing the AFL review isn’t a court room.

You can bet your arse though if the allegations don’t stand up to scrutiny and adverse findings against the publicly accused individuals are made then the whole thing will end up in multiple court rooms.

 

[mcnulty]

This isn’t a courtroom: these racism things are played out in public and through the media and social media platforms. There are no rules.

As I’ve mentioned with the recent Yorkshire cricket scandal. After an investigation into claims of racism, just 7 out of 45 claims upheld.

Those accused strongly denied the claims.

Still 16 jobs were lost, coroporate sponsors left in their droves.

That’s the “real world” now. You’re talking about a courtroom with rules, doesn’t matter what you or I think or what club we support.

No, I’m talking the forum of public opinion. I know you like to bang on about this Yorkshire thing, but at least Rafiq owned it. And the dis-similarities don’t end there.

North Melbourne and the Kangaroos are backing their men in as it stands. They know a lot more than us. Hearing no backlash from sponsors or aboriginal players…yet.

You know why they’re not running for the hills? Because there’s a process that needs to take place.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Unless evidence comes to light that that stands up to rigorous scrutiny I highly doubt Clarkson or Fagan will accept any findings that find them being guilty of any misconduct.

Their reputations are at stake and they will take it to court. That will include Jackson and the ABC fronting court and the accusers being brought into the public spotlight….

So far the allegations that have been made haven’t been tested at all and as both men have vigorously denied any wrongdoing I’m yet to be convinced that the allegations are what they’ve been painted to be.

What Clarko/Fagan will do after the report drops will be interesting for sure either way.

With his personality, Clarko will be a headache with the AFL for years if things don’t turn out well for him and could definitely see court cases which will be so ugly.

But if they handle it badly the other way it trashes their whole brand and racism costs so much money for them sponsor-wise.

Ultimately you’d think they’ll follow the money, cut Clarko and Fagan loose and, like Hird, Clarko will become a stone in the AFL’s shoe for years to come.

 

[sr36]

Of this you have no idea. Yet you continue to launch into long, speculative rants about how this is all going to play out.

These stories are going to be contested- vigorously I suspect. How vigorously and how plausibly is another thing you know nothing about yet. Because we’ve only heard one side of the story.

They're looking for a range of different types of inappropriate conduct. From inappropriate intrusion through to racist behaviour. In the terms of the inquiry, the lower levels of inappropriate conduct require less proof.

I think the inquiry will be in camera and we'll likely only get the findings. If the panel find an example of inappropriate intrusion into the lives of players, the story will be an inquiry into racism at Hawthorn has found them guilty of inappropriate conduct. Regardless of whether the major claims are refuted. We won't get to hear the rebuttal, we'll likely only get the final findings - guilty of inappropriate conduct in a review into racism, with heinous stories attached and unremoved in the minds of the general public.

The cards are really stacked against them.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

No, I’m talking the forum of public opinion. I know you like to bang on about this Yorkshire thing, but at least Rafiq owned it. And the dis-similarities don’t end there.

North Melbourne and the Kangaroos are backing their men in as it stands. They know a lot more than us. Hearing no backlash from sponsors or aboriginal players…yet.

You know why they’re not running for the hills? Because there’s a process that needs to take place.

Forgive me for bringing in parallels to a recent racism scandal in another professional sport…. I should stick to speculating on Ian’s Dad and his motives right?!

Anyway, why I think the Yorkshire scandal is especially interesting is that I see similarities with how the ECB (tried) and the AFL (are trying) to handle it with their reports.

Problem is, once the report dropped, the shit really started for the ECB: even parliament got involved and told them it wasn’t good enough. Then sponsors dropped and stuff hit the fan.

Why I mention Yorkshire is to offer a counter point to the, what I find, strange narrative I’ve seen appearing these past few days of “The coaches will get off, the AFL will sweep it under the carpet”.

Looking at the way these things play out in the real world, the report dropping isn’t the end, it’s just the beginning.

 

[mcnulty]

In the terms of the inquiry, the lower levels of inappropriate conduct require less proof.

And would obviously require less sanction.

 

[mcnulty]

Forgive me for bringing in parallels to a recent racism scandal in another professional sport…. I should stick to speculating on Ian’s Dad and his motives right?!

Anyway, why I think the Yorkshire scandal is especially interesting is that I see similarities with how the ECB (tried) and the AFL (are trying) to handle it with their reports.

Problem is, once the report dropped, the s**t really started for the ECB: even parliament got involved and told them it wasn’t good enough. Then sponsors dropped and stuff hit the fan.

Why I mention Yorkshire is to offer a counter point to the, what I find, strange narrative I’ve seen appearing these past few days of “The coaches will get off, the AFL will sweep it under the carpet”.

Looking at the way these things play out in the real world, the report dropping isn’t the end, it’s just the beginning.

I think you vastly overestimate (amongst other things) the general publics attention span.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

I think you vastly overestimate (amongst other things) the general publics attention span.

On the contrary: I think the public have the attention-spans of fleas.

But when they give attention now, it has to be concentrated on issues exactly like this one. When the time comes after the report drops, they will be back on this like they were after the Jackson report dropped.

Once the sponsors start acting (racism is something most will act on) the AFL will have no control over the situation.

 

[JGreezy]

As far as I’m aware, dirty shacks with poor parenting stacks up with racist stereotypes.

A stereotype of which specific race/community?

What race do you think the person is?

 

[mcnulty]

Once the sponsors start acting (racism is something most will act on) the AFL will have no control over the situation.

They’ll definitely act on racism. As they should. So let’s see if they act.