NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


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[rye]

While I'm not as quick as other North fans to jump to the defence of Clarko, it's understandable why some feel the need to considering North will be the team that are arguably hurt the most from this.

dont really get agree with this tbh

clarkson has not developed any sort of real relationship with the nmfc club and playing group yet. if you decide to not go ahead with the hire and look for another senior coach it is very easy for north to avoid any real hurt

on the other hand the ramifications of this for hawthorn will be a potentially long term image problem and a need to thoroughly review most aspects of the club to ensure no problematic elements remain. brisbane and their playing group are in an ongoing long term relationship with fagan, with his potential departure likely to have a strong negative impact on a playing and coaching group which has developed by most accounts, very close connections to him.

out of brisbane, hawthorn and north, north are hurt the least. yet their fans seem the most vocal when it comes to caping for those involved

 

[JGreezy]

Yeah, that’s the point I’m getting at: how will these stories be shown to be untrue or exaggerated?

Records, texts, emails, testimonies of teammates, related stories... there's a lot of possibilities if you open your imagination.

I'm not saying that these things exist, but its very possible that they do. The ABC or Egan didn't investigate that.

"Ian" has publicly talked about his personal issues while he was at Hawthorn. If what he said was happening then I would be surprised if the Hawks weren't keeping records about it.

For example (complete hypothetical): If Burt sent an email on the day of the incident saying that "Ian" came in, broke down, said that he doesn't want a baby but he's scared of his partners father. And the email shows Clarkson not in the room.

If that existed it would completely change the situation (to be clear, Im not saying that this exists or that this is what happened).

 

[JackOutback]

I think you vastly overestimate (amongst other things) the general publics attention span.

Maybe he’s just underestimating the ability of the average Australian to bury their head in the sand and pretend racism doesn’t exist because it hurts their feelings to have to consider the actual reality of the situation.

I was reading a social media thread about the bashing death of Cassius Turvey and the similarities between the arguments here and there were striking. ‘Maybe it’s not racist, maybe he’s just shit to everybody’, ‘why did it only happen to someone indigenous and not white folk, maybe they’re to blame a bit’.

The ability of the average Australian to remain wilfully blind to racism is strong.

 

[JackOutback]

dont really get agree with this tbh

clarkson has not developed any sort of real relationship with the nmfc club and playing group yet. if you decide to not go ahead with the hire and look for another senior coach it is very easy for north to avoid any real hurt

on the other hand the ramifications of this for hawthorn will be a potentially long term image problem and a need to thoroughly review most aspects of the club to ensure no problematic elements remain. brisbane and their playing group are in an ongoing long term relationship with fagan, with his potential departure likely to have a strong negative impact on a playing and coaching group which has developed by most accounts, very close connections to him.

out of brisbane, hawthorn and north, north are hurt the least. yet their fans seem the most vocal when it comes to caping for those involved

Problem is, North have already invested in Clarkson as the messiah to guide them out of the footballing wilderness. He may not have started yet, but some North fans have put their last remaining chips on him and can’t countenance any other alternative.

 

[mcnulty]

Maybe he’s just underestimating the ability of the average Australian to bury their head in the sand and pretend racism doesn’t exist because it hurts their feelings to have to consider the actual reality of the situation.

I was reading a social media thread about the bashing death of Cassius Turvey and the similarities between the arguments here and there were striking. ‘Maybe it’s not racist, maybe he’s just s**t to everybody’, ‘why did it only happen to someone indigenous and not white folk, maybe they’re to blame a bit’.

The ability of the average Australian to remain wilfully blind to racism is strong.

No reasonable person doubts racism exists here. But by the same token no reasonable person should condemn these coaches as racist until we’ve heard both sides of the story. I really don’t think that’s too much to ask.

 

[Seadog]

Records, texts, emails, testimonies of teammates, related stories... there's a lot of possibilities if you open your imagination.

I'm not saying that these things exist, but its very possible that they do. The ABC or Egan didn't investigate that.

"Ian" has publicly talked about his personal issues while he was at Hawthorn. If what he said was happening then I would be surprised if the Hawks weren't keeping records about it.

For example (complete hypothetical): If Burt sent an email on the day of the incident saying that "Ian" came in, broke down, said that he doesn't want a baby but he's scared of his partners father. And the email shows Clarkson not in the room.

If that existed it would completely change the situation (to be clear, Im not saying that this exists or that this is what happened).

No offence and I haven't read back for context but that is pure nonsense. Throwing out red herrings while avoiding responsibility for making them is pretty poor.
I've no doubt Clarkson thinks he did nothing wrong, the vast majority of racists can't see their racism. He probably thinks he was being a straight up guy helping the young blokes, completely oblivious to the devestation he was causing.

 

[Gralin]

No reasonable person doubts racism exists here. But by the same token no reasonable person should condemn these coaches as racist until we’ve heard both sides of the story. I really don’t think that’s too much to ask.

It's amazing how everyone knows it exists but they never find an actual example of
They wait for the white guy accused of racism to agree with all the other white people who have been saying its not racist don't jump to conclusions wait for the other side to speak.

Then they say see we told you it's not racist, pat each on the back and go on about their lives.

 

[sr36]

And would obviously require less sanction.

In terms of an AFL sanction, I agree. But in terms of public opinion, media and sponsors, it will still be guilty of inappropriate conduct in an inquiry into racism - an inquiry into some pretty explosive claims. I don't see long careers for anyone that sticks to.

 

[JGreezy]

No offence and I haven't read back for context but that is pure nonsense. Throwing out red herrings while avoiding responsibility for making them is pretty poor.
I've no doubt Clarkson thinks he did nothing wrong, the vast majority of racists can't see their racism. He probably thinks he was being a straight up guy helping the young blokes, completely oblivious to the devestation he was causing.

I was responding to a lengthy comment that said that they couldn't see how the stories could be disproven.

I gave an example and made it very clear that it was an hypothetical to answer the question. The ABC journalist and the Egan report didn't investigate whether there were any records at Hawthorn or in the accused private records.

It is very possible that there are records that contradict the claims and it isn't just he said/she said.

 

[mcnulty]

It's amazing how everyone knows it exists but they never find an actual example of

There are plenty of examples, even if you want to look within the AFL. Another one of your staggeringly stupid posts.

 

[Gralin]

There are plenty of examples, even if you want to look within the AFL. Another one of your staggeringly stupid posts.

Plenty of examples in the AFL of players/ past players speaking up about racism within the league and their club and everyone believing them?

 

[mcnulty]

Plenty of examples in the AFL of players/ past players speaking up about racism within the league and their club and everyone believing them?

And ”everyone believe them”. What conditions would you apply that to? You really are an extraordinarily bad faith poster. How the hell are you a mod?

 

[Gralin]

And ”everyone believe them”. What conditions would you apply that to? You really are an extraordinarily bad faith poster. How the hell are you a mod?

So you've got no examples then? I thought you had plenty of examples in the AFL alone.
But no, just insults

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Records, texts, emails, testimonies of teammates, related stories... there's a lot of possibilities if you open your imagination.

I'm not saying that these things exist, but its very possible that they do. The ABC or Egan didn't investigate that.

"Ian" has publicly talked about his personal issues while he was at Hawthorn. If what he said was happening then I would be surprised if the Hawks weren't keeping records about it.

For example (complete hypothetical): If Burt sent an email on the day of the incident saying that "Ian" came in, broke down, said that he doesn't want a baby but he's scared of his partners father. And the email shows Clarkson not in the room.

If that existed it would completely change the situation (to be clear, Im not saying that this exists or that this is what happened).

Thanks for the reply mate.

Texts, records, yeah I guess a raft of new evidence could come out.

Would the texts and records exonerate them though and show up all the complainants and the assistant coach?

Remember, it’s not a court case, their word will be enough as there is enough of them and another assistant to back them up.

Geez, if there’s new evidence that comes out, that would be some turnaround, Jackson and Egan would be disgraced.

 

[mcnulty]

So you've got no examples then? I thought you had plenty of examples in the AFL alone.
But no, just insults

Goodes, Betts, Winmar….but you don’t follow football, right? So what would you know. Your best defence as far as I can tell…stick with it.

 

[Gralin]

Goodes, Betts, Winmar….but you don’t follow football, right? So what would you know. Your best defence as far as I can tell…stick with it.

Goodes got booed out of the game by people saying they weren't being racist.

Lumumba wasn't believed about Collingwood.

Wilkinson about the suns and the AFL

Shit people still don't believe Cyril and you don't believe the latest accusations.

 

[JGreezy]

Thanks for the reply mate.

Texts, records, yeah I guess a raft of new evidence could come out.

Would the texts and records exonerate them though and show up all the complainants and the assistant coach?

Remember, it’s not a court case, their word will be enough as there is enough of them and another assistant to back them up.

Geez, if there’s new evidence that comes out, that would be some turnaround, Jackson and Egan would be disgraced.

I don't know that Egan would be disgraced. It wasn't his job to investigate it. He was just there to compile claims and stories. From what I understand, it was supposed to then go to Hawthorn and the AFL and they were supposed to do the investigation.

 

[mcnulty]

Goodes got booed out of the game by people saying they weren't being racist.

Lumumba wasn't believed about Collingwood.

Wilkinson about the suns and the AFL

s**t people still don't believe Cyril and you don't believe the latest accusations.

Your condition was about “everyone believing them”. Now that’s never going to happen. You get that, yeah?

 

[NarklesHelmet]

I don't know that Egan would be disgraced. It wasn't his job to investigate it. He was just there to compile claims and stories. From what I understand, it was supposed to then go to Hawthorn and the AFL and they were supposed to do the investigation.

You’d have to think though for Egan, if he was in charge of a report where a raft of people, their families and an assistant coach, lied about suffering serious abuse at the hands of people, he’d be criticized too.

I mean, it’s explosive stuff in the report, if Clarko and Fagan are exonerated by new evidence, they’d no doubt come after Egan as well for being in charge of a process that stitched them up completely.

 

[Maddo11]

Your condition was about “everyone believing them”. Now that’s never going to happen. You get that, yeah?

Which circles back to his original point about morons not recognising racism

 

[JGreezy]

Remember, it’s not a court case, their word will be enough as there is enough of them and another assistant to back them up.

Its not a court case but it will be hugely swayed by public opinion. If there are records that counter certain details then I think that the public would turn very quickly. Whether that is fair or not.

 

[Maddo11]

You’d have to think though for Egan, if he was in charge of a report where a raft of people, their families and an assistant coach, lied about suffering serious abuse at the hands of people, he’d be criticized too.

I mean, it’s explosive stuff in the report, if Clarko and Fagan are exonerated by new evidence, they’d no doubt come after Egan as well for being in charge of a process that stitched them up completely.

.he was commissioned to ask former players about their experience and to report back what he found. Which is what he did. He's not a detective, there's no need for him to dig for clues or evidence.

 

[mcnulty]

Which circles back to his original point about morons not recognising racism

How can you “recognise racism” here where there is still so much we don’t know?

I'm genuinely intrigued.

 

[JGreezy]

You’d have to think though for Egan, if he was in charge of a report where a raft of people, their families and an assistant coach, lied about suffering serious abuse at the hands of people, he’d be criticized too.

I mean, it’s explosive stuff in the report, if Clarko and Fagan are exonerated by new evidence, they’d no doubt come after Egan as well for being in charge of a process that stitched them up completely.

I don't see the grounds to come after Egan unless it was proven that he leaked it to the media.

From what I understand, it was his job to compile stories for others to investigate. He did his job, whether the claims are true or not.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

.he was commissioned to ask former players about their experience and to report back what he found. Which is what he did. He's not a detective, there's no need for him to dig for clues or evidence.

Fully agree, but the way a lot of North fans are painting it, those he’s interviewed have made things up and Clarko and Fagan will straighten things it all out when they talk to the AFL review and subsequently be exonerated.

If that happened, at the very least, people would ask questions of Egan his interview techniques, and how he set up the questioning. etc if it’s found they’ve all lied.

Same for Jackson. Doubt he’d write an article again. Almost have to hand back the Walkley.