NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


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[H2F]

The worst part of this and I’ve thought about it a lot is that we live in an environment where what should happen won’t. Like any place of employment people should be able to feel safe and speak up. People who make good intentioned mistakes should be able to be spoken to about adults and given the opportunity to respond.

I wish the players and families could sit with Clarko and Fagan and share their pain. I also wish Clarko and Fagan could share in that and experience their words face to face. Tell them how sorry they are and work together to proactively learn and make real change.

But none of that will happen because the media need villains and scapegoats, the AFL are masters at protecting their brand so this will end up with some damning things said about Hawthorn and Clarko and Fagan will coach and it will be forgotten. I’ve heard it from someone who absolutely knows and that saddened me. I don’t want to see people lose their jobs if they’re intentions weren’t malicious. I don’t want to see this handled via the AFL PR machine. I don’t want lawyers playing games for payouts. I want to see real trauma from this spoken about between the parties and resultant apologies and real change from this. But that’s not what will happen.

 

[chickenonachain]

The biggest racist in all of this IMO is Jeff Kennett a golly wog collection one of which named buddy actually been photographed with it. A minor bump in the road this idiot should be run out of town.

 

[1970crow]

Thanks for the reply mate.

Texts, records, yeah I guess a raft of new evidence could come out.

Would the texts and records exonerate them though and show up all the complainants and the assistant coach?

Remember, it’s not a court case, their word will be enough as there is enough of them and another assistant to back them up.

Geez, if there’s new evidence that comes out, that would be some turnaround, Jackson and Egan would be disgraced.

No they wouldn’t. The Hawks report wasn’t a bilateral investigation. It’s remit was only to record experiences of past players, not investigate the veracity of their recollections. Jackson the same, he’s reported the first hand statements of those involved, nothing more. He provided an opportunity for the accused to respond and they declined.

An investigation that clears the coaches disgraces nobody except maybe the player/partners involved. But that would require egregious mistruths to have been put forward as fact. And most likely the answe r lies somewhere on the middle.

 

[Laphroaig]

most likely the answe lies somewhere on the middle.

You are very likely right. Good luck trying to champion the middle ground though.

Public discourse in this country long ago reached the state of a battle to the death between the most extreme views available on any given subject. Try to stand in the middle ground and the extremists will pause hostilities for long enough to stone you from both angles before starting in on each other again.

 

[sr36]

I get that.
Innocent until proven guilty is great in theory.
If the system wasn't biased. And the system is biased in part because society is.

It doesn't have to be malicious on the part of the individual but abusers of all types take advantage of it and we do live in a society that despite what some people try to tell us still favours white men over everyone else when it comes to choosing whose word to believe.

Now I believe Clarkson and Fagan would have very different views on their actions to the families impacted.

That doesn't mean their views are more truthful. That doesn't ever discount what the families on the other side felt.

I don't think this will end their careers, we aren't in that place as a country but that doesn't mean what they did wasn't wrong.

The legal system is biased towards wealth. But there's been a movement against that and the media, the general public and the corporate world have gotten on board that and created a new system that is biased against the accused, particularly if they're famous.

It's very unlikely that there won't be a finding of inappropriate intrusion into the lives of indigenous players, at the least. Which becomes an inquiry into racism at Hawthorn found them guilty of inappropriate conduct - a stench that won't go away, even if their AFL sanction is minor.

It's unfair, but I think the best case scenario for the AFL and the club's affected is a more serious finding that warrants a more serious sanction and pushes them out of the industry, with some individuals and one club bearing the brunt of the stench rather than the AFL and the innocent clubs.

 

[blackshadow]

It's unfair, but I think the best case scenario for the AFL and the club's affected is a more serious finding that warrants a more serious sanction and pushes them out of the industry, with some individuals and one club bearing the brunt of the stench rather than the AFL and the innocent clubs.

So you want scapegoats?

I doubt Clarko or Fagan will accept being made scapegoats unless there’s irrefutable evidence of them committing acts of gross misconduct. They’ll fight tooth and nail in the courts if the AFL review ends up as a stitch up.

 

[evo]

Yeah I don't know how Hawthorn gets away totally unscathed if it's found that it occurred. Financial punishment maybe? Donation to a charity?

Forced surrender of the golliwog collection.

 

[sr36]

So you want scapegoats?

I doubt Clarko or Fagan will accept being made scapegoats unless there’s irrefutable evidence of them committing acts of gross misconduct. They’ll fight tooth and nail in the courts if the AFL review ends up as a stitch up.

I don't want scapegoats. I'm not saying what I think should happen. I'm saying what I think will happen. I think it's unfair.

But even a low scale finding of inappropriate conduct is still a finding of inappropriate conduct against indigenous players in an inquiry into racism. I can't see that playing out well for anyone involved, even if the AFL sanction is rightfully low. And if they remain in the industry there will still be significant negative consequences for their employers and the AFL.

And I do think that the number of people involved will increase.

 

[Del191229]

The legal system is biased towards wealth. But there's been a movement against that and the media, the general public and the corporate world have gotten on board that and created a new system that is biased against the accused, particularly if they're famous.

It's very unlikely that there won't be a finding of inappropriate intrusion into the lives of indigenous players, at the least. Which becomes an inquiry into racism at Hawthorn found them guilty of inappropriate conduct - a stench that won't go away, even if their AFL sanction is minor.

It's unfair, but I think the best case scenario for the AFL and the club's affected is a more serious finding that warrants a more serious sanction and pushes them out of the industry, with some individuals and one club bearing the brunt of the stench rather than the AFL and the innocent clubs.

Adelaide ran a racist camp that led to an exodus of of indigenous players.

Taylor Walker then racially abused an indigenous player, got a light suspension and halfway through the season commentators were acting like he'd missed games through injury.

Where was the stench on Adelaide? Why wasn't Walker "pushed out of the industry"? Why could Don Pyke slide into a job at Sydney?

Even if we accept your unlikely (in my opinion) scenario of an outcome where Clarkson and Fagan face very serious sanctions, you underestimate what that entails.

It will mean other people in the footy department and club at the time, quite likely multiple serving senior and assistant coaches across the comp, as well as senior administrators and even AFL Commissioners being implicated and facing similar punishments.

It'll also mean very serious penalties for Hawthorn. Losing draft picks type penalties.

I think that is the most extreme outcome and very unlikely to occur, but that's also what's happening if the most serious allegations recorded by Egan and published by Jackson are found to be entirely accurate and having occurred without any mitigation.

 

[sr36]

Adelaide ran a racist camp that led to an exodus of of indigenous players.

Taylor Walker then racially abused an indigenous player, got a light suspension and halfway through the season commentators were acting like he'd missed games through injury.

Where was the stench on Adelaide? Why wasn't Walker "pushed out of the industry"? Why could Don Pyke slide into a job at Sydney?

Even if we accept your unlikely (in my opinion) scenario of an outcome where Clarkson and Fagan face very serious sanctions, you underestimate what that entails.

It will mean other people in the footy department and club at the time, quite likely multiple serving senior and assistant coaches across the comp, being implicated and facing similar punishments.

It'll also mean very serious penalties for Hawthorn. Losing draft picks type penalties.

I think that is the most extreme outcome and very unlikely to occur, but that's also what's happening if the most serious allegations recorded by Egan and published by Jackson are found to be entirely accurate and having occurred without any mitigation.

With the Adelaide camp, the original story wasn't framed as racism. When there was a resurfacing of the story, it was from Jenkins and his personal experiences. Bett's added an addendum later, but overall the story hasn't been told as a story of racism, regardless of whether it was a significant factor.

Walker was one comment.

This story has been told as a systematic negative coercive meddling into the lives of indigenous players by their bosses, with explosive content and traumatic consequences for indigenous.

It's a totally different kettle of fish

I'm not predicting a big sanction from the AFL. I'm making no prediction either way, as that will depend on the inquiry findings and the only inquiry prediction I'm making is a finding of inappropriate intrusions into the lives of players and I think that plays out really badly for all concerned.

Obviously thinks get worse if the finding also includes bullying or racial stereotyping, which it may very well. And if it includes racist behaviour, it hits a whole other level again.

And I do think that this will get bigger than those already named, as the inquiry is looking for those who knew, or sanctioned anything inappropriate, as well as those who enacted it.

 

[Del191229]

With the Adelaide camp, the original story wasn't framed as racism.

Walker was one comment.

The Adelaide camp was framed as racist if you believed the indigenous players.

As for your second comment, just ... wow.

That reads to me as a shocking diminution of open racism by a very experienced former captain of the club.

 

[DapperDon]

I see this weeks topic will revolve around Walker.

Gotta keep shifting that story from where it should be!

 

[Maddo11]

The Adelaide camp was framed as racist if you believed the indigenous players.

As for your second comment, just ... wow.

That reads to me as a shocking diminution of open racism by a very experienced former captain of the club.

Lmao what a heel turn from yourself. 200 posts about not believing The Article, but one day off and suddenly you're pulling others up on not believing indigenous players

 

[Osho]

You are very likely right. Good luck trying to champion the middle ground though.

Public discourse in this country long ago reached the state of a battle to the death between the most extreme views available on any given subject. Try to stand in the middle ground and the extremists will pause hostilities for long enough to stone you from both angles before starting in on each other again.

Shot by both sides, whilst nether glands are hooked on a barbed wire fence.

 

[Laphroaig]

I wish the players and families could sit with Clarko and Fagan and share their pain. I also wish Clarko and Fagan could share in that and experience their words face to face. Tell them how sorry they are and work together to proactively learn and make real change.

You are talking about mediation, kind of. Except that a mediation which commences with a pre determined mandatory end state is off to a very bad start.

It is my understanding that the planned next step from the Hawthorn review was indeed to go into mediation processes. Although I do have my doubts as to whether the motivation for that planned course was unsullied in its purity of motive.

It is my opinion that the people who made the allegations will live to deeply regret the decision to bypass mediation and fast forward to a head kicking litigator and a story in the press.

Depends to some extent whether briefing the the lawyer signifies an intent to litigate or the threat of willingness to litigate. Also to some extent who (if anyone) is paying the bill, if it is pro bono or if it is on a contingency percentage.

Unless they are paying themselves, and there is no reason to believe that a group of young guys with young families can afford $10,000 a day representation, then they have surrendered control. Benefactor = somebody elses agenda is king. Pro bono = maximise publicity is king. Contingency = maximise $$$ is king.

It is not particularly likely that any of those three imperatives is going to furnish a happy year or two ahead.

 

[sr36]

The Adelaide camp was framed as racist if you believed the indigenous players.

As for your second comment, just ... wow.

That reads to me as a shocking diminution of open racism by a very experienced former captain of the club.

The second comment is quite simply a statement that Walker isn't big enough and his inappropriate behaviour isnt big enough for that story to go viral in the non-football public, which is where most of the backlash will be driven by. For the non-football world, some dumb footy player they haven't heard of has made a racist comment Vs this Hawthorn stuff. You're kidding yourself if you think they're remotely comparable in terms of scale.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You'd think something would have to happen.
Compensation to the players and their families to start with.

The AFL only has a few levers to pull; $$$, draft picks, suspensions .....remember the days when drinking on plane flights was seen as "bringing the game into disrepute" and suspensions occurred

FWIW .....it's going to come down to how many $$$ are involved in compensatory costs

 

[Del191229]

The second comment is quite simply a statement that Walker isn't big enough and his inappropriate behaviour isnt big enough for that story to go viral in the non-football public, which is where most of the backlash will be driven by. For the non-football world, some dumb footy player they haven't heard of has made a racist comment Vs this Hawthorn stuff. You're kidding yourself if you think they're remotely comparable in terms of scale.

If they haven't heard of Taylor Walker then they haven't heard of Chris Fagan or Alistair Clarkson either.

Let's just leave this here as you actively diminishing disgusting racist abuse is making me pretty angry and I don't want another ban.

I've called you out on it here and if you wish to reflect on the matter, that's your business.

 

[sr36]

If they haven't heard of Taylor Walker then they haven't heard of Chris Fagan or Alistair Clarkson either.

Let's just leave this here as you actively diminishing disgusting racist abuse is making me pretty angry and I don't want another ban.

I've called you out on it here and if you wish to reflect on the matter, that's your business.

The point is they don't have to have heard of the coaches for that story to go viral.

LOL to the rest.

You're quite a piece of work.

 

[Curly5]

I’m talking precisely about the “real world” and how it works now and how the complainants lawyers are setting it up.

A lawyer representing one of the families alleged to have been mistreated by the club said her clients are unsure if they will participate in the investigation into the claims.

"My clients are still very traumatised and they're not in a position to make a final decision about which pathway they may take," Dr Judy Courtin told ABC Sport.

So them not participating in the investigation due to trauma is not going to help Clarko’s, Fagan or the AFL’s cause at all. On the contrary, it looks even worse. Hence the catch-22 reference as a lame-duck report like this won’t lead to an outcome where they can coach again, no way the public would be appeased once Jackson starts writing again and we hear even more from the victims.

Are they traumatised since the enquiry and interview, or since the events of nearly ten years ago? If the latter, why didn't they just leave straight after? Did anything else happen during the ensuing months/years at the club?

 

[Intothewind]

I'm a proud North supporter and hope Clarko is found innocent and coaches us to multiple flags. This is what I'm hoping for because I'm biased for North. If you barrrack for other teams you likely want Clarko hung at dawn, fair enough thats how footy works.
This is after all a footy forum. If we weren't on bigfooty so much we would all be making speeches at the UN general assembly, don't let anybody tell you that's not true.
If this were a lawyers chat group it would be innocent until proven guilty, other forums will be guilty until proven innocent.
The only thing we know is none of us yet know for certain what happened to cause the pain and suffering of families involved.
But we will know soon enough. And if Clarko is guilty of racism, f* him. He can go coach Essendon I'm sure they'd take him.

 

[boncer34]

If they haven't heard of Taylor Walker then they haven't heard of Chris Fagan or Alistair Clarkson either.

Let's just leave this here as you actively diminishing disgusting racist abuse is making me pretty angry and I don't want another ban.

I've called you out on it here and if you wish to reflect on the matter, that's your business.

Says the bloke willing to ignore it entirely if it means his club benefits.

 

[Pie eyed]

I don't see the grounds to come after Egan unless it was proven that he leaked it to the media.

From what I understand, it was his job to compile stories for others to investigate. He did his job, whether the claims are true or not.

Agree.

 

[ferball]

Hi Ferbs, can you expand on the NT bail laws that you say target aboriginal youth. I’ve heard numerous people talk about racist laws etc but I’m unaware of a real world example.

Just trying to expand my knowledge in this area.

You can start here:

Article

newsroom.nt.gov.au

I'll follow up any questions you have, maybe here maybe somewhere else.

 

[JackOutback]

If they haven't heard of Taylor Walker then they haven't heard of Chris Fagan or Alistair Clarkson either.

Let's just leave this here as you actively diminishing disgusting racist abuse is making me pretty angry and I don't want another ban.

I've called you out on it here and if you wish to reflect on the matter, that's your business.

So we can add ‘I know you are but what am I’ to Gish Gallop in your arsenal of debating tools.