NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the report button, please and thank you.

If you feel upset or need to talk you can call either Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 at any time.

- Crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 13YARN (13 92 76) 13YARN - Call 13 92 76 | 24 /7

This is a serious topic, please treat it as such.

Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[Intothewind]

The inuit people have a hundred words for snow because they see all it's variations.

We have 1 word for racism and that probably means we have a lot to learn.

 

[Fabab]

What has the bont been saying?

 

[parsons nose]

Missing training doesn't automatically mean low credibility.

The fact he did the same at Richmond earlier and got delisted for it by them shows his issues pre-dated Hawthorn and that other clubs would also have delisted him.

What does impact on his credibility is that he later spoke to media in such glowing terms about Hawthorn (same ad JML). It doesn't mean they are lying but creates doubt and could also help to explain why the coaches are so surprised at the claims.



On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Interesting point about speaking in glowing terms. When was that?

 

[cfc to aufc]

Because by highlighting the most extreme allegations (i.e. forced abortion) Jackson essentially painted Clarkson, Fagan and Burt into a corner.

Essentially anyone reading his article would come to the conclusion that the three accused acted in a racist manner and by definition are racist (when in reality there will be all kinds of shades of gray into what actually happened and the motivations and intent from both sides).

Hence how can the three accused go to mediation as any attempt at mediation will in essence be admitting racist intent on their behalf?

His article basically sent both the players and the coaches into a death spiral from which there will be no winners (apart from the lawyers charging in 15 minute blocks).

Of course there is the whole other issue of publishing an article of this nature without any input from the three accused but thats already been done to death on this forum.

I thought it was in 6 minute blocks

 

[tandino]

should of done from day 1, easy to throw stones when your invisible

Nothing about this could be called easy.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Self serving? The afl would absolutely have tried to cover this up. The content was in the public interest and now they're free of the AFL, those involved can seek a real resolution, in part because of the journalism.

Im not sure exactly what jacksons article should be described as but 'journalism' certainly isnt it.

 

[JackOutback]

Yep I'll believe fagan over disgruntled former employees 100percent

This is what victims experience all across the country.

I’ll believe a respected priest over some kid who began acting out for no reason I can think of. I’ll believe that respected boss over his young employee who just flaked out and quit her job for reasons unknown. I’ll believe that white footballer over that Aboriginal one who is always getting angry on the field inexplicably.

It’s so unbelievably boring how unoriginal this defence is.

 

[wilsonmatic]

I had a feeling Cyril was involved in this from the get go.. Was never sure though.

 

[Gralin]

Rioli being named is what’s stopped that, if it was just the others you can guarantee the character assassinations would be flying.

Yes I've seen Peterson and JML and Egan given that treatment in this thread but they've not managed it with Cyril, closest they can get is via scoffing at Shannyn calling Kennett racist like we don't have a laundry list of examples of Jeffery being racist.

 

[LunchboxLegend]

This is what victims experience all across the country.

I’ll believe a respected priest over some kid who began acting out for no reason I can think of. I’ll believe that respected boss over his young employee who just flaked out and quit her job for reasons unknown. I’ll believe that white footballer over that Aboriginal one who is always getting angry on the field inexplicably.

It’s so unbelievably boring how unoriginal this defence is.

Unfortunately, automatically believing accusers leads to an ever darker place.
it’s why the entire legal/criminal system is based on the presumption of innocence.

 

[jerry springer]

Nothing about this could be called easy.

100% agree

but if your going to accuse people of some pretty horrendous act, you dont hide for 9 months

 

[mighty_lions]

This is what victims experience all across the country.

I’ll believe a respected priest over some kid who began acting out for no reason I can think of. I’ll believe that respected boss over his young employee who just flaked out and quit her job for reasons unknown. I’ll believe that white footballer over that Aboriginal one who is always getting angry on the field inexplicably.

It’s so unbelievably boring how unoriginal this defence is.

so we just believe everything we are told and just accept it as fact....yeah no thanks that's not for me

 

[Rob R]

Interesting point about speaking in glowing terms. When was that?

May 2011



Peterson credits the Hawthorn support network, Cooke's example and commitment, and the strength and love of his partner Nikita with putting him in a very happy space.


Jason Burt did a lot for me, David Flood, Clarko - they had a lot of faith in me and Michael Cooke is another one of those blokes. He's given me the opportunity to work for him.

''I'm just lucky I've had those people. I see Jason Burt around the place. They're friends that you make for life and we catch up now and again and have a good chat.''

Carl's new dawn

Newfound confidence has a former Hawk flying again.

www.theage.com.au

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Devington]

I had a feeling Cyril was involved in this from the get go.. Was never sure though.

They themselves said they didn't talk to hawthorn, but after the ABC article would be involved in the AFL investigation.

 

[LunchboxLegend]

May 2011



Peterson credits the Hawthorn support network, Cooke's example and commitment, and the strength and love of his partner Nikita with putting him in a very happy space.


Jason Burt did a lot for me, David Flood, Clarko - they had a lot of faith in me and Michael Cooke is another one of those blokes. He's given me the opportunity to work for him.

''I'm just lucky I've had those people. I see Jason Burt around the place. They're friends that you make for life and we catch up now and again and have a good chat.''

Carl's new dawn

Newfound confidence has a former Hawk flying again.

www.theage.com.au

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

May 2011



Peterson credits the Hawthorn support network, Cooke's example and commitment, and the strength and love of his partner Nikita with putting him in a very happy space.


Jason Burt did a lot for me, David Flood, Clarko - they had a lot of faith in me and Michael Cooke is another one of those blokes. He's given me the opportunity to work for him.

''I'm just lucky I've had those people. I see Jason Burt around the place. They're friends that you make for life and we catch up now and again and have a good chat.''

Carl's new dawn

Newfound confidence has a former Hawk flying again.

www.theage.com.au

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Oops! There goes the lawsuit.

 

[mighty_lions]

May 2011



Peterson credits the Hawthorn support network, Cooke's example and commitment, and the strength and love of his partner Nikita with putting him in a very happy space.


Jason Burt did a lot for me, David Flood, Clarko - they had a lot of faith in me and Michael Cooke is another one of those blokes. He's given me the opportunity to work for him.

''I'm just lucky I've had those people. I see Jason Burt around the place. They're friends that you make for life and we catch up now and again and have a good chat.''

Carl's new dawn

Newfound confidence has a former Hawk flying again.

www.theage.com.au

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

no mention of any of this in the Jackson article.....seems balanced and fair to me

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Re: Cyril - he was given incredible latitude for his heritage - more so than many (any) other player on our list during his career. An argument for "rules based on performance" certainly, but not one for allegation of "Racist" treatment.

It's taken everyone 8 months, but perhaps this step will finally manage to move past the issues caused by the ABC grandstanding before the subsequent AFL investigation incompetence. If only Hawthorn hadn't followed the AFL rules, if only ABC hadn't published, if only the AFL weren't incompetent (or deliberately sweeping under the rug) this could have all happened behind closed doors, we would all be none the wiser, and genuine change and improvement could have happened industry wide.

One question that I still don't understand - where were the Player Managers in all of this? Are they just $$$-hungry parasites that turn up at contract renewal? Surely they should be numero uno in these discussions.

IMO, claims of "Racism" need be stepped back from quickly (and should have day 1) - instead this should have been an examination into significant over-reach of coaches and staff into player's private lives. White, Black, Pink, Orange - it's not the colour of skin or a player's background that was the concern of coaching staff here, it was about finding what was (or believed to be) stopping the player from reaching their potential. Playing AFL is obviously not a standard employer/employee relationship. The players ability to prepare physically and mentally is significantly beyond almost any other career path requiring 24/7 level commitment (diet, rest, recovery, fitness, mental, skills, training, sponsors, travel, gameday, etc).

I started addressing the players noted, then realised my point may be better made by including other players' stories - so below is a list of 'random' player stories from the last twenty years following Hawthorn...no doubt some are exaggerated, part-truths, misremembered or even maybe factual. I think Hawthorn fans could name most if they tried. Some players changed and succeeded, some succeeded in spite of issues. Some failed to change and failed, and no doubt some changed but still failed at footy.

• A player isn't following his rehabilitation plan, nor interacting with team-mates socially anymore. The club encourages him to separate from his partner and 'force' him into social situations and group rehabilitation where he wasn't comfortable.
• A player who couldn't sleep with young children, the club criticised his family planning, and then arranged to separate him from his family.
• A player that couldn't make it to training, was unprepared on game day and disappeared for days without notice. The club provided a "shield" (or fence) to ensure he was where he should be.
• A player with party drugs issues, seen as a bad influence on other players. The club (AFAIK) didn't stop him, but ostracised him socially.
• A player popular at nightclubs, the club allocated minders to keep him under control, enacted strict curfews and treated him like a child.
• A player who was confronted about his contract and future intentions whilst on the other side of the world during his mandated leave.
• A player who requested help with ending his relationship as he was scared of retribution from the partner's family if his infidelity was caught and/or he left her. The club intervened, assisted in his relocation and obtained his personal items.
• A player with gambling and substance issues, who's mates dominated life outside the club. He was forced to choose between friends and career.
• A player who was a gang member, advised to "find new friends", instead left the club (and AFL) at end of season.
• A player who had issues with his self-control, diet and alcohol every off-season. The club first arranged a family friend to "spy" on him and report back to the club on his activities, then even tried to "ban" him from going back to his family.
• A player who embraced his traditional hunting pastime, was strongly advised not to due to potential risks - suffered ongoing medical and health complications and left the club feeling unsupported.
• A player who was in trouble with serious substance abuse, but hid it completely. The club had no idea until the AFL suspended him on third strike. The player was "protected" from the club by the AFLPA drug policy, and Hawthorn suggested they could have 'fixed' him if only they knew.
• A player known for his personal and family issues, the club confronted his wife and he retired early for (perhaps) non football reasons.
• A player who wanted his entire family to join him at the club's expense. The club refused, advised he would have a better chance if he came over alone and stayed with a member of staff. The club refused to cover either his extended family's living costs, or their return after he was delisted.
• A player who's friends included people "known to police". The club advised the player to separate from this friend/group or risk being delisted.
• A young player with an overbearing parent who was told (as was the parent) to back off. They didn't and he left, potential seemingly unfulfilled.
• A player who's own mother contacts the club concerned for his mental well-being, who confided her son's partner was threatening self-harm if he left. The club offered support and reported her to mental health groups. They then assisted in his relocation and isolation from her.
• A young player who "was all that" after dominating local footy, was told to focus on footy and not the side benefits, didn't, and was then cut unexpectedly whilst recovering from lingering injuries.

In all of the above (there's probably lots more I can't remember or never heard), I genuine believe the club thought they were 'doing the right thing' - responding to an issue by providing a solution/situation they thought would improve the chances of success - measured as the advancement of the players' career (and thus the Hawthorn Football Club). I don't think any of them are racially motivated. But is their any REAL justification for that level of personal involvement? Or should it just be "comply with our expectations, or fail and be cut" (unless you are good enough) like the US sports? Who's decision to determine the "line" and how can it be based in such a unique industry?

This case may well determine where the boundary falls. I hope that line falls WAY back towards a 'normal' workplace environment, with a "where the hell were you?" directed at AFLPA, Player Managers and Welfare staff. This would lead to a significant switch away from club control of players, to their personal responsibility for preparation, significantly increasing the requirements on Player Managers and Welfare staff, and reducing the all-encompassing roles provided by the club.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

May 2011



Peterson credits the Hawthorn support network, Cooke's example and commitment, and the strength and love of his partner Nikita with putting him in a very happy space.


Jason Burt did a lot for me, David Flood, Clarko - they had a lot of faith in me and Michael Cooke is another one of those blokes. He's given me the opportunity to work for him.

''I'm just lucky I've had those people. I see Jason Burt around the place. They're friends that you make for life and we catch up now and again and have a good chat.''

Carl's new dawn

Newfound confidence has a former Hawk flying again.

www.theage.com.au

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

There's another article from JML along very similar lines the year after his delisting too.

 

[KM00]

I think there was a real chance of it all being hosed down before going anywhere before however and that it's possible those involved feel more empowered to go further now in light of the story coming out.

thats what I still dont get.

Hawthorn WERE looking at it. They had the review, asking the questions ... the AFL might not have done anywthing, but Hawthorn were trying to learn what happened and how to do better. !!!

I do understand that Hawthorn were never going to be able to get the 3 accused coaches to the table as none of them worked there anymore - but Hawthorn were listen.

 

[JackOutback]

Oops! There goes the lawsuit.

LOL, no. There are very valid reasons why victims of abuse don’t come forward and may even speak highly of their abuser, including fear of reprisals, maybe he still had hopes of salvaging a career etc.

If anything, this thread shows just how many people are ignorant of what abuse victims go through and how easily some want to disbelieve them.

 

[Gralin]

There's another article from JML along very similar lines the year after his delisting too.

Anyone in the system or hoping to get back in isn't going to say anything negative about the system

 

[mighty_lions]

Anyone in the system or hoping to get back in isn't going to say anything negative about the system

they don't have to say positive things either though they could say nothing.....

 

[LunchboxLegend]

LOL, no. There are very valid reasons why victims of abuse don’t come forward and may even speak highly of their abuser, including fear of reprisals, maybe he still had hopes of salvaging a career etc.

If anything, this thread shows just how many people are ignorant of what abuse victims go through and how easily some want to disbelieve them.

So a jury would need to consider whether the positive quotes were made:
- because he meant them; or
- because, despite being delisted by not one, but two clubs, for indiscretions including ‘going missing for days/weeks at a time’, that gushing about Hawthorn would win him a third chance at another club.

….ok.

 

[KM00]

If anything, this thread goes to show just how many people fail to understand what it takes to make it in professional sport.

It takes passion and talent and skills - but more than that it takes dedication, persistance and a LOT of sacrifice!!! Sacrificing being with family, moving accross the country, delaying having kids, sacrifice in personal relationships .... there is a lot that you need to give up, and be prepared to go to extraordinary lengths to make it.

It is not a normal job. Its not a normal employee/employer relationship. It cant be compared to a normal career.

But it is a choice. If you dont want to make those sacrifices, you are free to walk away at any time. Its not slavery, its an opportunity

 

[the big lebowski]

Can someone from any side of the debate answer me this. Please.

The Rioli’s have a massive public grievance with Jeff Kennett. It’s public, seems vicious. They also seem to publicly endorse Clarko as late as last year (certainly compared to Jeff). As a result of this, the hawks commission a report that doesn’t look at that period?

Regardless, we have the so called “shit show” that has been the last 8 months, and a HRC case is submitted whereby the rioli’s want to take on Clarkson and leave Kennett be.

What’s up with that?