NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[sr36]

Yep I’m waiting for trial and verdict to be educated in these things. How it works in practice in what is western justice system

I think it will be settled rather than getting to court.

 

[Lockyer24]

Looks very bad for Clarko - you have two players, both end of the spectrum (VFL player and club legend) saying he has the same attitude towards them re: having kids

 

[Outtatym]

Absolute rubbish re Shaun. Could not be further from the truth.

Elaborate?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

That's the inference that I took from it - and that i thought was deliberately meant to be taken - that he was around so quickly that he must have called from outside the house, or just up the road.

So did i. I struggle to understand why he would be sitting just outside the house-without further information for context. It doesnt make a great deal of sense (if it happened in that sequence as alleged).

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Behaviours are culture. If you're trying to control and enforce behaviours that you think are appropriate - it's pretty likely that your control is going to fall more heavily on cultural groups that are different from your own. The obvious potential one in these Hawthorn stories relate to cultural norms about age to begin a family. For middle aged white private school guys, getting into really serious relationships and having kids as a young man- before your career has really started - is far from the norm and likely to be behaviours that you want to control - if you're that way inclined. But having kids early is pretty cultural normal in Aboriginal communities.

What you are describing is an inappropriate workplace culture but it isnt an inherently racist one (purely off this information..if there was other credible evidence of additional race based issues that may change the context).

 

[Paul Medhurst]

Behaviours are culture. If you're trying to control and enforce behaviours that you think are appropriate - it's pretty likely that your control is going to fall more heavily on cultural groups that are different from your own. The obvious potential one in these Hawthorn stories relate to cultural norms about age to begin a family. For middle aged white private school guys, getting into really serious relationships and having kids as a young man- before your career has really started - is far from the norm and likely to be behaviours that you want to control - if you're that way inclined. But having kids early is pretty cultural normal in Aboriginal communities.

I think the part where you state they were trying to enforce white cultural norms on a young indigenous player by discouraging him from having children is such a stretch it is absolutely laughable.

The AFL is a high performance industry, and there are innumerable academic papers written on the effect on your career of having children young, and the benefits - for your children, yourself, your career - of establishing yourself financially before having children.

To the tone of how it was communicated, I can’t comment. But to say it was purely enforcing white cultural norms and completely overlooking the desire for the highest possible performance? Laughable.

 

[peetoo]

I think the part where you state they were trying to enforce white cultural norms on a young indigenous player by discouraging him from having children is such a stretch it is absolutely laughable.

The AFL is a high performance industry, and there are innumerable academic papers written on the effect on your career of having children young, and the benefits - for your children, yourself, your career - of establishing yourself financially before having children.

To the tone of how it was communicated, I can’t comment. But to say it was purely enforcing white cultural norms and completely overlooking the desire for the highest possible performance? Laughable.

Let’s ask the Chinese if they ‘encourage’ their athletes to delay having young families. It’s just not a white/European thing either.
We have countless examples of parents everywhere deliberately abusing their own kids if they see glory as athletes

 

[VinnieB]

Looks very bad for Clarko - you have two players, both end of the spectrum (VFL player and club legend) saying he has the same attitude towards them re: having kids

I don’t know. They could be conspiring, or not.
I think there should be a presumption of innocence and let’s see what comes out of the courts. Clarko, Fagan and the other guy should at least have an opportunity to present their own view of events.

The public seems to assume the accused are guilty. Hearing both sides I suppose will give us more context of events.

 

[sr36]

What you are describing is an inappropriate workplace culture but it isnt an inherently racist one (purely off this information..if there was other credible evidence of additional race based issues that may change the context).

Basically there's two significantly different definitions of racism. The older layman's one looks only at the attitudes of the person being accused.

The newer one that matters also looks at the outcomes of policy and actions.

If one group is disadvantaged by policies or actions it can be categorised as discrimination - regardless of whether racist attitudes were present or whether those policies would have applied to everyone in the organisation.

The case isn't about whether Hawthorn had racist attitudes, it's about whether there was racial discrimination.

 

[western royboy]

I don’t know. They could be conspiring, or not.
I think there should be a presumption of innocence and let’s see what comes out of the courts. Clarko, Fagan and the other guy should at least have an opportunity to present their own view of events.

The public seems to assume the accused are guilty. Hearing both sides I suppose will give us more context of events.

The action is between the players and Hawthorn. Having been through a similar type of situation I would be staggered if it gets anywhere near a court.

If it is settled out if court, no one will be admitting anything - a sum of money is paid - non disclosure agreements are signed and everything goes away…

There’s going to be no right or wrong here - there will only be one set of winners and they’re the lawyers for both sides - they always get paid.

 

[VinnieB]

“Mr Clarkson, Mr Fagan and Mr Burt were present in the room before Mr Peterson arrived,” the document says.

“There was initially some friendly and positive discussion about how impressed the coaches were with Mr Peterson’s development and skills as a player.

“Mr Burt then informed Mr Peterson that he had shared Mr Peterson’s news with Mr Clarkson and Mr Fagan.

“Mr Burt said words to the effect: ‘Carl, being a father is a huge responsibility and we don’t think you’re ready to be a father.’

“Mr Clarkson said words to the effect: ‘Carl, you need to break up with Nikita and focus only on your football.’

“Mr Clarkson said words to the effect: ‘Unless you break up with her and tell her to terminate the pregnancy, your football career will be in jeopardy.’

“Mr Fagan nodded his head during the meeting”.

I hope it didn’t happen that way. That’s disgraceful.

 

[Bostonian]

I heard it in WA 40 years ago, never since

Likewise. I recollect that by the time the 90's rolled around it was well and truly considered a terrible thing to say.

I doubt most people born after Gen X had ever heard the word in most cities. Rural might be different.

 

[JackOutback]

Hopefully the person who used the term has educated themselves and doesn't use the term anymore, but do you think in the context of trying to get to know the Aborginal player on a deeper level that the player meant harm when using the term?

It’s a vile slur that I had hoped had died out 30 to 40 years ago, it’s never had any other connotation and to suggest that using it was ‘naive’ in order to get to know him better is beyond naive from you. It was an insult and to defend it is to continue the insult.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Basically there's two significantly different definitions of racism. The older layman's one looks only at the attitudes of the person being accused.

The newer one that matters also looks at the outcomes of policy and actions.

If one group is disadvantaged by policies or actions it can be categorised as discrimination - regardless of whether racist attitudes were present or whether those policies would have applied to everyone in the organisation.

The case isn't about whether Hawthorn had racist attitudes, it's about whether there was racial discrimination.

I absolutely agree this issue is about discrimination. But not all discrimination is racial in nature.

In terms of the case itself the plaintiffs arent alleging just general or specific discrimination they appear to be alleging direct racism so that claim will need to be tested and asessed by the trial judge (if this ends up at a trial).

 

[South of the Yarra]

Elaborate?

Shaun is his own person as are all Aboriginal people. Aboriginals are not a collective. Just because two or 3 may be upset this does not mean there is a walk out of all Aboriginals. Shaun may be happy as things may not have happened to him, Shaun may not want to speak out as he may not want to jeopardise what he has, he may be happy with the wage and security for his family. There is a myriad of reasons. Perhaps Shaun didn't challenge like others, perhaps he toed the line more.

 

[thisismyname]

What happened to the image of a family club? I think no father sons for Hawthorn as punishment.

 

[sr36]

I think the part where you state they were trying to enforce white cultural norms on a young indigenous player by discouraging him from having children is such a stretch it is absolutely laughable.

The AFL is a high performance industry, and there are innumerable academic papers written on the effect on your career of having children young, and the benefits - for your children, yourself, your career - of establishing yourself financially before having children.

To the tone of how it was communicated, I can’t comment. But to say it was purely enforcing white cultural norms and completely overlooking the desire for the highest possible performance? Laughable.

You've put a lot of words into my mouth. I didn't state that. I said it was a potential example. I didn't say that they weren't aiming for highest possible performance

As much as you may want the AFL to be treated as a special exemption, it's a workplace that has to follow labour laws.

I'm just pointing out that a policy can apply to everyone, yet racially discriminate.

And whether you like it or not or think it's in their best interests or not, it's likely that more Aboriginal players will start families at a younger age, as the age people have kids varies in different cultures.

Bobby Hill goes alright. Clubs are learning to embrace families, difference and culture

 

[sr36]

I absolutely agree this issue is about discrimination. But not all discrimination is racial in nature.

In terms of the case itself the plaintiffs arent alleging just general or specific discrimination they appear to be alleging direct racism so that claim will need to be tested and asessed by the trial judge (if this ends up at a trial).

The discrimination being claimed here is racial. Could be hard to argue for some of it, even if events are agreed upon.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

You've put a lot of words into my mouth. I didn't state that. I said it was a potential example. I didn't say that they weren't aiming for highest possible performance

As much as you may want the AFL to be treated as a special exemption, it's a workplace that has to follow labour laws.

I'm just pointing out that a policy can apply to everyone, yet racially discriminate.

And whether you like it or not or think it's in their best interests or not, it's likely that more Aboriginal players will start families at a younger age, as the age people have kids varies in different cultures.

Bobby Hill goes alright. Clubs are learning to embrace families, difference and culture

The bolded - they're LEARNING

You want to make a song and dance about hill, yet Collingwood very publicly made a fool of themselves about things they'd said and did during the exact same time these accusation against hawthorn happened

 

[sr36]

The bolded - they're LEARNING

You want to make a song and dance about hill, yet Collingwood very publicly made a fool of themselves about things they'd said and did during the exact same time these accusation against hawthorn happened

I agree. I'm not making it about clubs. Collingwood have been the worst, but it's been a nation wide thing. I think we've been generally accepting of different race for a while, but not different culture. Howard won two elections on different culture. They're current leader is his protege.

Hill was just the one who popped into my head as a young Aboriginal bloke with a family who looks to be prospering. I only know Collingwood in terms of who has families.

 

[Black Diamond]

Among other problems with the pleadings, take a look at the particulars to paragraph 102:

Copies of the text messages are no longer available to Mr Rioli.

Striking out is on the table.

 

[rjslcM]

I think the part where you state they were trying to enforce white cultural norms on a young indigenous player by discouraging him from having children is such a stretch it is absolutely laughable.

The AFL is a high performance industry, and there are innumerable academic papers written on the effect on your career of having children young, and the benefits - for your children, yourself, your career - of establishing yourself financially before having children.

To the tone of how it was communicated, I can’t comment. But to say it was purely enforcing white cultural norms and completely overlooking the desire for the highest possible performance? Laughable.

Let’s ask the Chinese if they ‘encourage’ their athletes to delay having young families. It’s just not a white/European thing either.
We have countless examples of parents everywhere deliberately abusing their own kids if they see glory as athletes

I get that football clubs are particular types of workplaces, but they are still workplaces at the end of the day.

Imagine your own workplace. Management shouldn’t be telling you whether or not you should break up with your partner or terminate a pregnancy, reglardless of what field you work in. Your friends and family might get a say in your life, but not management. Management should support you and let your performance within the workplace dictate whether you are retained. Should management warn staff members that having kids early might impact their careers? Maybe, but this can be dispersed in an induction session where all new employees are present, along with other important correlates to success. Then, let the cards fall where they may.

I agree that if the allegations are true, they weren't done with an intention to enforce white cultural norms. I agree that the intention would have been to get the highest possible performance. But to isolate someone with a different culture and tell them that they shouldn't have a child or they may lose their job is foolish. It is negligent to overlook that this situation could feel discriminatory by the employee, as others in the organisation are allowed to live their private lives in alignment with their cultural values and be given the chance to perform the duties required, but not the employee.

This is negligent, regardless as to whether its in a normal workplace or a 'high performance industry'. Of course, if you choose to have kids and you are then unable to perform your duties, then, you should be given the sack. Whether or not you have those kids is not the decision of management and they should not be telling you what to do, however. That is your private life.

If you don't believe it is negligent towards cultural differences from a professional standpoint, then I hope you aren't in management overseeing a diverse team.

 

[Hawks_4478]

“Mr Peterson had sufficient skill and abilities as a football player of that age to have a long and successful career.”

What a blatant lie! He had already been delisted by Richmond without playing a game, was then a late rookie draft pick by Hawthorn. The chance of a delisted player and/ or late rookie draft player having a long and successful career is very slim.

 

[Maddo11]

“Mr Peterson had sufficient skill and abilities as a football player of that age to have a long and successful career.”

What a blatant lie! He had already been delisted by Richmond without playing a game, was then a late rookie draft pick by Hawthorn. The chance of a delisted player and/ or late rookie draft player having a long and successful career is very slim.

Makes it even weirder that Clarko and co would go the route they did, suggesting fatherhood would impact his career, when the odds were already so far against him.

 

[sr36]

Don't get a manager. They take too much money. Burt can be your manager.

Doesn't look good.