NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[WillHayward]

Well yeah, but anyone with half a brain cell and basic understanding of this country's past would see that it is highly racially insensitive for white people to question the ability of black people to raise their own children.

I mean shit surely they knew this was a very delicate matter?

Besides, next time a person at one's workplace announces they are pregnant, I challenge anyone in this thread to go up and discuss with them the career implications it might have. Bonus points if you are their manager! Go on, give it a go!

Yep I hear you

Whitie telling U that ain't a good way to deal with it. Agreed. And agreed it's not a workplace matter.

 

[sr36]

FWIW tho in 2009 these ideas were not mainstream. The systemic racism that occurred was more a result of attitude than structure. It was better than 1989 for sure but by 2019 things were very different. In 2009 if you weren't black or an academic you wouldn't have been exposed to the idea of systemic structural racism that was a function of institutional existence not just a deliberate bastard act.

My view is if the accounts are accurate, it's most likely not systemic racism - but discrimination based on culture, which is still alive and kicking and is probably a more important distinction than between direct and systemic radicm- as many discriminate based on culture, but get their backs up about the term racism because they associate that only with KKK racial superiority beliefs. I doubt the stylishly dressed, fluent Standard Australian English speaking Tony Armstrong cops much discrimination, but Derek Kickett with his cultural markers would probably cop a heap.

I think beliefs in racial superioty are mostly gone, but cultural discrimination and superiority is well and truly alive and kicking. And in that era, acceptance of Aboriginal culture hadn't even begun. Aboriginal culture was just viewed as poverty and a lack of opportunity. There was no comprehension that Aboriginal people could be better off holding onto culture. It was about giving them the opportunity to live our culture. The multicultural dream of the time, was really a multiracial dream - it was about different racial groups becoming "Aussie" saying "mate" with an Aussie accent. It was about encouraging blacks to behave more white. You're not getting pissed with the boys, lyou talk funny, you're having kids too young, you've got too many relos dropping over - be more like Hodgey.

 

[sr36]

Which is wrong, intention should be taken into account. I just can't agree with this.

That's for indirect discrimination. But yes if intention can be shown become much more serious, but the reality is it's usually very hard to establish an intention in terms of indirect discrimination.

 

[EconomicDecline]

Firstly, anyone with any intelligence knows that you need to hear the other side of the story before forming the opinion that the defendants are guilty. They are only claims/ allegations at this stage. They have not been proven to be correct. The law is innocent until proven guilty - something that you continually have great difficulty in understanding.

Anyone with any intelligence knows that if multiple parties are bringing a claim to federal court, they're going to rely on more than hearsay.

Secondly, the majority of the claims are unsubstantiated. For example, the document regularly states that copies of the text messages are no longer available. A lot of conversations without witnesses, lack of supporting evidence etc. As the law is innocent until proven guilty, unsubstantiated claims like these won’t hold up in a court of law.

How do you know this? Again there is going to be evidence to the claims that doesn't need to be shown in a statement of claim. Only in court.

This is also shown in the two reports by former Justice John Middleton KC and Gordon Legal. They found:

- a startling lack of evidence to support the allegations;

- concluded that the allegation that an Indigenous player and his partner were pressured to terminate a pregnancy could not be substantiated;

- a claim that the Hawks had demanded the separation of another First Nations family for the sake of the player’s career was also considered to be lacking in evidence;

- there was no basis whatsoever to support suggestions a subculture of racism had existed at Hawthorn or that the three accused club officials had behaved in anything other than a caring way for their players; and

- no sufficient evidence to substantiate the vast majority of the claims.


Allegations need to be proven and have actual evidence before they can be believed. Again, something that you continually have great difficulty in understanding.

Ah yes. The AFL's kangaroo court. What a thing to rely on.

 

[the big lebowski]

Anyone with any intelligence knows that if multiple parties are bringing a claim to federal court, they're going to rely on more than hearsay.



How do you know this? Again there is going to be evidence to the claims that doesn't need to be shown in a statement of claim. Only in court.



Ah yes. The AFL's kangaroo court. What a thing to rely on.

The multiple parties are contesting a range of issues against a range of people. Some are likely to be 100% accurate, some grey and some likely embellished.

Ie I have no doubt clarko nicknamed rioli Humphrey. But I’m 100% sure he did it due to Rioli’s quiet nature. As Matthew Kreuzer, Shaun Atley, and Justin Westhoff also got the nickname (as did probably 20 other afl footballers over the last 20 years).

So sure. 100% happened.

Was it racist, nah. Unless rioli said “hey clarko i feel the nickname you have given me is racist. It makes me feel uncomfortable, please stop.”

If clarko still called him that, then yeah. It happened 100% and it’s racist 100%

 

[EconomicDecline]

The multiple parties are contesting a range of issues against a range of people. Some are likely to be 100% accurate, some grey and some likely embellished.

Ie I have no doubt clarko nicknamed rioli Humphrey. But I’m 100% sure he did it due to Rioli’s quiet nature. As Matthew Kreuzer, Shaun Atley, and Justin Westhoff also got the nickname (as did probably 20 other afl footballers over the last 20 years).

So sure. 100% happened.

Was it racist, nah. Unless rioli said “hey clarko i feel the nickname you have given me is racist. It makes me feel uncomfortable, please stop.”

If clarko still called him that, then yeah. It happened 100% and it’s racist 100%

Again. You do not go to the Federal Court with embellished stories. Acting as if Arnold Bloch Leibler is some dinky little ambulance chasing law firm.

 

[the big lebowski]

Again. You do not go to the Federal Court with embellished stories. Acting as if Arnold Bloch Leibler is some dinky little ambulance chasing law firm.

No ones embellished a story in federal court?

Good one

 

[the big lebowski]

I mean I just read and listened to the judge in the Bruce Lerhman defamation case say that he was a liar, Britney Higgins was a liar. And several other people. Not even embellished, flat out lying. Brittany Higgins in a “concerning, calculated manner”

 

[rjslcM]

Well yeah, but anyone with half a brain cell and basic understanding of this country's past would see that it is highly racially insensitive for white people to question the ability of black people to raise their own children.

I mean shit surely they knew this was a very delicate matter?

Besides, next time a person at one's workplace announces they are pregnant, I challenge anyone in this thread to go up and discuss with them the career implications it might have. Bonus points if you are their manager! Go on, give it a go!

This

 

[Rob R]

Peterson being delisted came as a shock to me and I'm sure I'm not the only Hawthorn supporter who would have thought that at the time. Thought he had plenty to offer.

I remember being surprised too then the stories came about missing training and disappearing which was a repeat of his Richmond days. He sounds like a pretty decent guy who needed help back then and after footy was trying to give back.

Carl's new dawn

Newfound confidence has a former Hawk flying again.

www.theage.com.au

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[sr36]

Well yeah, but anyone with half a brain cell and basic understanding of this country's past would see that it is highly racially insensitive for white people to question the ability of black people to raise their own children.

I mean shit surely they knew this was a very delicate matter?

Besides, next time a person at one's workplace announces they are pregnant, I challenge anyone in this thread to go up and discuss with them the career implications it might have. Bonus points if you are their manager! Go on, give it a go!

That post lives up to your username.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That's for indirect discrimination. But yes if intention can be shown become much more serious, but the reality is it's usually very hard to establish an intention in terms of indirect discrimination.

Innocent until proven intentional then.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Firstly, anyone with any intelligence knows that you need to hear the other side of the story before forming the opinion that the defendants are guilty. They are only claims/ allegations at this stage. They have not been proven to be correct. The law is innocent until proven guilty - something that you continually have great difficulty in understanding.

Secondly, the majority of the claims are unsubstantiated. For example, the document regularly states that copies of the text messages are no longer available. A lot of conversations without witnesses, lack of supporting evidence etc. As the law is innocent until proven guilty, unsubstantiated claims like these won’t hold up in a court of law.

This is also shown in the two reports by former Justice John Middleton KC and Gordon Legal. They found:

- a startling lack of evidence to support the allegations;

- concluded that the allegation that an Indigenous player and his partner were pressured to terminate a pregnancy could not be substantiated;

- a claim that the Hawks had demanded the separation of another First Nations family for the sake of the player’s career was also considered to be lacking in evidence;

- there was no basis whatsoever to support suggestions a subculture of racism had existed at Hawthorn or that the three accused club officials had behaved in anything other than a caring way for their players; and

- no sufficient evidence to substantiate the vast majority of the claims.


Allegations need to be proven and have actual evidence before they can be believed. Again, something that you continually have great difficulty in understanding.

So, are the Aboriginal players and their families lying?

 

[South of the Yarra]

Re termination thing

The most likely factors in that was probably age and or the stability of the relationship, and not race.

Frankly I don't think anyone should have a kid unless they are in a stable committed relationship with a strategy and plan in place.

Nothing at all to do with race

At the same time I get this could have been handled poorly and come across as patriarchal and white man preaching.

Did you miss the Stolen Generation?

 

[WillHayward]

Did you miss the Stolen Generation?

?
No I didn't. Hence the need for special sensitivity and an educated approach .

Did you miss reading comprehension?

I'm saying :

1. There is a general view about family planning that a whitie can hold that is completely legitimate. It's a legitimate view to hold in its own context (white bogans having unplanned kids is a bad idea an there should be way more education on this topic)

But

2. This view needs to be adjusted when speaking with indigenous players due to historic abuses by the whitie.

The message you deliver would therefore be different based on race due to the historic abuses and rightful sensitivity held by indigenous people.

It's possible to hold both these views simultaneously and both are legitimate. The nuance is the context and the reason why it's not ok to say "same rules for everyone".

What I'm trying to say is that I assume the defence from the Hawks staff would be "we treat everyone the same. I'd have done the same for a white player . Therefore im not racist".

I'm assuming that is their defence but I may be mistaken on this.

What I'm saying I isn't "racist" but that's not the point. The point is they should have shown more cultural sensitivity in the overall context and adjusted their messaging accordingly. It's largely and education thing. Unfortunately they didn't seem to grasp that.

 

[parano1a]

Latest news out of the report is that Clarko allegedly gave Cyril the nickname "Humphrey B Bear"...

 

[DocSholl]

Latest news out of the report is that Clarko allegedly gave Cyril the nickname "Humphrey B Bear"...

As has been explained a number of times, that is a very common nickname to give to someone who is quiet in nature.

Obviously there's a big slice of cultural insensitivity there but it would be a stretch to say that was a nickname with any racist intent (unless of course Rioli requested he stop and he didn't). It's just very clumsy.

 

[phantom13]

As has been explained a number of times, that is a very common nickname to give to someone who is quiet in nature.

Obviously there's a big slice of cultural insensitivity there but it would be a stretch to say that was a nickname with any racist intent (unless of course Rioli requested he stop and he didn't). It's just very clumsy.

Seems to me the difference between “cultural insensitivity” and “racism” might be a subjective line, dependent on the person and that maybe a person with the lived experience of a Cyril Rioli might be better placed to determine where that line should sit.

 

[DocSholl]

Seems to me the difference between “cultural insensitivity” and “racism” might be a subjective line, dependent on the person and that maybe a person with the lived experience of a Cyril Rioli might be better placed to determine where that line should sit.

Of course. It would seem the least serious of the allegations raised though, given its widespread use as a nickname and obvious meaning.

No question its an incredibly insensitive thing to call a POC.

 

[the big lebowski]

Seems to me the difference between “cultural insensitivity” and “racism” might be a subjective line, dependent on the person and that maybe a person with the lived experience of a Cyril Rioli might be better placed to determine where that line should sit.

Does Rioli decide in 2008 when he’s first called it? Or does he decide it’s racist in 2023?

I wonder if he ever brought it up with clarko in 2015 when they were fishing in Darwin. Or at the bbq clarko hosted when Rioli retired and didn’t want to go to a hawthorn function.

Is that how it works. You’re ok with it for 20 years but then you decide, actually I’m offended.

 

[the big lebowski]

No question its an incredibly insensitive thing to call a POC.

Do Aboriginal people have a Long history of being called bears? Or black
People in general? Never heard it discussed in any capacity ever.

 

[phantom13]

Does Rioli decide in 2008 when he’s first called it? Or does he decide it’s racist in 2023?

I wonder if he ever brought it up with clarko in 2015 when they were fishing in Darwin. Or at the bbq clarko hosted when Rioli retired and didn’t want to go to a hawthorn function.

Is that how it works. You’re ok with it for 20 years but then you decide, actually I’m offended.

You can’t think of a single reason he may not have felt comfortable raising it?

 

[DocSholl]

You can’t think of a single reason he may not have felt comfortable raising it?

So if Clarkson uses the nickname in its common form (someone who.doesnt speak much), and Rioli doesn't voice or show that he feels uncomforrable with it (for valid reasons), what is Clarkson guilty of here? I think you'd have a hard time pushing it from a tone-deaf thing to say to actually being racist in that scenario.

If Rioli was indeed uncomfortable, made it known and the nickname kept being used, that's an entirely different matter and is absolutely racist.

 

[yodellinhank]

So if Clarkson uses the nickname in its common form (someone who.doesnt speak much), and Rioli doesn't voice or show that he feels uncomforrable with it (for valid reasons), what is Clarkson guilty of here? I think you'd have a hard time pushing it from a tone-deaf thing to say to actually being racist in that scenario.

If Rioli was indeed uncomfortable, made it known and the nickname kept being used, that's an entirely different matter and is absolutely racist.

So what you are saying is if a player is teased about being quiet and reserved, they should be less quiet and reserved about it?

 

[the big lebowski]

So what you are saying is if a player is teased about being quiet and reserved, they should be less quiet and reserved about it?

Hey Cyril you’re the GOAT. You’re like MJ!!!!

Are you calling me black?