Hawthorn vs St Kilda Round 8 2011

[Squizz]

Jack Steven needs a run back in the 2's. Got a big future this kid but is just looking a little lost at the moment.

I'd be lost too if I was a crumbing forward and the ball came in 31 times.

Milne didn't trouble the scorers either.

Jack was one of the few to lay a tackle (6). On a day when the other blokes had the ball, the following players had 2 tackles or less - Dal, Gwilt (0), Roo (0), Baker, Milne, Polo (0), Kosi (0), Sippa, Zac, Cripps and Mini.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Agree totally with Ross Lyon's comments after the game. It was one of the most disappointing times for St Kilda, certainly since he took over in 07. I applaud his honesty and assessment of the game and team. I haven't felt that embarrassed for my side in a long time. Ross must have felt the same, you could tell by the tone of his voice. However, we the faithful, will continue to stick fat always.

We may have dominated the scoreboard in the first quarter but it was Hawthorn's loose defence that allowed us to score a few easy ones over the top. We did win the contested ball for the quarter though which is why it is so disappointing we couldnt carry on with that.

Couple of thoughts....

-Dean Polo was good early I thought, involved himself in the play and kicked a good goal. Did drop off badly like 20 other blokes but will probably get another crack next week considering David Armitage is a chance to be looked at by the MRP.

-Justin Koschitzke would have to be close to the chop. I love the big boy but I thought he struggled yesterday. That dropped regulation, uncontested mark, when we were 3 points up in the 3rd and resulted in a Hawks go just cost us so bad. I was sitting right in front of it and I just buried the head in the hands. Dan Archer was good all pre- season, give him another chance.

- Chop some of the deadwood. Steve Baker (who has been a great warrior) should get a few weeks suspension being the bad boy he is and not sure how many chances Andrew McQualter gets at selection. Nick Heyne should get a chance in that role perhaps or Nick Winmar. Not sure about the heat on Sean Dempster, he was one of our better players yestrerday and has been solid again this whole season.

- Exciting watching Arryn Siposs get onto a few touches and goals, getting a good following already! And Jamie Cripps was in good form after being subbed on. Keep giving these blokes chances and they will develop into something special. I called it last week, but Jack Steven needs a run back in the 2's. Got a big future this kid but is just looking a little lost at the moment.

I'd keep Polo in I think, you cant always learn a lot from one game like this.

Not sure how Stanley went in the VFL, but I'm not opposed to bringing him in for a few in place of Kosi.

I agree that Steven could use a refresher, bring in Smith. Cripps should play a full game next week.

Dont know enough about the last VFL game to know if any others are knocking. Heyne really needs to string a few together. If the weather was as bad as I think on Saturday and Winmar still played OK, I'd be inclined to think he should get a run at Etihad.

Time For Lynch to get a shot.

 

[Bourky23]

those tackle numbers are dead set embarrassing.

 

[gilbert the best]

would have to be worst effort for a few years, Dempster was far from the worst,slow one sided players like jones are a thing of the past and are to easy corraled. gilbert is not a team player on or off the field, often he gets in the way of a teamate who is in a better position to pick up the ball, when baker gets back from suspension he should have his farewell game and clock up 200, and play the rest of season for sandy and be able to teach the young players in the backline a few things.

 

[Bourky23]

gilbert is not a team player on or off the field.

i know we're all frustrated but that sort of crap is just uncalled for.

how the **** would you know what the playing group thinks of Gilbert?

 

[gilbert the best]

i know we're all frustrated but that sort of crap is just uncalled for.

how the **** would you know what the playing group thinks of Gilbert?

one way to find out would be to drop him to sandy and see how the team reacts, it could prove or dismiss my thought.
Unless you know something I dont.

 

[OhMyGoddard]

those tackle numbers are dead set embarrassing.

Agree.

Having said that, Hawks led to space so easily all the way up the ground. We never once gave them trouble kicking in. Our inability to man-up meant easy marks to Hawthorn, and we can't exactly tackle a bloke who has just made an uncontested mark. I think that is largely responsible for the dismal tackle numbers.

We were also smashed at hitouts. As good as the rest of McEvoy's game is, he really lacks in the hitouts to advantage, and the absence of Lenny reading opposition taps is killing us.

Not whacking McEvoy btw - he plays with a lot of heart.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

We were also smashed at hitouts. As good as the rest of McEvoy's game is, he really lacks in the hitouts to advantage, and the absence of Lenny reading opposition taps is killing us.

Not whacking McEvoy btw - he plays with a lot of heart.

He's primarily there for the hitouts though, surely, even in this day and age?
If he's lacking in that area, then I guess it needs fixing

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Armitage, Goddard, Gram, Ray, and DalSanto get as much of the ball as we'd expect from Robert Eddy ( on a good day).
How do we address this problem.... easy we get rid of Baker and Jones ( since Blake and Raph are already out of the team and Dempster actually played OK ).
Wow my eyes just rolled back so far I saw my brain.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Gameplan absolute fail.

Hawks came in at qtr time saw we we're doing the same old shit and just shut us down.

We had no forward press and just content to flood.

The long wide kick out of defence to Riewoldt at half back is a joke.

We can't take Riewoldt out of the forward 50m no matter how good he might be. Without him there isn't any pressure on the opposition backline and no target for us to kick to when we do break the zone.

Our midfield has quickly dropped from B grade to C grade.

Our forward line looks short and slow.

The structure and gameplan is up shit creek right now.

 

[cartwright]

one way to find out would be to drop him to sandy and see how the team reacts, it could prove or dismiss my thought.
Unless you know something I dont.

I don't think that would be hard to prove.

Gameplan absolute fail.

Hawks came in at qtr time saw we we're doing the same old shit and just shut us down.

We had no forward press and just content to flood.

The long wide kick out of defence to Riewoldt at half back is a joke.

We can't take Riewoldt out of the forward 50m no matter how good he might be. Without him there isn't any pressure on the opposition backline and no target for us to kick to when we do break the zone.

Our midfield has quickly dropped from B grade to C grade.

Our forward line looks short and slow.

The structure and gameplan is up shit creek right now.

not sure what the game plan was actually. Pathetic effort yesterday.

Baker has to go either way, I've loved what he's done for the saints over the years, but the end must be close.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I don't think that would be hard to prove.



not sure what the game plan was actually. Pathetic effort yesterday.

Baker has to go either way, I've loved what he's done for the saints over the years, but the end must be close.

Unless the game plan involved the Hawks running off with the ball and doing whatever they wanted , you'd have to say that either the basic premise of the gameplan itself was a fail, or it was so far beyond the players ability to perform it that it was a fail.

Based on comments by Gwilt on Saints.com, the gameplan actually involved some of our players winning contested ball, which didnt really eventuate. Silly for thinking they could do that I suppose.

 

[Plugger35]

A game plan that involves more than a couple of inside 50s a quarter would be nice. Hard to kick a winning score without them.

Siposs did well with the few opportunities our midfield gave him. With better supply he could kick some Tony Lockett style bags, seems to be a dead eye in front of goal unlike the rest of our forwards.

 

[OhMyGoddard]

There were similarities here to the Richmond game, in regard to the discrepancy between 1st and 2nd quarters.

Both games we came out to play; aggressive at the ball, playing on immediately, etc. Then, by the second quarter, not only had we let our lead slip, but we'd then go on to spend the rest of the game chasing arse.

I get nervous when we're in front, because we invariably play better if we're behind. I think Round 2 last year against North was the last spanking we handed out, but it seems we're a long way from playing with that same intensity.

 

[Up Bush]

Jeez, I didn't think Dempster was that bad. He's no superman, but what was he supposed to do on a day like this? Certainly did more than enough to keep a spot for mine.

Hear, hear. Yes his disposal is suspect at times however never gave up unlike a few of his teamates. Had a run with role on Burgoyne for nearly 3qtrs & kept hime to <6 possessions. Looked to be following him from one end of the ground to the other. Someone suggested in another post he only covered 1km. I would suggest they & some other posters take their blinkers off and actually look at the game.

 

[Papa Juggs]

We need to focus on being able to kick a winning score.

I don't care if we're letting the other team kick 30 goals in the process. We simply must learn to use the forward half of the ground.

Our players don't know how to kick goals because they're told to flood, FLOOD, FLOOD!!!

 

[Persevering Saint]

I was seriously wondering if all the players had the flu or something. Very sluggish. It seemed that every time that we kicked it in (which was very often), then we had to go to a contest, because there were a million Hawks around our players. And at the other end, the Hawks always, always, ALWAYS were able to have a few men free to take possession. It's simple - no running means no game.

Can't understand the Dempster hate - played his guts out today, and showed tremendous courage. In a game where we were pretty much done already, he charged into Franklin with no thought of himself. Played a proud game in a shameful match for the club.

What do we have to do to get a clearance. Macca and Kosi (oh, for goodness' sake, Kosi!) should be ashamed of themselves. They had the main opposition ruck out for most of the game, and they still couldn't tap to our advantage, pretty much ever. If we can't get our hands on the ball at the stoppage, we won't get anywhere.

It was simple. We'd not find anybody for an uncontested possession, so we'd kick to a contest, which we would either lose because our player couldn't take a contested mark (or uncontested mark... oh for goodness' sake, Kosi!) OR we'd get it shut down for a ball up or a throw in... which we would lose, because despite having two rucks opposed to a forward pretending to be a ruck, we couldn't win a tap to save ourselves.

Kosi MUST go. Please, Ross, enough is enough. If we start winning clearances and stoppages, then we will start to win games. If we start to get some aggressive running going, we will win games. Kosi represents the antipathy of those two things happening.

 

[dg102]

I dont think it was so much the tap work but what happened when the ball hit the ground, they absolutley smashed us in the centre clearances, clearances in general, every time there was a ruck contest and the ball would drop to the ground there was a hawthorn midfielder getting first hands on the ball, and I do mean almost every time.
This isnt something new this year, weve been really getting beaten in clearances all year.
I would say tap work to advantage has 20% to do with it and 80% is inability to win and clear the contested footy. Last 2 years we would dominate those areas of the game every week.

 

[InkerSaint]

I dont think it was so much the tap work but what happened when the ball hit the ground, they absolutley smashed us in the centre clearances, clearances in general, every time there was a ruck contest and the ball would drop to the ground there was a hawthorn midfielder getting first hands on the ball, and I do mean almost every time.
This isnt something new this year, weve been really getting beaten in clearances all year.

Nailed it dg102, both Champion Data and Pro-Stats show McEvoy won at least half of his hitouts. Smashed in the clearances as you can read from any of the reports of Ross's post-match press conference (or any stats site). We won 1 centre clearance to 3/4 time.

Anyone who complains about scoring potency or the forward line really doesn't get it, 59 inside 50s to 30 gives you stuff all chance. Oh yeah our scoring efficiency was better than Hawthorn's once inside 50, fat lot of good it could do us.

It's the classic football wisdom: the game is won and lost in the midfield. No better demonstration than yesterday.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Nailed it dg102, both Champion Data and Pro-Stats show McEvoy won at least half of his hitouts. Smashed in the clearances as you can read from any of the reports of Ross's post-match press conference (or any stats site). We won 1 centre clearance to 3/4 time.

Anyone who complains about scoring potency or the forward line really doesn't get it, 59 inside 50s to 30 gives you stuff all chance. Oh yeah our scoring efficiency was better than Hawthorn's once inside 50, fat lot of good it could do us.

It's the classic football wisdom: the game is won and lost in the midfield. No better demonstration than yesterday.

From what I'm reading here, its obviously Baker and Kosi's job to win these clearances .

 

[Papa Juggs]

Give me a break.

These days skills need to be much better.

You can't just hack it forward and expect to be rewarded unless of course your opposition all starts flooding with no run out of half back in which case you're in control.

Our forward press turns into a flood much too quickly.

We need to back it and let the players stay in place. Our backline might get bashed but this will expose the spuds that aren't winning 1on1 contests.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Give me a break.

These days skills need to be much better.

You can't just hack it forward and expect to be rewarded unless of course your opposition all starts flooding with no run out of half back in which case you're in control.

Our forward press turns into a flood much too quickly.

We need to back it and let the players stay in place. Our backline might get bashed but this will expose the spuds that aren't winning 1on1 contests.

Our skills do suck.
When we play Essendon for example, its just amazing how many long kicks to a Mark they make, which they then play on quickly. Winning the contested marks is one way to break a zone.
Its good to see some of our young players ( Steven, Sippos, Cripps ) marking srongly, because of the oldie's its really only Roo, Ray, Gilbert ,Goddard, and Fisher.

 

[HoldenMCaulfield]

Our skills do suck.
When we play Essendon for example, its just amazing how many long kicks to a Mark they make, which they then play on quickly. Winning the contested marks is one way to break a zone.
Its good to see some of our young players ( Steven, Sippos, Cripps ) marking srongly, because of the oldie's its really only Roo, Ray, Gilbert ,Goddard, and Fisher.

While I agree with your point (albeit I think the problem is mainly a lack of kicking skills), I am not sure whether Steven, Siposs and Cripps are great examples for contested marks - so far they have a combined total of one contested mark (Cripps v Adelaide) this year.

Fisher (14), McEvoy (13) and Riewoldt (10) are our three best (Ray has 5, Gilbert 8 and Goddard 1 so far) compared to Cloke (29), Sandilands (20) and Westhoff / Kennedy (19) for the AFL.

Steven, Siposs and Cripps have taken a combined total of 24 marks this year. Our best are Fisher (48), Riewoldt (47) and Gilbert (34) compared to Chaplin (56), Westhoff (55) and Hooker (53) for the AFL. Having two Port players lead this stat makes it somewhat inconclusive, I guess.

 

[mysainters]

We did OK in the clearances first quarter it was 11-9 or something.

The only shift, was the unpredictable nature of them losing their ruck, and ours contending with Roughead.

Everything changed at that point.

It will not last for the Hawks, he will quickly be sore and predictable like last time he had to ruck for a prolonged period.

However it was enough to impact this game and our result IMO.

Kosi and Ben will do better against actual ruckmen, expect Melbourne to be equally unpredictable.