Hawthorn's involvement in the drug saga?

[sydney_hawka]

Shake the tree, see who falls out. The underlying message of the press conference was "we have some information, come forward now and co-operate with the investigation, dob in your suppliers and your punishment will be less severe"

I'm not saying this is the case, and I have no idea what - if any - evidence they have. But that as what I took from it.

As I said in my original post yesterday, the investigation concluded 5 months ago. No "real" evidence of "peformance enhancing " drug taking was found in any Australian code. I stand by my assumption that the whole thing is Political, and have seen or heard absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

As I said in my original post yesterday, the investigation concluded 5 months ago. No "real" evidence of "peformance enhancing " drug taking was found in any Australian code. I stand by my assumption that the whole thing is Political, and have seen or heard absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise.

Check the link out on the last page.

As posted yesterday, the investigation is ongoing, and the full extent of the classified report is not known yet.

 

[Argy]

Check the link out on the last page.

As posted yesterday, the investigation is ongoing, and the full extent of the classified report is not known yet.

And that is precisely why the announcement was either stupid or politically motivated. It smeared all Australian professional sports people and gave the criminals a chance to cover up or leave the country.

I'm not a fan of Amanda Vanstone, but she said it better than I can...

The reputation of Australian sport, both domestically and internationally, has been comprehensively trashed. Players, coaches, administrators and health professionals are all lumped under a dark cloud. One can only hope there is some as-yet-unidentified imperative that demanded such a comprehensive do-over of just about everybody involved in sport.

...​

Organising a press conference with two federal ministers and a bevy of senior sports people added drama and the sense of an emergency. That ensured the coverage would be dramatic and sensational. Stirring the media up in this instance was like taking candy from a baby. Both ministers knew that.

The Crime Commission is apparently hamstrung in terms of being able to release names of players or clubs. Both ministers - Sport Minister Kate Lundy and Justice Minister Jason Clare - knew that, too. They understood that everyone was going to be tarred. People in sport were left with this damaging story running wild and unable to clear their names. The ministers must also have known the story would whip around the world, leaving all our sports people and our national reputation tarnished. The word reckless comes to mind.

...​

​

Presumably authorities already have all the evidence they can acquire covertly. Let's hope so because the minister has, with her show of bravado, put every drug runner on red alert. Now the crooks will be much more careful. If they can destroy evidence they will. If people need to leave the country they will have done so. Those who can will lie low for a while.

...
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/how-the-reputation-of-australian-sport-was-needlessly-trashed-20130217-2el62.html#ixzz2LCXGnLwH​

​

 

[Brishawk]

And that is precisely why the announcement was either stupid or politically motivated. It smeared all Australian professional sports people and gave the criminals a chance to cover up or leave the country.

I'm not a fan of Amanda Vanstone, but she said it better than I can...

To paraphrase the offsiders crew, no one has claimed everyone is on PEDs. I'm sure that the ACC made their announcement in consultation with law enforcement agencies. Clearly the AFL are serious enough about the accusations against Essendon that they are working on contingencies if they club is rubbed out.


People really need to distinguish between evidence and enough evidence to get a conviction. I think there is plenty of evidence recreational drugs are widely used in our society and even in the AFL. I am quite confident to make those statements. The AFL has acknowledged it and even held a conference on the issue last month. But no way known could much of what I have heard and seen be used to make a conviction.

The ACC is essentially an intelligence agency with more in common with ASIO than a police force. If I am understanding some of the statements made correctly, some of the evidence gathered is not admissible. Does that mean the problems relating to PEDs, recreational drugs and organised crime are media beat ups or political hubris? No.

What the announcement of this report has done is firmly place the spotlight on these issues and indirectly pressure sporting codes and bodies to address the issues in full public view. Can you imagine knowing that something illegal was occurring and being too scared to say anything because you feel isolated? With the issue out in the open it is a lot easier to come forward. You now know information could come from anywhere and your anonymity is much more greatly protected.

The AFL (and other codes) may have been able to continue to protect players and keep drug issues in the back ground but now that the ACC has made direct links to organised crime, the AFL must take action to protect the integrity of the game and the attractiveness of the sport to sponsors and consumers.

 

[Lord Mud of Glenferrie]

To paraphrase the offsiders crew, no one has claimed everyone is on PEDs. I'm sure that the ACC made their announcement in consultation with law enforcement agencies. Clearly the AFL are serious enough about the accusations against Essendon that they are working on contingencies if they club is rubbed out.


People really need to distinguish between evidence and enough evidence to get a conviction. I think there is plenty of evidence recreational drugs are widely used in our society and even in the AFL. I am quite confident to make those statements. The AFL has acknowledged it and even held a conference on the issue last month. But no way known could much of what I have heard and seen be used to make a conviction.

The ACC is essentially an intelligence agency with more in common with ASIO than a police force. If I am understanding some of the statements made correctly, some of the evidence gathered is not admissible. Does that mean the problems relating to PEDs, recreational drugs and organised crime are media beat ups or political hubris? No.

What the announcement of this report has done is firmly place the spotlight on these issues and indirectly pressure sporting codes and bodies to address the issues in full public view. Can you imagine knowing that something illegal was occurring and being too scared to say anything because you feel isolated? With the issue out in the open it is a lot easier to come forward. You now know information could come from anywhere and your anonymity is much more greatly protected.

The AFL (and other codes) may have been able to continue to protect players and keep drug issues in the back ground but now that the ACC has made direct links to organised crime, the AFL must take action to protect the integrity of the game and the attractiveness of the sport to sponsors and consumers.

Go away Brishawk; you're making too much sense.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

And that is precisely why the announcement was either stupid or politically motivated. It smeared all Australian professional sports people and gave the criminals a chance to cover up or leave the country.

I'm not a fan of Amanda Vanstone, but she said it better than I can...

Personally, I'm not that concerned with what people are saying about "going too early".

It's not the point I was trying to make.

I sound like a broken record, but the investigation is currently still working its way through Australian sport, and no matter how big the clatter was that they made at the presser, they did so in the belief that what they had on hand was just the tip of the ice berg, and not going to endanger the greater outcome.

 

[Argy]

To paraphrase the offsiders crew, no one has claimed everyone is on PEDs. I'm sure that the ACC made their announcement in consultation with law enforcement agencies. Clearly the AFL are serious enough about the accusations against Essendon that they are working on contingencies if they club is rubbed out.


People really need to distinguish between evidence and enough evidence to get a conviction. I think there is plenty of evidence recreational drugs are widely used in our society and even in the AFL. I am quite confident to make those statements. The AFL has acknowledged it and even held a conference on the issue last month. But no way known could much of what I have heard and seen be used to make a conviction.

The ACC is essentially an intelligence agency with more in common with ASIO than a police force. If I am understanding some of the statements made correctly, some of the evidence gathered is not admissible. Does that mean the problems relating to PEDs, recreational drugs and organised crime are media beat ups or political hubris? No.

What the announcement of this report has done is firmly place the spotlight on these issues and indirectly pressure sporting codes and bodies to address the issues in full public view. Can you imagine knowing that something illegal was occurring and being too scared to say anything because you feel isolated? With the issue out in the open it is a lot easier to come forward. You now know information could come from anywhere and your anonymity is much more greatly protected.

The AFL (and other codes) may have been able to continue to protect players and keep drug issues in the back ground but now that the ACC has made direct links to organised crime, the AFL must take action to protect the integrity of the game and the attractiveness of the sport to sponsors and consumers.

They should not have gone public the way they did.

I am a great supporter of eradicating drugs from society, but the Ministers and the Agencies presented no facts or evidence. They used smear, fear and innuendo and in the process they have harmed the reputations of many innocent people. Every person in our society has the right to presumption of innocence. The Ministers and the Agencies have turned this on their head - they have caused a situation where there is a presumption of guilt, not innocence. This is precisely the way the McCarthy witch hunts operated in the US during the cold war.

When this thing first broke I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But now we know that the investigations are "ongoing" and if any charges are to be laid it will take months!

The public announcement has had little effect other than to cause the various sporting bodies to tighten up their drug prevention regimes - something that could easily have been done by other methods. A far better way forward would have been to warn the individual codes for which they had evidence of drug taking so that they could take appropriate actions. This would have avoided the smearing of reputations and still achieved the same end.

 

[Brishawk]

They should not have gone public the way they did.

I am a great supporter of eradicating drugs from society, but the Ministers and the Agencies presented no facts or evidence. They used smear, fear and innuendo and in the process they have harmed the reputations of many innocent people. Every person in our society has the right to presumption of innocence. The Ministers and the Agencies have turned this on their head - they have caused a situation where there is a presumption of guilt, not innocence. This is precisely the way the McCarthy witch hunts operated in the US during the cold war.

When this thing first broke I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But now we know that the investigations are "ongoing" and if any charges are to be laid it will take months!

The public announcement has had little effect other than to cause the various sporting bodies to tighten up their drug prevention regimes - something that could easily have been done by other methods. A far better way forward would have been to warn the individual codes for which they had evidence of drug taking so that they could take appropriate actions. This would have avoided the smearing of reputations and still achieved the same end.

The ACC never claimed arrests would be made immediately. They ALWAYS claimed this report was the precursor to further investigations.

As for you last paragraph, are you saying the AFL have been blissfully unaware that players were using illegal drugs and were associating with organised crime figures? The AFL have known about these issues and have been reluctant to do anything. Stories surrounded Cousins and Gardiner for years before it all fell apart for Cousins. Recall the Didak incident? I have heard countless stories about players associating with shadey characters and the AFL have done nothing. I don't think it is a coincidence that Essendon came out with their sob story about maybe they accidentally cheated days before this report was released. If they knew about the ACC investigation then there is a good chance the AFL also knew which means the AFL were already doing SFA about these issues. Ditto for every other code. And that is the crux of the report. Current practices are woefully inadequate to protect against these issues and the codes are not capable of handling this themselves.

Imagine if the investigation etc. was kept secret. How long before it leaked into the public domain and questions were asked about the transparency of government and the sporting codes? It would place the whole investigation into a cloud of doubt.

As it stands, apart from a few media headlines, and a couple of people associated Essendon, no one is being singled out and smeared.

 

[Thaihawk]

Being so far away, I'm not privy to all the information, inuendos and rumors that float around in Australia. However, I did watch the Offsiders on Sunday and my understanding is that there is a lot more to be released when the full inquiry is completed. Now to me this is just the same as police say when they have an unnamed "person of interest" in an investigation.
We won't know full details until authorities can catch the big fish. Don't hold your breath as this could go on for a long time.

Let's concentrate on 2013, there have already been too many distractions to the start of what I hope will be a premiership for our club. Que sera sera.

 

[Argy]

The ACC never claimed arrests would be made immediately. They ALWAYS claimed this report was the precursor to further investigations.

As for you last paragraph, are you saying the AFL have been blissfully unaware that players were using illegal drugs and were associating with organised crime figures? The AFL have known about these issues and have been reluctant to do anything. Stories surrounded Cousins and Gardiner for years before it all fell apart for Cousins. Recall the Didak incident? I have heard countless stories about players associating with shadey characters and the AFL have done nothing. I don't think it is a coincidence that Essendon came out with their sob story about maybe they accidentally cheated days before this report was released. If they knew about the ACC investigation then there is a good chance the AFL also knew which means the AFL were already doing SFA about these issues. Ditto for every other code. And that is the crux of the report. Current practices are woefully inadequate to protect against these issues and the codes are not capable of handling this themselves.

Imagine if the investigation etc. was kept secret. How long before it leaked into the public domain and questions were asked about the transparency of government and the sporting codes? It would place the whole investigation into a cloud of doubt.

As it stands, apart from a few media headlines, and a couple of people associated Essendon, no one is being singled out and smeared.

I understand your points, but I do not want to live in a country where the presumption of innocence is reversed.

There were better ways to do this.

 

[badgrill]

And that is precisely why the announcement was either stupid or politically motivated. It smeared all Australian professional sports people and gave the criminals a chance to cover up or leave the country.

I'm not a fan of Amanda Vanstone, but she said it better than I can...

I think it says way more about the quality of our mainstream media than anything else - and what they've done in the backwash of all this hasn't done anything to sway my opinion. And Ms Vanstone talking about "taking candy from a baby", as though she's never manipulated the media in the same way? Rubbish...

 

[tommyk72]

I understand your points, but I do not want to live in a country where the presumption of innocence is reversed.

There were better ways to do this.

Care to outline your suggestions? I think they're damned if they do and damned if they don't!

 

[Brishawk]

I understand your points, but I do not want to live in a country where the presumption of innocence is reversed.

There were better ways to do this.

I think you really need to read what the report and read transcripts from ACC and Jason Clare to see what they actually claim instead of relying what is playing out in some sections of the media. In the 50s people were rounded up and put before public committees and coerced into making 'confessions' which were acted upon with wild hysteria. Names were named, people were arrested. As of now, the police have not arrested anyone. There is no public round up. There are no coerced confessions. In fact, the caution shown by authorities is the complete opposite to what happened in the USA.

 

[QuietB]

Presumptions of innocence is not a real thing is it? How is that going for Oscar Pistorius? He is sitting in a cell without a trial and noone is complaining.

At some stage the ACC had to hand over the report. There was always going to be fallout, be it now or 6 months time or whatever. To say there are no positives is incorrect. It gave the AFL the stick they wanted to move the power away from "sports scientists" back to club doctors. It has also put every club on notice to ensure that they keep their hands clean.

I would prefer that this is smacked early. The alternative is that organised crime is allowed further infiltration, sports science is allowed further off the leash, etc.

Sport might have been tarnished with the same brush right now but I prefer that to finding out that PED's are ingrained in the culture of the sports baseball style in 5 years time.

 

[Lord Mud of Glenferrie]

The ACC never claimed arrests would be made immediately. They ALWAYS claimed this report was the precursor to further investigations.

As for you last paragraph, are you saying the AFL have been blissfully unaware that players were using illegal drugs and were associating with organised crime figures? The AFL have known about these issues and have been reluctant to do anything. Stories surrounded Cousins and Gardiner for years before it all fell apart for Cousins. Recall the Didak incident? I have heard countless stories about players associating with shadey characters and the AFL have done nothing. I don't think it is a coincidence that Essendon came out with their sob story about maybe they accidentally cheated days before this report was released. If they knew about the ACC investigation then there is a good chance the AFL also knew which means the AFL were already doing SFA about these issues. Ditto for every other code. And that is the crux of the report. Current practices are woefully inadequate to protect against these issues and the codes are not capable of handling this themselves.

Imagine if the investigation etc. was kept secret. How long before it leaked into the public domain and questions were asked about the transparency of government and the sporting codes? It would place the whole investigation into a cloud of doubt.

As it stands, apart from a few media headlines, and a couple of people associated Essendon, no one is being singled out and smeared.

I told you to go away. If you keep this up some skeptics may start to believe you and that would be contrary to the the philosophy of if you tell a lie often enough and loud enough then people will believe the lie. I have never known it before where if the truth is told often enough people will believe it.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Come on folks, Demetriou will sweep this under the carpet, find a few ex players or ex administrators to blame and it will be move on.

 

[Argy]

Care to outline your suggestions? I think they're damned if they do and damned if they don't!

As I've said previously, the way they did it was way over the top. If it was just a matter of handing down a report there was no need for the Minsters to be there, nor for the bevy of leaders from the various sporting bodies who were dragged along.

You can't hold a press conference and slag every professional sportsman and woman and expect not to be held to account. If there was a need to hold a press conference it could have been kept to a much lower key.

The better way would have been to take a consultative approach with the various codes and associations - at least until charges were ready to be laid. As it is now the criminals have been given an advantage they never should have had - they can cover their tracks, muddy the waters or even escape the country.

 

[Brishawk]

You can't hold a press conference and slag every professional sportsman and woman and expect not to be held to account. If there was a need to hold a press conference it could have been kept to a much lower key.

Firstly, they didn't do that. Show me a quote or something because that is just total crap right there. Secondly, no way can you link organised crime to sport and do it low key.

 

[mainehawk]

What a thread......Fascinating reading points from all sides..... Good on you Echols for moderating....Gold Star .......I know we had a spat in the past...but geez.....your good

 

[Off The Couch]

If the press conference made a few sportsmen/women squirm and wonder if it was one of them then that's a good thing. I interpreted that conclusions had been reached, further investigations will follow and at the end of it all, players from sports will be outed. Do I care when that happens - no but I do want it to happen and not just fade into obscurity.

 

[spudmaster]

Presumptions of innocence is not a real thing is it? How is that going for Oscar Pistorius? He is sitting in a cell without a trial and noone is complaining.

Well he's not going to be standing is he...

 

[Davo23]

They should not have gone public the way they did.

I am a great supporter of eradicating drugs from society, but the Ministers and the Agencies presented no facts or evidence. They used smear, fear and innuendo and in the process they have harmed the reputations of many innocent people. Every person in our society has the right to presumption of innocence. The Ministers and the Agencies have turned this on their head - they have caused a situation where there is a presumption of guilt, not innocence. This is precisely the way the McCarthy witch hunts operated in the US during the cold war.

When this thing first broke I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But now we know that the investigations are "ongoing" and if any charges are to be laid it will take months!

The public announcement has had little effect other than to cause the various sporting bodies to tighten up their drug prevention regimes - something that could easily have been done by other methods. A far better way forward would have been to warn the individual codes for which they had evidence of drug taking so that they could take appropriate actions. This would have avoided the smearing of reputations and still achieved the same end.

Exactly.

If you've got evidence, go ahead and charge the guilty.

If you have no evidence, just shut up and go after it.

If you are a government body trying to justify 12 months investigation, millions of taxpayers dollars, and not enough evidence to issue one Summons, then call a Press Conference to announce that many sportsmen of different codes are using PED's ?

I have some experience with police cases: Press Conferences are not part of the way they operate: they simply charge those against whom there is evidence. If there is no evidence, they keep looking or close their file.

Those of you who think that there are a whole host of guilty players out there need to understand how political parties operate when they are in difficulties.

 

[QuietB]

Exactly.

If you've got evidence, go ahead and charge the guilty.

If you have no evidence, just shut up and go after it.

If you are a government body trying to justify 12 months investigation, millions of taxpayers dollars, and not enough evidence to issue one Summons, then call a Press Conference to announce that many sportsmen of different codes are using PED's ?

I have some experience with police cases: Press Conferences are not part of the way they operate: they simply charge those against whom there is evidence. If there is no evidence, they keep looking or close their file.

Those of you who think that there are a whole host of guilty players out there need to understand how political parties operate when they are in difficulties.

But it is not the ACC's role to sanction players for PED use. My reading is that the ACC undertook the investigation, found all sorts of stuff, and is now handing it over to the relevent authorities. The ACC are not going to issue sanctions to players for low level or any level PED use.

And again, what is to be gained politically by attacking the biggest sporting codes in the country. By attacking AFL, NRL, A League and Cricket you are pretty much pissing off every voter in the country except union fans who are the only ones who definately dont vote for you.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Exactly.

If you've got evidence, go ahead and charge the guilty.

If you have no evidence, just shut up and go after it.

If you are a government body trying to justify 12 months investigation, millions of taxpayers dollars, and not enough evidence to issue one Summons, then call a Press Conference to announce that many sportsmen of different codes are using PED's ?

I have some experience with police cases: Press Conferences are not part of the way they operate: they simply charge those against whom there is evidence. If there is no evidence, they keep looking or close their file.

Those of you who think that there are a whole host of guilty players out there need to understand how political parties operate when they are in difficulties.

There is plenty of understanding here of Pollies and the games they play, but to make such a big jump to concluding that this investigation is nothing more than a publicity stunt, is something else.

 

[Argy]

There is plenty of understanding here of Pollies and the games they play, but to make such a big jump to concluding that this investigation is nothing more than a publicity stunt, is something else.

No one here is saying it is a publicity stunt. Not me at least. The issue here is guilt by association. Smear, fear and innuendo are tactics that politicians use, not the police.

This is a justice issue. Very serious accusations have been made. These are criminal offences we're talking about here, not some random topic in a gossip column.

Sure, everyone here wants to eradicate drugs from sport (I certainly do), but that is no excuse for the behaviour of the politicians and the authorities who appeared along side them. As Davo23 says, press conferences are NOT the way police investigations work. They are NOT part of the judicial system.

I want the guilty to be prosecuted and punished. I DO NOT want the innocent to be burnt in the process.

Whether you guys like it or not there are far more innocent people out there than guilty. In fact, right now no one has been found guilty and everyone deserves the presumption of innocence. Like it or not, that is how our legal system works. And I prefer that standard infinitely over the presumption of guilt.