Here's a question for you Hawthorn greatest team of all backers.

[The Cryptkeeper]

If you have a tiny subset try looking for a larger one

It isn't quite that simple though, is it?

There are far too many variables. Looking at the Eagles overall record at the MCG is a waste of time as it assumes that all West Coast Eagles teams were of the same standard and their opposition of the same standard. It is safer to look at GF's (even though the sample is too small at this stage to get a decisive outcome) because in theory at least we are presented with the two best teams. And even then, it is tenuous.

I have acknowledged that the sample size is too small so I am not really sure why you are labouring the point. Certainly I don't understand how the Eagles record on the MCG during their ordinary seasons bears any relevance at all.

 

[kranky al]

It isn't quite that simple though, is it?

There are far too many variables. Looking at the Eagles overall record at the MCG is a waste of time as it assumes that all West Coast Eagles teams were of the same standard and their opposition of the same standard. It is safer to look at GF's (even though the sample is too small at this stage to get a decisive outcome) because in theory at least we are presented with the two best teams. And even then, it is tenuous.

I have acknowledged that the sample size is too small so I am not really sure why you are labouring the point. Certainly I don't understand how the Eagles record on the MCG during their ordinary seasons bears any relevance at all.

We rarely play the ground. Its a very different shape to any ground we play.

And most importantly its ****ing enormous- ask any interstate visitor to the g - when you first get there you are like FFFAAARRK - theres a bit of awe there - i try to go once a year - i still find the old hair stands up on the back of the neck. I went to the 08 granny and it was electric.

If you cant see how putting these three things together to a young team at a grand final vs a team that plays there - with a lot of them growing up going there on a regular basis- isnt an advantage ...... Compared to a team where its just another day at the office - its familiar youve been there often.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

We rarely play the ground. Its a very different shape to any ground we play.

And most importantly its ******* enormous- ask any interstate visitor to the g - when you first get there you are like FFFAAARRK - theres a bit of awe there - i try to go once a year - i still find the old hair stands up on the back of the neck. I went to the 08 granny and it was electric.

If you cant see how putting these three things together to a young team at a grand final vs a team that plays there - with a lot of them growing up going there on a regular basis- isnt an advantage ...... Compared to a team where its just another day at the office - its familiar youve been there often.

But you see, this is the problem. Has it occurred to you that your mob lost because you are a young, inexperienced team who ran into one of the all-time great sides (not having a go, the Eagles had a super year and are fun to watch) and that it had little or nothing to do with the MCG at all? Sure, you beat them in Perth a couple of weeks earlier but there wasn't nearly as much riding on that game as there was the game on 3 October. If anyting, that loss sharpened Hawthorn up for the rest of the finals as it was do or die from there on in.

Brisbane won 3 flags in a row on the same ground, all against sides that play there every other week. And even then, it wasn't an MCG team that stopped them getting their 4th flag ina row, it was a team from Port Adelaide that had little experience on the ground.

Sydney beat Hawthorn in 2012 yet were belted two years later by the same side.

The whole MCG thing is a beat up. Even if Hawthorn had some advantage, certainly it isn't a 46 point advantage, and it certainly wasn't a 10 goal advantage last year when they smacked the Swans.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Would Hawthorn have their three-peat if their grand finals weren't played at their home ground????


There already is a thread about the grand final being at a neutral venue, or who is better Brisbane, geelong, hawthorn etc, however what about this....

Hawthorns three grand final wins have come against interstate teams who have had to play on a pitch which has different dimensions to their own, a stadium where they had only played minimal times during the year, and not to mention the significant crowd advantage and influence the hawks have.

Lets look at 2013 grand final. Hawks win by 15 points. Played against a team that had barely played a game at the MCG all year, and traveled from Perth, where they played over 50% of their games on a pitch with much smaller dimensions.

2014 Grand final. Hawks win by 63 points. Annihilation, and you'd have to be stupid to say that the MCG is a 10 goal advantage for the hawks, but had the game been played in Sydney with a majority of supporters being Sydney supporters would it had been Sydney who crumbled under pressure early on, and then were forced to chase the game, or would it potentially been the Hawks who crumbled under the pressure of playing on a foreign ground, with no home crowd support??

2015 Grand Final. Hawks win by 46 points. No excuses for the Eagles here but an embarrassment really. Many fumbles, easy mistakes, made Hawthorn look like they couldn't do no wrong. However, just 3 weeks back at the Eagles home ground we saw the complete opposite occur?? Is it just a coincidence the Hawks had a bad game 3 three weeks ago, and three weeks later the Eagles just happen to have a bad game?? Or could it be similar reasons to 2014. Early on pressure of a grand final, playing on a ground which they are not used to, infront of an intimidating home crowd. Meanwhile the hawks had the advantage of playing on their home ground, infront of their home crowd, and were able to settle quicker, and hence get out to a marginal advantage and force their opponents to try and chase for the rest of the game??

Firsly before i get criticized like i said the game could have been played at Pattersons and the way the eagles played, and the way the hawks played their wouldnt have been much difference, but for all those saying Hawthorn is the greatest team of all, bar their 2013 season, they haven't been the best team throughout the home and away seasons of 2014, and 2015 yet were fortunate enough to play the grand final on their home ground, in front of their home crowd.

Had all three of these three finals been played in Perth, and Sydney would the hawks still be 3-0?

Your last sentence , the answer, when you are the best and you perform on the day that counts , and you learn from loss s' away from your "so called " home ground , oh yes, each GF has been an anti climax, the Freo and Sydney and WCE GF's were games when looked at in hindsight there was only ever one winner. That was Hawthorn. If we played those games on the moon Hawks win each time. ABSOLUTELY!!!!

What is the purpose of your question , its over man , its over . We won! NONE OF THOSE SIDES WERE GOOD ENOUGH ON THE DAY. NONE!

JUST LIKE HAWTHORN WASN'T! "on its home ground" ????? AGAINST SYDNEY IN 2012.

LIVE WITH IT BROTHER. All in all the Hawks are the best club of the modern era, your argument is silly, Hawthorn actually won against your mob at Subi in the home and away, if you go back to 1991 you may find that Hawthorn won at Subi, twice , in a final and a home and away, Hawthorn have no fear of Subi or any ground, WCE would do well to take some advice from Karl Langdon , who says you win where you play , or you lose , travel is part of the game now.
Even if the Eagles have to travel every second week, they play football on their home ground every second week , and that has to be advantageous to the Eagles home and away record, its a balance.
Now your club has won 3 flags ON THE MCG!!!!!! and played in two other , one of those from Hawthorn a comeback flogging and the other one a loss by 1 or 2 points against Sydney, then winning the next year at the MCG.

Gee is the MCG your home ground too.
try this
in 1963 then in 1975 then in 1984 and in 1985 and in 1987 and again in 2012 we lost on our home ground,hah what rubbish mate!

Your scenario doesn't wash, as much as your mate and his Tasmania rant, its just stupid.

Good luck next year brother, when you start taking over the best of an era , you too can brag about your club, but its a bloody hard road.

So be patient.

 

[HairyO]

The answer is still 'yes'. Yes we would have won the GF at any ground anywhere in the world. We came to play. After the early soft free, West Coast were never in it.

 

[Brishawk]

If you think that Hawthorn only won three flags in a row because the GF was played at the MCG you need to stop blaming the world for your own club's failings.

1. Hawthorn have won more games across the last three years than any other team.
2. Hawthorn were the first team to win an away preliminary final in Perth (2015).
3. Hawthorn have a winning record in Perth in 2013 and 2015 with an overall record of 3-2 across the three seasons.
4. Hawthorn had winning records in Sydney against the swans in 2012 and 2013.
5. If your club doesn't have the right tactics to win games of footy at the MCG then you need a new coach.
6. If your players can't adapt to playing at the MCG then you need new players.
7. The impact of ground size and dimensions is minimal if you are a great team. History demonstrates great teams can and do win anywhere under any conditions.

As for Brisbane...

1. They never finished top of the ladder so playing lots of away finals is simply a consequence of not having earned a home final and/or losing qualifying finals.
2. Yes, the grand final is at the MCG but the Lions play at the GABBA which is virtually the same size and shape: MCG - 160 x 141 v GABA - 156 x 138.
3. Lions didn't win near as many games as Hawthorn during their period of premierships.
   
4. Salary Cap and Merger benefits.

Great team no doubt but lets not doubt the benefits of having an additional 800k in salary cap which allowed them to retain players and recruit the likes of Pyke, Michael, Caracella, and B.Scott from other clubs.

 

[Bombermania]

I say yes, its not really their home ground, they don't train there, they only play home matches there.

 

[kranky al]

But you see, this is the problem. Has it occurred to you that your mob lost because you are a young, inexperienced team who ran into one of the all-time great sides (not having a go, the Eagles had a super year and are fun to watch) and that it had little or nothing to do with the MCG at all? Sure, you beat them in Perth a couple of weeks earlier but there wasn't nearly as much riding on that game as there was the game on 3 October. If anyting, that loss sharpened Hawthorn up for the rest of the finals as it was do or die from there on in.

I have said multiple times - we wouldnt have won on the moon.

We wouldnt have been beaten so badly at subi but. As i keep saying - one day an mcg tenant will beat an interstate team by a small margin - despite being underdogs. Thats when its going to look really unfair.

Brisbane won 3 flags in a row on the same ground, all against sides that play there every other week. And even then, it wasn't an MCG team that stopped them getting their 4th flag ina row, it was a team from Port Adelaide that had little experience on the ground.

Sydney beat Hawthorn in 2012 yet were belted two years later by the same side.

The whole MCG thing is a beat up. Even if Hawthorn had some advantage, certainly it isn't a 46 point advantage, and it certainly wasn't a 10 goal advantage last year when they smacked the Swans.

Brisbane beat collingwood twice - who were lucky to be there and port - who should have won but choked.

Im not disputing your last two wins - better side on the day - refer to above

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I have said multiple times - we wouldnt have won on the moon.

We wouldnt have been beaten so badly at subi but. As i keep saying - one day an mcg tenant will beat an interstate team by a small margin - despite being underdogs. Thats when its going to look really unfair.




Brisbane beat collingwood twice - who were lucky to be there and port - who should have won but choked.

Im not disputing your last two wins - better side on the day - refer to above

Not to be pedantic but Brisbane beat Essendon, who were heavy favourites and the defending champ. They then beat Collingwood twice. Collingwood was not a great team, that much is true.

Port then beat Brisbane with a young side.

 

[kranky al]

Not to be pedantic but Brisbane beat Essendon, who were heavy favourites and the defending champ. They then beat Collingwood twice. Collingwood was not a great team, that much is true.

Port then beat Brisbane with a young side.

Oops - i picked the wrong player for the port game and had to skull often.

 

[Obeanie1]

Just another reason why the Lions are the better side achieving what they did.

The fact is that on paper they are a better side as well really wins the debate.

Winning twice at Collingwoods and Essendon's home ground is just "icing on the cake" for this argument.

 

[Dinner Plate]

Salty, salty tears.

Here's a question for the poor West Coast whingers;

Without the home ground umpiring advantage that is second-to-none in the AFL, would West Coast fans at Subiaco still spit on opposition supporters?

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Just another reason why the Lions are the better side achieving what they did.

The fact is that on paper they are a better side as well really wins the debate.

Winning twice at Collingwoods and Essendon's home ground is just "icing on the cake" for this argument.

Somebody needs to explain what "on paper" means because from where any logical person sits that statement essentially means bugger all. It's no different to saying "my opinion." Only an idiot would put the words "fact" and "on paper" in the same sentence.

Brisbane never finished top and they played a pretty average Collingwood side twice. Hawthorn won more games over their three year reign, had a significantly greater percentage and won their GF's by a combined bigger margin.

Before finals this is how the two teams stack up:

Brisbane 48W 17L 1D 128.7%
Hawthorn 52W 14L 144.2%

Hawthorn scored more heavily and were significantly more frugal defensively.

Brisbane was a great side, but their invincibility is a myth. They beat Collingwood by 9 points in the 2002 GF and that Collingwood side wouldn't have been within 10 goals of the Hawthorn side that just won the premiership in my opinion.

There is no argument that can be made that the Brisbane side was any better than this Hawthorn one.

 

[MadDawg]

Just popped into this thread to see the bitter tears are still flowing freely out west.

 

[Obeanie1]

There is no argument that can be made that the Brisbane side was any better than this Hawthorn one.

Lions playing away from home won three flags playing power Vic clubs at the MCG. Hawks playing at home beat three interstate teams.

That's a compelling argument that the Lions did it harder and were a stronger side. Quite a good one actually.

Just like the Lions team is 4 times better than the Freo team that lost by 15 points to the Hawks in 2013. The Hawks of 2013 almost choked against a Freo side with no forward line who couldn't kick straight. The Lions of 2002 would have won 2013 in a canter.

Feel free to enjoy the three peat, it's a great achievement. But not as great as the Lions who had never won a flag before, won three in a row playing away from home on the oppositions home turf.

If you can't see the logic to this argument it's simply because of one eyed loyalty.

 

[Gibbke]

Lions playing away from home won three flags playing power Vic clubs at the MCG. Hawks playing at home beat three interstate teams.

That's a compelling argument that the Lions did it harder and were a stronger side. Quite a good one actually.

Just like the Lions team is 4 times better than the Freo team that lost by 15 points to the Hawks in 2013. The Hawks of 2013 almost choked against a Freo side with no forward line who couldn't kick straight. The Lions of 2002 would have won 2013 in a canter.

Feel free to enjoy the three peat, it's a great achievement. But not as great as the Lions who had never won a flag before, won three in a row playing away from home on the oppositions home turf.

If you can't see the logic to this argument it's simply because of one eyed loyalty.

There's logic, sure, but the facts don't entirely support it...

The Lions in 2001 played an Essendon team who were struggling with injury by the time they got to the GF, and were out of petrol after half time. Hawthorn nearly got them in the PF, and the on-paper gulf in quality between these two sides was certainly greater than the final margin. If you were going to knock off this team, this was the state you wanted them in. Mick Malthouse says he has a photo of the 2002-03 Collingwood GF sides permanently on his desk. Why? Because he says it shows what an otherwise ordinary group of people can do with hard work and commitment - in a recent interview he said that side wasn't great, but overachieved through its own efforts. The Lions were also extremely hard working and disciplined - and a shitloads more talented side. Additionally, by the time the Lions were finished, the interstate v Vic ledger for GF's was 7-2, both interstate losers (1991 WC and 1996 Sydney) being the working definition of GF virgins...

What gives your argument weight on the surface is Hawthorn itself, because its us, with 4 of the 6 Vic GF wins, who makes it seem like there's a Vic advantage. Again, however, the cover of the book doesn't tell the story. Gameplans were the story of the 2013 GF, and sorry, no matter how you want to dress that scoreboard up, or West Australians want to grizzle or chest beat, Hawthorn were never going to lose it and would have taken it out at Subi too. We could score, they couldn't, and that's their current ongoing problem they still haven't fixed. We keep smashing them...funny, that. The last two flags, as you've admitted, were clear cases of a better team on the day beating highly credentialled opposition...

Noone argues the quality of Brisbane or Geelong, but the interstate disadvantage argument has no validity. If the Hawks played all three games away, they would still be threepeat premiers...

 

[HairyO]

Just popped into this thread to see the bitter tears are still flowing freely out west.

The sook factor is strong. So very strong. It will fuel them through the cricket season and well in to 2016.

 

[Hawkk]

Just another reason why the Lions are the better side achieving what they did.

The fact is that on paper they are a better side as well really wins the debate.

Winning twice at Collingwoods and Essendon's home ground is just "icing on the cake" for this argument.

Except it wasn't Essendon's home ground at all...

Collingwood in 2002/03 were absolute plodders, do you think they were comparable to the Eagles of 2015?

 

[Hawkk]

Lions playing away from home won three flags playing power Vic clubs at the MCG. Hawks playing at home beat three interstate teams.

That's a compelling argument that the Lions did it harder and were a stronger side. Quite a good one actually.

Just like the Lions team is 4 times better than the Freo team that lost by 15 points to the Hawks in 2013. The Hawks of 2013 almost choked against a Freo side with no forward line who couldn't kick straight. The Lions of 2002 would have won 2013 in a canter.

Feel free to enjoy the three peat, it's a great achievement. But not as great as the Lions who had never won a flag before, won three in a row playing away from home on the oppositions home turf.

If you can't see the logic to this argument it's simply because of one eyed loyalty.

...and Hawthorn is the only Vic club to defeat three power non Vic clubs in Grand Finals

 

[MadDawg]

Lions playing away from home won three flags playing power Vic clubs at the MCG. Hawks playing at home beat three interstate teams.

That's a compelling argument that the Lions did it harder and were a stronger side. Quite a good one actually.

Just like the Lions team is 4 times better than the Freo team that lost by 15 points to the Hawks in 2013. The Hawks of 2013 almost choked against a Freo side with no forward line who couldn't kick straight. The Lions of 2002 would have won 2013 in a canter.

Feel free to enjoy the three peat, it's a great achievement. But not as great as the Lions who had never won a flag before, won three in a row playing away from home on the oppositions home turf.

If you can't see the logic to this argument it's simply because of one eyed loyalty.

Never argue with an idiot, they end up dragging you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

 

[The Gov]

Hawthorn would have won all three of their flags no matter where they were played, the mental edge they had on the day was simply earnt from playing in a lot of grand finals previously which is something that's hard to begrudge them. Games of footy are random, any team can theoretically beat any other team anywhere, and despite hawthorn and west coast having similar quality cattle (in my perhaps biased opinion) one team rocked up to play and that earnt them the win, simple.


Yes there's an advantage for Vic teams playing at the MCG but it's a small advantage and there's really nothing worth arguing about, the advantage would be bigger should the game be played in Perth or Sydney and I'm happy to stick with playing grandies in the best venue to hold them which happens to be in Melbourne.

Ideally we'd fly the MCG Magneto-style over a neutral area (like Uluru) and play it there to silence the arguments, but Melbourne's fine. It's an advantage playing more at the ground and being based in the state when playing a grand final, and hawks supporters need to admit that, but a team like hawthorn earnt matches under finals pressure at the G by qualifying for all those finals over the years. At the end of the day its just 2 teams playing footy and whoever wins wins.

 

[The Gov]

Just another reason why the Lions are the better side achieving what they did.

The fact is that on paper they are a better side as well really wins the debate.

Winning twice at Collingwoods and Essendon's home ground is just "icing on the cake" for this argument.

I dunno, arguments can be made for both sides. Due to the evolution of modern footy and the way hawthorn play I think 2015 hawks would easily account for 2002 lions, despite the lions having probably more star power in their lineup.

Hawks performances during the seasons of their premierships also suggests they are the more dominant side over their premiership period so if you want to look at it like that their achievement is stronger.

However the lions did win as interstate teams, the travel every 2 weeks for those years would have taken its toll on the players and the fact that the lions won when they needed to 3 years in a row being one of the first interstate sides (from a non footy playing state too, we're seeing how much the Queensland sides are struggling with their location now) to really stamp their mark in AFL history might make the achievement stand out more if you look at it that way.

If the Hawks get the four-peat though there's no comparison

 

[kidkenobi]

But you see, this is the problem. Has it occurred to you that your mob lost because you are a young, inexperienced team who ran into one of the all-time great sides (not having a go, the Eagles had a super year and are fun to watch) and that it had little or nothing to do with the MCG at all? Sure, you beat them in Perth a couple of weeks earlier but there wasn't nearly as much riding on that game as there was the game on 3 October. If anyting, that loss sharpened Hawthorn up for the rest of the finals as it was do or die from there on in.

Brisbane won 3 flags in a row on the same ground, all against sides that play there every other week. And even then, it wasn't an MCG team that stopped them getting their 4th flag ina row, it was a team from Port Adelaide that had little experience on the ground.

Sydney beat Hawthorn in 2012 yet were belted two years later by the same side.

The whole MCG thing is a beat up. Even if Hawthorn had some advantage, certainly it isn't a 46 point advantage, and it certainly wasn't a 10 goal advantage last year when they smacked the Swans.

The problem with this reasoning is that it doesn't work that way. You can't say 'the way Hawthorn played that day we would have beat them anywhere' because you only played that game at the G, so that is the only point of reference you have. You can't transpose that same game onto another ground. Each game exists uniquely and independently of itself. If the game had been elsewhere there's a chance it could have been completely different, like the way the QF and the GF contrasted despite being between the same teams. It could also be the same, the point is, you can't really compare.

As for the examples you gave, they're just occurrences you're deliberately interpreting in a specific way to support your point but there's no actual real correlation with what your saying. If a non-MCG team beats a MCG team at the G, it doesn't prove that there is no home ground advantage, it just means the non-MCG team was good enough to overcome that disadvantage and still win.

There's a chance Hawthorn could have won all their flags regardless of where they were played, but you can't say for sure. All we know for certain is they were good enough to win 3 flags on their home ground against interstate teams. The only relevance of discussing that point is not to denigrate Hawthorns achievements, but to highlight why maybe Brisbanes 3peat was better

 

[JoondalupJ]

I have said multiple times - we wouldnt have won on the moon.

We wouldnt have been beaten so badly at subi but. As i keep saying - one day an mcg tenant will beat an interstate team by a small margin - despite being underdogs. Thats when its going to look really unfair.




Brisbane beat collingwood twice - who were lucky to be there and port - who should have won but choked.

Im not disputing your last two wins - better side on the day - refer to above

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "SHOULD HAVE WON" Only winning!

PS when kicking for goal on the Moon you can actually take a shot from full back!!!!!!

I bet Clarko 's got the Hawks practising that already.

And he will also have them closely examining and getting used to the idea of playing on the big new stadium at the Burswood swamp! hehe!

Hawks are always prepared!

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Lions playing away from home won three flags playing power Vic clubs at the MCG. Hawks playing at home beat three interstate teams.

That's a compelling argument that the Lions did it harder and were a stronger side. Quite a good one actually.

Just like the Lions team is 4 times better than the Freo team that lost by 15 points to the Hawks in 2013. The Hawks of 2013 almost choked against a Freo side with no forward line who couldn't kick straight. The Lions of 2002 would have won 2013 in a canter.

Feel free to enjoy the three peat, it's a great achievement. But not as great as the Lions who had never won a flag before, won three in a row playing away from home on the oppositions home turf.

If you can't see the logic to this argument it's simply because of one eyed loyalty.

Not one fact and not one piece of real data.

And you expect to be taken seriously?

Wow.