Here's a question for you Hawthorn greatest team of all backers.

[dean31]

All you need to do is beat him with facts and he stops replying, done as such a few times these past couple days.
He tries all the cliche type begrudges like the Hawks dominating in free agency etc.
He tried to argue that the Lions had better opposition.
All 3 of the Hawks GF opponents had not more than 5 losses for the season and significantly higher percentage compared with the
Pies who went 13/9 and 15/7 with woeful percentage. Only Essendon 2001 compared with 1 of the Hawks opponents as they also lost only 5 games for the season but again significantly lower percentage compared with the Swans and Eagles.
He's just a seriously buttt hurt Eagles supporter, desperately trying to find a way to get over his disappointment of the Hawks streaking out to 5 AFL premierships and a 2 nil record against the Eagles.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

There's a chance Hawthorn could have won all their flags regardless of where they were played, but you can't say for sure. All we know for certain is they were good enough to win 3 flags on their home ground against interstate teams. The only relevance of discussing that point is not to denigrate Hawthorns achievements, but to highlight why maybe Brisbanes 3peat was better

As has been pointed out above many times. Brisbane HAD to travel because largely they were the lowest ranked team, aside from the odd game due to the silly AFL/MCG contract.

Any and all available evidence whether it is ladder position, win/loss ratios, percentages, for and against, grand final winning margins CLEARLY AND DECISIVELY tells you that Hawthorn was a more dominant and therefore better team. FFS there is 4 wins and a whopping 16% difference between the two teams over their respective eras of dominance.

The only two points that those siding with Brisbane seem to be able to make are either unquantifiable ("on paper" Brisbane were better...the older we get the better we were argument is essentially all this is) or of Brisbane's own doing (interstate travel in finals) because they were often not the top ranked team going in.

The fact that Brisbane had to do it on the MCG is almost an irrelevance. It is a two hour flight plus a 30 minute bus ride. They fly down on Monday and have a full 6 days to prepare. There is no difference in time-zone and there is no jet-lag factor. Peope who claim that any of this makes a significant difference are drawing a very long bow.

 

[Obeanie1]

Not one fact and not one piece of real data.

And you expect to be taken seriously?

Wow.

MCG is the Hawks home ground?

And it wasn't the Lions home ground?

They aren't facts? Seriously?

How did the Hawks go playing a final away from the MCG? Not so good. FACT!

Another fact is Hawthorn supporters are one eyed and simply ignore logic and facts when it doesn't suit them.

Was the Lions in their three peat forward line better than Freo's? Fact or fiction?

WOW yourself!

 

[Back One Out]

How did the Hawks go playing a final away from the MCG? Not so good. FACT!

FALSE!

Hawthorn travelled to Perth and defeated the minor premiers by 5 goals in the Preliminary Final.

Please list all the other times the minor premier has been defeated by a travelling away team in a Prelim.

 

[Gibbke]

How did the Hawks go playing a final away from the MCG? Not so good. FACT!

I seem to recall us crunching the minor premiers in a PF recently...

 

[beta_condition]

MCG is the Hawks home ground?


How did the Hawks go playing a final away from the MCG? Not so good. FACT!


Was the Lions in their three peat forward line better than Freo's? Fact or fiction?

Actually it went pretty well just ask Fremantle

who doesn't have a better forward line than Fremantle?

Hawthorn > Brisbane forward line

 

[Sidebottom2Beams]

I don't think the MCG caused Shuey to turn into KB and Darling to choke it up..

In pivotal moments they cost you guys the game not the ground.

Do I think this Hawthorn team would beat Geelong when they were at their peak no.

 

[Mitchell19]

I don't think the MCG caused Shuey to turn into KB and Darling to choke it up..

In pivotal moments they cost you guys the game not the ground.

Do I think this Hawthorn team would beat Geelong when they were at their peak no.

Except in '08 of course when in the GF they did.

 

[Armchair Critic]

I don't even get how the greatest team of all time argument turns into an argument that uses multiple years as a reference. Surely it has to be a single year.

 

[Gibbke]

I think it has to! A team can have an exceptional year with everything going the right way and a bit of bad luck for their opposition aiding the cause, but the definitive proof that a particular team is great is in the way it can front up for an extended period of time, with new challenges for each season, and still prevail or contend...

That's clearly all three of the commonly mentioned teams here, but it doesn't preclude the merits of others. Sydney have had a stellar run this century, and could easily be have been sitting on four flags in ten years. The Dogs, Saints and Magpies have all had eras of exceptional footy spread out over a few years...

We're talking teams here, not seasons, and you can't fit all of the tests necessary to rank the best in a single season...

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

MCG is the Hawks home ground?

And it wasn't the Lions home ground?

They aren't facts? Seriously?

How did the Hawks go playing a final away from the MCG? Not so good. FACT!

Another fact is Hawthorn supporters are one eyed and simply ignore logic and facts when it doesn't suit them.

Was the Lions in their three peat forward line better than Freo's? Fact or fiction?

WOW yourself!

We won one and lost one in Perth. We belted the minor premiers when it counted the most. And then we belted your sorry mob who couldn't cope with the heat in the kitchen. BTW, has anybody seen the allegedly great NicNat since the GF...because we sure as hell couldn't find him at the home of football on October 3?

But keep pushing that "on paper" argument Nimrod. It's a fools' position to take.

 

[demondavey]

Melbourne of the 1950's were one of the greatest teams of all time, if not THE greatest…

Premiers: 1955, 1956, 1957, 1959, 1960
Runner up: 1954, 1958

Of course, they didn't enjoy a home ground advantage with all finals played at the MCG in those days.
And those awesome Richmond teams coached by Tommy Hafey… they didn't have a home ground advantage either.
Basically, any Grand Final that Hawthorn wins at the MCG doesn't count because it's too much of advantage to play on our home ground.


Logically it also follows that any premiership won by Sydney, West Coast, Adelaide, Port and Brisbane must also have an asterisk placed alongside if they had the luxury of playing home finals in the lead up. Without those home ground advantages, they might not have even qualified for the Grand Final.

That is right. So all qualifying finals and preliminary finals can be excluded as non Victorian sides played them at non Victorian venues. Isn't it funny that in the Brisbane Lions consecutive premierships they defeated arguably the best team of the last 3 years in Essendon, and then Collingwood twice who have a regular home ground advantage at the MCG? And it is funny how Adelaide in 1998 beat the Kangaroos who were close to peaking at the MCG. Sydney in 2012 defeated Hawthorn at the MCG in 2012, but I guess that according to non Victorian fans was just 'luck', not because Sydney were a better side on the day or anything.

West Coast in the GF played like a pack of spineless skirts in the biggest outing of the year, no ticker, no effort, completely blindsided by the occasion, and no leadership. Go back to era of 91-94 when Worsfold was Captain and have a look at how tough those Eagles were to win 2 premierships in 3 years. Hawthorn were great, but West Coast were equally as pathetic, they didn't turn up and quite frankly, didn't even look like they wanted to win.

 

[demondavey]

I agree 100% that hawthorn would have won those last two if they were played anywhere ok.

I think most serious people would - what bothers interstate fans more is that one day there will be a close tussle - and homeground will be enought to get a team over the line.

Basing a theory on a tiny subset of results is fundamentally flawed. Look at the eagles overall record at the g and its woeful. We historically havnt played that ground well.

We have won two flags there against vic teams - geelong - in years that we were so dominant that the result was a lot more likely than not.

A close tussle whereby a home ground advantage gets a Victorian team over the line? Where were you in 2012? That was a 'close tussle' and the MCG provided no advantages to Hawthorn. Point fail.

1997 Grand Final. Half time, St Kilda led by 13. 3 Quarter time Adelaide led by 10. Adelaide took it away in the final quarter because St Kilda failed to turn it on when it mattered. Point fail.

1998 Grand Final. North Melbourne led by 24 at half time. 3 Quarter time, Adelaide led by 2. Adelaide took it away in the final quarter because North failed to turn up. Point fail.

Eagles overall record at the MCG during home and away games? Irrelevant. It isn't finals, it does not matter. Point fail.

Eagles have won 2 flags there against Victorian sides. So you can play and win there! You just contradicted yourself about not having a good record at the MCG.

You have also stated, 'In years you were more dominant', so this year if West Coast was a better side and more experienced then they probably would have been able to beat anyone they played in the GF.

 

[demondavey]

To all non Victorian fans complaining about the home ground advantage Victorian teams have, well there is only so many ways you can try and justify the knife you have brought to a gun fight. Good teams win when it matters, Victorian sides have turned up and failed when they were favourites. Geelong in 2008 is a great example. Interstate sides have upset Victorian sides when it matters, both Adelaide victories are great examples along with Sydney in 2012, I'd say Brisbane in 2001 as well. There is no room to move here, you just need to suck it up that the MCG provides no advantage, and that if a team is good enough, they will get over the line. Simple. It really is. If it makes you feel any better, Hawthorn of 13-15 are one of the best sides you'll see and would have beaten anyone at the MCG in the Grand Final. Anyone. If you look at the GF in 2013 it should provide you with some comfort that there is no huge advantage, Fremantle got within 15 points and were only 10 points down at 3 quarter time. They also had the exact same scoring opportunities that Hawthorn did (22 shots at goal a piece), but failed in their ability to hit the scoreboard when it mattered. From a scoring perspective, arguably the most important factor in a game of football, they equaled Hawthorn.

At quarter time in the 2012 GF Hawthorn were 19 points in front! They only kicked 1 point in the second quarter, where Sydney kicked 6 goals straight! Hawthorn kicked 2.5 in the final quarter to Sydney's 4.2. Hawthorn had 5 more scoring shots that day. I can categorically say that in the 2012 and 2013 GF that the sides that lost had their opportunities. There was no advantage that day, and the better side won because they kicked straight.

 

[demondavey]

I seem to recall us crunching the minor premiers in a PF recently...

Do these guys even understand the tripe dripping out of their mouths? Apparently the qualifying final in which you lost is more important than the 3 finals you won since then.

 

[demondavey]

Where is KrankyAl?

 

[demondavey]

I don't think we will see another non Victorian post here, nor should we

 

[SeaEagle]

I don't think we will see another non Victorian post here, nor should we

I'll have a go.
Whole thread is full of Spin Doctors supporting teams that are MCG tenants trying to tell us that there is absolutely no advantage to playing on your home ground. Please!
For the record , no I don't think my team would have beaten Hawthorn in this years GF where ever it was played. Experience in Grand Finals and big games counts for a lot. But I would never say we wouldn't have been a far better chance had the game been played at Subiaco.

You see I'm quite happy to admit that Subiaco oval is an advantage to us!
Not that hard is it!

As I have already said, there would be no ifs, buts, maybes or any of these threads on Grand Final results if the higher ranked team play the GF at their home ground. Surely they earn that.

The integrity of the finals series was being compromised years ago with the stupid rule of having to play games in Victoria each week. The same arguments existed until the AFL made the change. This was always going to be the next argument and will continue until a change is made.

Ground capacity or how much money can be made should not influence the biggest game of the year unless you want these if and buts on who wins to continue. If Geelong were to finish top next year and West Coast played them at Kardinya Park, fair enough. Sell the tickets half and half to supporters, Win or loose, no complaints.

If as I have said previously, if A League, Cricket and Rugby can organise Finals to be played at higher ranked teams grounds in a week regardless of ground capacity or how much money can be made, so can the AFL. But only if they want the biggest game of the year to be seen as a fair result for all teams concerned.

I don't think we should see any supporters of MCG tenants trying to tell us there is no advantage to playing the GF on their home ground. Nor should we!

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

I'll have a go.

I don't think we should see any supporters of MCG tenants trying to tell us there is no advantage to playing the GF on their home ground. Nor should we!

And I think people like you should take your bat and ball and go home. You don't like it? Then either build a stadium that houses 100,000+ people and stake a claim to the GF, or relocate to Melbourne and play your home games at the MCG. This is yet another one of many ungracious threads that Hawks fans have had to endure with dickheads trying to discredit our flag. It's a sad forum sometimes. Hawthorn have just won 3 flags in a row. How come the other MCG tenants haven't done that?

The "home ground advantage" didn't seem to help us much in the 2012 GF against Sydney. Why? Because Sydney played better than us on the day, that's why. THAT'S how you win a flag, you get out there on GF day and just do it. The best team will win the GF on the beach.

If you recall, the Hawks had a home ground at Waverley, but the AFL decided we should move. Clubs migrated from MCG to new stadium Docklands which meant the Hawks had to find a new home at the MCG. We also play a lot of our home games in Tasmania, but people tend to forget that.

There once was a time when people thought flags were won by the better team, but that seems to be the very last thing you ever hear these days. For what it's worth, I think West Coast could win the flag next year, but if playing at the MCG is too much them to handle, then maybe they are wasting their time.

I don't think we can do 4 flags in a row, and if we don't, I'm going to in here sprouting off all sorts of garbage as to why the premier didn't deserve to win the flag. Seems to be all the rage these days.

 

[kidkenobi]

To all non Victorian fans complaining about the home ground advantage Victorian teams have, well there is only so many ways you can try and justify the knife you have brought to a gun fight. Good teams win when it matters, Victorian sides have turned up and failed when they were favourites. Geelong in 2008 is a great example. Interstate sides have upset Victorian sides when it matters, both Adelaide victories are great examples along with Sydney in 2012, I'd say Brisbane in 2001 as well. There is no room to move here, you just need to suck it up that the MCG provides no advantage, and that if a team is good enough, they will get over the line. Simple. It really is. If it makes you feel any better, Hawthorn of 13-15 are one of the best sides you'll see and would have beaten anyone at the MCG in the Grand Final. Anyone. If you look at the GF in 2013 it should provide you with some comfort that there is no huge advantage, Fremantle got within 15 points and were only 10 points down at 3 quarter time. They also had the exact same scoring opportunities that Hawthorn did (22 shots at goal a piece), but failed in their ability to hit the scoreboard when it mattered. From a scoring perspective, arguably the most important factor in a game of football, they equaled Hawthorn.

At quarter time in the 2012 GF Hawthorn were 19 points in front! They only kicked 1 point in the second quarter, where Sydney kicked 6 goals straight! Hawthorn kicked 2.5 in the final quarter to Sydney's 4.2. Hawthorn had 5 more scoring shots that day. I can categorically say that in the 2012 and 2013 GF that the sides that lost had their opportunities. There was no advantage that day, and the better side won because they kicked straight.

You managed to write all that and not make a single relevant point. Hawk fans are conveniently distracting themselves with the 'if you're good enough you'll win' argument whilst ignoring the basic concept that playing at your home ground is nevertheless still an advantage.

It doesn't matter that other interstate teams have won there before. It's like saying one guy gets into a fight with two other guys. Even if the one guy is good enough to beat them, there was still an advantage to the two guys.

Hawthorn fans are essentially arguing that home ground advantage doesn't exist.

I wonder what happened to it?

 

[Farang83150]

a pitch

WTF...a "PITCH"

 

[Farang83150]

Had an EPL follower telling me that there should be no grand final or finals series...each team plays twice and winner is the team on top after the 34 weeks would be a fair competition.

The EPL follower is a DH

 

[Farang83150]

Not sure, but I thought some one on SEN mentioned that the Hawks had played the G 23 times and in the same period WC had played there once, i think this was after or just before WC defeated them in the qualy.

 

[demondavey]

You managed to write all that and not make a single relevant point. Hawk fans are conveniently distracting themselves with the 'if you're good enough you'll win' argument whilst ignoring the basic concept that playing at your home ground is nevertheless still an advantage.

It doesn't matter that other interstate teams have won there before. It's like saying one guy gets into a fight with two other guys. Even if the one guy is good enough to beat them, there was still an advantage to the two guys.

Hawthorn fans are essentially arguing that home ground advantage doesn't exist.

I wonder what happened to it?

It doesn't exist

 

[demondavey]

Not sure, but I thought some one on SEN mentioned that the Hawks had played the G 23 times and in the same period WC had played there once, i think this was after or just before WC defeated them in the qualy.

What's your point?