Hey true blue, is it me and you? Citizenship and the Constitution.

[HairyO]

"Any person who is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives."


It's an open and shut case. If the constitution said simply having allegiance or obedience to a foreign power, there might be some wriggle room, but the fact it plainly states 'OR being a citizen of a foreign power' it's a foregone conclusion.

It's not a matter or being obedient AND being a citizen to a foreign power, it is enough to be disqualified so long as only one of those circumstances are proven true.

If its an open and shut case, what happens if China decides to just make Bill Shorten and Malcolm Turnbull Chinese citizens?

The only sensible finding of the High Court will be if you were actually born in another country, have ever had a passport or other proof of citizenship or knowingly applied for citizenship (as opposed to it being done on your behalf). Because Im pretty sure at this point in time Barnaby is not on any NZ electoral roll or citizen list, would not have an NZ tax file number or health care card or anything else. He just has the ability to exercise his right to be a New Zealand citizen if he chooses.

Not sure what this means for the Greens who quit, as I dont recall their reason, but the guy who apparently is Italian because his mother signed him up even though he didnt know and was an adult at the time would also not fall short.

 

[HairyO]

Constitutional problem, can only be fixed by referendum.

Just need a High Court to find implied reasons. No referendum required them.

 

[Forward Press]

You make a valid point HairyO but at the moment that is not the situation the High Court are dealing with and ruling on.

Section 44 quite plainly disqualifies Joyce from what I can tell - and my understanding is that the NZ citizenship by descent is automatic and not merely the ability to exercise his right to be an NZ citizen if he chooses (someone can correct me here if my understanding is incorrect).

Maybe the Solicitor General is going down your route (ie this allows foreign countries to simply name MPs to disqualify them) but like I said, that's not what we have here.

 

[Pie eyed]

Se ya Barnaby.
i hope we send him a bill for the money he took under false pretense.
Why the **** does Aus Parliament have so many asylum seekers in it?
Why isn't Barnaby locked up on Manus....Cue jumper.

 

[Sainteric]

If its an open and shut case, what happens if China decides to just make Bill Shorten and Malcolm Turnbull Chinese citizens?

The only sensible finding of the High Court will be if you were actually born in another country, have ever had a passport or other proof of citizenship or knowingly applied for citizenship (as opposed to it being done on your behalf). Because Im pretty sure at this point in time Barnaby is not on any NZ electoral roll or citizen list, would not have an NZ tax file number or health care card or anything else. He just has the ability to exercise his right to be a New Zealand citizen if he chooses.

Not sure what this means for the Greens who quit, as I dont recall their reason, but the guy who apparently is Italian because his mother signed him up even though he didnt know and was an adult at the time would also not fall short.

No what the legislation says and the rules the high court has made are different. You have to make all reasonable attempts to denounce citizenship. If for instance Iran keeps Sam D as a citizen it makes no difference he is still eligible to sit in parliament.

 

[Bradesmaen]

If its an open and shut case, what happens if China decides to just make Bill Shorten and Malcolm Turnbull Chinese citizens?

As has been stated many times, the High court would throw it out. You know this, stop posting ridiculous statements.

 

[HairyO]

As has been stated many times, the High court would throw it out. You know this, stop posting ridiculous statements.

Why would they? The Constitution is specific apparently. And could only be changed by Referendum.

So the High Court would be re-writing the Constitution to their opinion. And yes, they would absolutely do this. Much like they will most likely rule as I said in my post.

We will end up with a definition of citizenship as something sought or attained at birth in that country.

There was a period of time that Ireland granted citizenship to anyone who had an Irish grandparent. Not even parent. I bet if we go back through Australian political history we will find dozens or even hundreds of politicians over the years who would have failed the explicit reading of this Section.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Why would they? The Constitution is specific apparently. And could only be changed by Referendum.

So the High Court would be re-writing the Constitution to their opinion. And yes, they would absolutely do this. Much like they will most likely rule as I said in my post.

We will end up with a definition of citizenship as something sought or attained at birth in that country.

There was a period of time that Ireland granted citizenship to anyone who had an Irish grandparent. Not even parent. I bet if we go back through Australian political history we will find dozens or even hundreds of politicians over the years who would have failed the explicit reading of this Section.

Because the High Court is not stupid and they are the ones who interpret the constitution. If a Foreign power makes citizens of people who have no direct relation to that country, just randomly and without their knowledge then it would be thrown out as they can't possibly be responsible. It is different in the case of Barnaby who knew his dad was born in the NZ.

Also, do you know what the High Court actually does? It's like you've never heard of them til now.

 

[HairyO]

Because the High Court is not stupid and they are the ones who interpret the constitution. If a Foreign power makes citizens of people who have no direct relation to that country, just randomly and without their knowledge then it would be thrown out as they can't possibly be responsible.

Like Barnaby? And the Liberal? And possibly both the Greens? And who knows how many others now and in the past?

 

[Illinois Nazi]

But you would/should know where she was born and if it affects your position in Parliament. Or at least someone would make you aware

Yes, until recently I thought that her place of birth would not affect my Australian-ness in any way whatsoever. Now I'm not so sure.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Like Barnaby? And the Liberal? And possibly both the Greens? And who knows how many others now and in the past?

You didn't quote my whole post and it had the explanation in there. Stop being a fool.

 

[Sainteric]

Why would they? The Constitution is specific apparently. And could only be changed by Referendum.

So the High Court would be re-writing the Constitution to their opinion. And yes, they would absolutely do this. Much like they will most likely rule as I said in my post.

We will end up with a definition of citizenship as something sought or attained at birth in that country.

There was a period of time that Ireland granted citizenship to anyone who had an Irish grandparent. Not even parent. I bet if we go back through Australian political history we will find dozens or even hundreds of politicians over the years who would have failed the explicit reading of this Section.

One of the main purpose of the high court is to interpret the constitution. Sec 44 say allengence to foreign power for nearly half of that time meant british commonwealth

 

[AM]

Because the High Court is not stupid and they are the ones who interpret the constitution. If a Foreign power makes citizens of people who have no direct relation to that country, just randomly and without their knowledge then it would be thrown out as they can't possibly be responsible. It is different in the case of Barnaby who knew his dad was born in the NZ.

Also, do you know what the High Court actually does? It's like you've never heard of them til now.

It's really a question as to whether he took all reasonable steps to check his citizenship and then, if shown to apply, abandon it.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

No, you wouldn't as you were born in a separate country. It's clear on the UK citizenship applications that you'd have to be born in the UK/to a UK citizen who was living in the UK at the time. Aka if you were born while your mother was on holiday. You can however apply for citizenship/ancestry visa.

Not true. If your father was born in the UK you are eligible for UK citizenship. Used to be that you were ineligible if your UK parent was on your maternal side, however, I believe that has changed slightly. Now you are eligible if your mother is a British subject and you were born after a certain year (mid-late 80s, forget which year).

I mean my mum was born in England in 1943 and came here in 1946 - if I was in Parliament would I suddenly find out that I am also a UK citizen?

If it had been your father rather than your mother, then possibly 'yes'.

 

[Pie eyed]

Is this the end of the Coalition?

 

[Bradesmaen]

Not true. If your father was born in the UK you are eligible for UK citizenship. Used to be that you were not ineligible if your UK parent was on your maternal side, however, I believe that has changed slightly. Now you are eligible if your mother is a British subject and you were born after a certain year (mid-late 80s, forget which year).


If it had been your father rather than your mother, then possibly 'yes'.

That was my point. You're not given it, you're eligible to obtain it.

 

[RustyCage]

Something for Barnaby to drown his sorrows with tonight

 

[Nankervis brothers]

That was my point. You're not given it, you're eligible to obtain it.

Oh, okay, I missed your point

 

[Nankervis brothers]

I don't agree with the dual citizen rule, but if the GRN and LIB senator have to go, then I don't see how Joyce's fate can be any different.

The LIB's decision to put the boot in to the GRN's on this issue was always going to come back to bite them.

Whatever the wash-up, we probably need to re-address the dual citizen issue for the future.

 

[sherb]

Seems reasonable.

http://chaser.com.au/news/pistol-and-boo-call-for-humane-execution-of-barnaby-joyce/

 

[Crankyhawk]

Are some bills illegally passed then?

No, I think the phil Cleary precedent means that the laws passed stand as if Barnaby (or the others) were eligible.

 

[Crankyhawk]

This country is a farce.

The worst part of this entire episode is the gloating article on the Fairfax websites "IT WAS ME!! LOOK AT MY EMAIL! I DID IT! IT WAS ME!!". Is that journalist a child?

Canberra has descended into pathetic student union level politics getting covered by student union newspaper quality journalism.
No wonder they're debating SSM.

I'm no Barnaby fan and all parties are impacted by this. The problem is the rules. They're stupid. Change them and get on with governing the country like grown ups..

You shouldn't be surprised that Canberra = student union, that's where most of them start.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

The difference between this and Dudlum / Waters cases is that Joyce was actually born in Australia.

This fact should see him be able to continue on.

I thought the difference was all the sheep puns at his expense.

 

[funk44]

Is this the end of the Coalition?

I doubt it. As our lord and savior Antony Green pointed out Baa-naby need only renouce his NZ citizenship and can run in the New England by-election which is currently a safe National seat. What would make it interesting is if Tony Windsor runs again

 

[tandino]

No, you wouldn't as you were born in a separate country. It's clear on the UK citizenship applications that you'd have to be born in the UK/to a UK citizen who was living in the UK at the time. Aka if you were born while your mother was on holiday. You can however apply for citizenship/ancestry visa.

Actually that's not entirely correct. Australian-born children of British citizens are themselves British by descent, from birth. No application necessary. as per the UK Home Office.