Analysis If Dustin Martin wins a 4th Norm Smith medal and premiership will he be regarded as the greatest player of all time?

[haveago]

Dusty certainly has a strong case to be greatest finals player ever no doubt.

Best player ever ?.........NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Best kick ever ?......... Right up there with Quinlan, Jarman and Fevola that I have seen.

 

[Fadge]

He's had a good start to the season and isn't a million miles off Ablett Junior in his last season as a 36 year old. If you can play to a decent level for 16 odd years it's a feather in the cap. Obviously 19 seasons like Ablett is ridiculous (Pendles in his 18th season is still bloody good too) but it'd still be impressive if Dusty stays around this level for 3 more years which would get him to the 16 mark.

Are you giving Martin a Mulligan for 2021 and 2022, when he barely played, and when he did, he was barely noticeable?

 

[Mr Meow]

Are you giving Martin a Mulligan for 2021 and 2022, when he barely played, and when he did, he was barely noticeable?

Yeah why not. He didn't do much before 2016 either.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Are you giving Martin a Mulligan for 2021 and 2022, when he barely played, and when he did, he was barely noticeable?

In 2021 Martin played 14 full games. Was injured halfway through R6 v Melbourne and R18 v Lions which ended his season.

In his 14 completed games of 2021:
Average disposals: 24.2
Goals: 1.29
Goal assists: 1.0

So 2021 was hardly needing a mulligan. He was putting together a terrific season before getting injured.

2022 was a shambles due to mental health and his hamstring injury. (He still averaged 18 touches and 1.3 goals per game in the 9 games he did play)

If we review Martin’s 28 games across 2021-23 v DeGoey’s 43 games across 2021-23 (I haven’t removed any games when injured during game etc…):

Martin v DeGoey

Disposals: 20.96 v 21.12
Goals: 1.21 v 1.07
GA’s: 0.79 v 0.60
Tackles: 1.93 v 2.72
I50’s: 4.93 v 4.09
CL: 3.14 v 4.19

So in his very worst period Martin’s performances stack up comparably to DeGoey’s best seasons at his peak age. I know DeGoey is not in GOAT discussions, but it’s pretty amazing Martin at his very worst has been comparable to DeGoey at his best.



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[Fadge]

In 2021 Martin played 14 full games. Was injured halfway through R6 v Melbourne and R18 v Lions which ended his season.

In his 14 completed games of 2021:
Average disposals: 24.2
Goals: 1.29
Goal assists: 1.0

So 2021 was hardly needing a mulligan. He was putting together a terrific season before getting injured.

2022 was a shambles due to mental health and his hamstring injury. (He still averaged 18 touches and 1.3 goals per game in the 9 games he did play)

If we review Martin’s 28 games across 2021-23 v DeGoey’s 43 games across 2021-23 (I haven’t removed any games when injured during game etc…):

Martin v DeGoey

Disposals: 20.96 v 21.12
Goals: 1.21 v 1.07
GA’s: 0.79 v 0.60
Tackles: 1.93 v 2.72
I50’s: 4.93 v 4.09
CL: 3.14 v 4.19

So in his very worst period Martin’s performances stack up comparably to DeGoey’s best seasons at his peak age. I know DeGoey is not in GOAT discussions, but it’s pretty amazing Martin at his very worst has been comparable to DeGoey at his best.

Oh boy... how the benchmark moves....

You're talking up Martin as the GOAT and as evidence to that you're comparing his stats with a bloke who has finished 4th and 10th in his club's Best and Fairest?

I don't know anyone who would have had De Goey in the top 20 players in the competition in 2021 or 2022, hence my use of the term 'mulligan'.

If you're putting someone up as GOAT, you'd want them performing better than somewhere around the top 20 to 30 players in the competition as a 30 year old (and that is prior to a season ending injury which meant he only played two thirds of the games available to him).

 

[Glorfindel]

Martin was back to his best this week. Martin is the best finals player ever and also a brownlow medalist and MVP

11 kicks at 70% efficiency is his best?

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

What's with the Richmond supporters obsession with goal assists.

It's like they know his stats aren't that great so they choose to add something extra to spice them up a little.

Next time I meet a girl I'll say my penis isn't very big but you should see the size of my balls.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Martin was back to his best this week. Martin is the best finals player ever and also a brownlow medalist and MVP

Back to his best yet not a single coaches vote.

I think you've just answered the question to your own OP.

 

[blaisee]

In 2021 Martin played 14 full games. Was injured halfway through R6 v Melbourne and R18 v Lions which ended his season.

In his 14 completed games of 2021:
Average disposals: 24.2
Goals: 1.29
Goal assists: 1.0

So 2021 was hardly needing a mulligan. He was putting together a terrific season before getting injured.

2022 was a shambles due to mental health and his hamstring injury. (He still averaged 18 touches and 1.3 goals per game in the 9 games he did play)

If we review Martin’s 28 games across 2021-23 v DeGoey’s 43 games across 2021-23 (I haven’t removed any games when injured during game etc…):

Martin v DeGoey

Disposals: 20.96 v 21.12
Goals: 1.21 v 1.07
GA’s: 0.79 v 0.60
Tackles: 1.93 v 2.72
I50’s: 4.93 v 4.09
CL: 3.14 v 4.19

So in his very worst period Martin’s performances stack up comparably to DeGoey’s best seasons at his peak age. I know DeGoey is not in GOAT discussions, but it’s pretty amazing Martin at his very worst has been comparable to DeGoey at his best.



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Home run again

Incredible that these haters keep fronting up to get their heads kicked in , every day

Suckers for punishment lol

 

[blaisee]

What's with the Richmond supporters obsession with goal assists.

It's like they know his stats aren't that great so they choose to add something extra to spice them up a little.

Next time I meet a girl I'll say my penis isn't very big but you should see the size of my balls.

Because dusty is the most unselfish champion of all time

That’s another reason why he is the goat

 

[blaisee]

Back to his best yet not a single coaches vote.

I think you've just answered the question to your own OP.

So now coaches votes matter ?

We have gone over this a million times lol

 

[Fadge]

Home run again

Incredible that these haters keep fronting up to get their heads kicked in , every day

Suckers for punishment lol

Yeah, cop that.

'You said he didn't have a good year in 2021, and yet he would have easily been in the top 60 players in the competition before he got injured.

So there.'

 

[sandeano]

Dusty certainly has a strong case to be greatest finals player ever no doubt.

Best player ever ?.........NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Best kick ever ?......... Right up there with Quinlan, Jarman and Fevola that I have seen.

As a Richmond supporter I have to agree. Love Dusty, and to say he is not the greatest of all time is hardly detrimental.

But yes, a finals great - for sure. But then again when can only judge this on available footage. There is an argument that, in terms of the tigers, KB was just as good, if not better in finals (not just counting the brilliance of 1980).

As for kicking, yes, he is akin to a sniper's rifle. Just superb.

Bar a miracle he won't partake in another flag, let alone win a Norm Smith.

But gee, he has three. That's more than enough to celebrate. Let's just enjoy that, rather than trying to shoehorn him into bullshit arguments.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Oh boy... how the benchmark moves....

You're talking up Martin as the GOAT and as evidence to that you're comparing his stats with a bloke who has finished 4th and 10th in his club's Best and Fairest?

I don't know anyone who would have had De Goey in the top 20 players in the competition in 2021 or 2022, hence my use of the term 'mulligan'.

If you're putting someone up as GOAT, you'd want them performing better than somewhere around the top 20 to 30 players in the competition as a 30 year old...

Nice gaslighting. You said his last couple of seasons - hampered by 2 x serious injuries and mental health issues - were ‘non-existent’. I just outlined his ‘non-existent’ seasons as you called them were comparable to one of Collingwood’s best and highest paid players very best seasons.

Don’t worry, I was very surprised as well given the physical and mental issues Martin faced throughout 2021-22.


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[Noidnadroj]

What's with the Richmond supporters obsession with goal assists.

It's like they know his stats aren't that great so they choose to add something extra to spice them up a little.

Next time I meet a girl I'll say my penis isn't very big but you should see the size of my balls.

Yeah, I mean what on earth is the relevance of a goal assist for a mid/fwd. What next, start keeping track of assists in basketball like making a play to help someone else score actually means something.

Crazy stuff.

As a matter of interest, behind goals, what stat do you think is next most important for a mid-fwd?


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[Noidnadroj]

Yeah, cop that.

'You said he didn't have a good year in 2021, and yet he would have easily been in the top 60 players in the competition before he got injured.

So there.'

In 2021 Martin played 14 full games. He finished equal 5th in Tigers B&F on 40 votes. Grimes won with 51 votes. So he almost certainly wins the B&F with a full season.

So he was not tracking for a ‘non-existent’ season as you described it. Not sure why anyone would expect him to be dominating despite a lacerated kidney, badly Damaged hamstring and mental health issues.

His 2022 was of course ruined by mental health issues and injury.



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[blaisee]

Yeah, I mean what on earth is the relevance of a goal assist for a mid/fwd. What next, start keeping track of assists in basketball like making a play to help someone else score actually means something.

Crazy stuff.

As a matter of interest, behind goals, what stat do you think is next most important for a mid-fwd?


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All Australian captaincy ?

Tommy is on target to go back to back

 

[Seeds]

Martin was back to his best this week. Martin is the best finals player ever and also a brownlow medalist and MVP

best award winning finals player. Although he only actually played one great grand final. The other two were simply good ones where no one stood out in massacres of interstate sides.

The next best award winning finals players in grand finals are luke hodge, gary ayers and andrew mccleod. None of which rank in the top 50 players of all time. Dustin martin ranks just above them in terms of finals awards. Although thats only because mcleod only played two grand finals. Mcleod was a better finals performer then martin.

dustin martin will be ranked more highly if he simply plays better football. Its not about awards. Its about playing better football. Given martin wont get better at his age his fate in football rankings is already determined.

ps. Lockett, carey, and ablett are the 3 best players of the last 40 years. Between the 3 of them there are 8 grand finals. only one great one, two solid ones and 5 very ordinary ones. And yet they all rank well above martin. Why? Cos its not about awards in one off games, its about how good a player you are.

 

[VinnieB]

Nice gaslighting. You said his last couple of seasons - hampered by 2 x serious injuries and mental health issues - were ‘non-existent’. I just outlined his ‘non-existent’ seasons as you called them were comparable to one of Collingwood’s best and highest paid players very best seasons.

Don’t worry, I was very surprised as well given the physical and mental issues Martin faced throughout 2021-22.


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What’s Richmond’s unhealthy obsession with JDG? He hasn’t even made our top 3 in a B&F.

Also comparing a guy who has played 20+ games in 85% of seasons v a guy who has played 20+ in only 38%.

If you’re talking stars of the game, the best player we have had since 2010 is Pendlebury. He seems to do ok.

 

[Mr Meow]

In 2021 Martin played 14 full games. Was injured halfway through R6 v Melbourne and R18 v Lions which ended his season.

In his 14 completed games of 2021:
Average disposals: 24.2
Goals: 1.29
Goal assists: 1.0

So 2021 was hardly needing a mulligan. He was putting together a terrific season before getting injured.

2022 was a shambles due to mental health and his hamstring injury. (He still averaged 18 touches and 1.3 goals per game in the 9 games he did play)

If we review Martin’s 28 games across 2021-23 v DeGoey’s 43 games across 2021-23 (I haven’t removed any games when injured during game etc…):

Martin v DeGoey

Disposals: 20.96 v 21.12
Goals: 1.21 v 1.07
GA’s: 0.79 v 0.60
Tackles: 1.93 v 2.72
I50’s: 4.93 v 4.09
CL: 3.14 v 4.19

So in his very worst period Martin’s performances stack up comparably to DeGoey’s best seasons at his peak age. I know DeGoey is not in GOAT discussions, but it’s pretty amazing Martin at his very worst has been comparable to DeGoey at his best.



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Ablett Jr. was the same age as Martin's 2021/2022 in 2014/2015 with similarly interrupted seasons - 21 games at a team with a worse midfield and forward line supporting him than Martin in those years. GAJ averaged 24.7 possessions, 7.4 clearances, 1.6 goals and 1.1 goal assists. Martin averaged 21 possessions, 3.3 clearances, 1.2 goals and 0.8 goal assists across the two seasons in question. Not to mention Ablett had 22 Brownlow votes from the first 15 games of that 2014 season prior to the shoulder injury and was the Brownlow favourite at that point. So I think it's fair to say Martin showed a decline as far as GOAT contender level 30 year old output.

 

[smasha]

Dusty’s internal organ injury halted him big time.

Affects the whole body,an injury of that magnitude.

Imagine how much more of a goat he would be!

 

[CCurnow3votes]

He & they couldn’t be further from it.

Heading in the other direction.

Retirement & Rebuild.

 

[RAPPA]

Is Martin actually still playing? Genuine question.

 

[PhatBoy]

Home run again

Incredible that these haters keep fronting up to get their heads kicked in , every day

Suckers for punishment lol

Incredible that you still can’t front up as to why you disappeared for so long.

‘Oh yay Martin is as good as an upper-mid-tier guy from Collingwood that everyone routinely rags on for not playing to his potential yaaaayyyy he’s so awesome.’

 

[PhatBoy]

So now coaches votes matter ?

We have gone over this a million times lol

You’d think the best player of all time, playing at his best, would have been noticed by one of the two coaches overseeing the game and named in at least one of their top 5s, wouldn’t you?