Investigation into Essendon Fitness Program

[Aerial Ping Pong]

Actually so is Jobe. He is saying he used the substance, but that the substance is not a prohibited one. So he is still pleading not guilty to using a prohibited substance, but the onus is on him to show exactly why AOD is not a prohibited substance.

ASADA have been happy to wait on this, so if its not freaking them out I don't think the integrity of the ongoing comp issue is a big one (if it was I assume they would have had a different view when the admissions were first made by EFC/the players).

Didn't he do more than admit to using a possibly prohibited substance? I think he may have admitted to using a prohibited method. 40 -50 injections during the season. Doesn't that fall under the "banned method" definition? It doesn't matter about the status of the substance if the method is banned.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Does anyone honestly think that if Essendon had evidence that they were allowed to use AOD they wouldn't be shouting it from the rooftops to stop this nightmare for the club's image?

They would have got the evidence to every news organization in the country within an hour wouldn't they?

You would think so.

Why allow the public sullying of the clubs name and the name of the players' and staff if there is no need to?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If someone at ASADA screwed up it doesn't make it right.
If some cop tells me its OK to drive at 140 If I think its safe, I still break the law. Maybe I can sue the cop who told me bad information , but I'm still breaking the law.
Did I say I'd still be breaking the law.

So if this is what happened add ASADA to the other's who are in the shit over this, but don't remove anyone.

Yes it would be unfair, but hey , shit happens when you inject shit to try to improve your physical advantage.

Actually you would win your case. Punters have had speeding fines overturned for non-visible speed signs, and for speed cameras set up contrary to the rules they were supposed to follow. If ASADA screwed up, they will have to wear it IMO

 

[The_Reaper]

Actually you would win your case. Punters have had speeding fines overturned for non-visible speed signs, and for speed cameras set up contrary to the rules they were supposed to follow. If ASADA screwed up, they will have to wear it IMO

We all know they didn't.
At best Dank fails English and Essendon took him at face value.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Didn't he do more than admit to using a possibly prohibited substance? I think he may have admitted to using a prohibited method. 40 -50 injections during the season. Doesn't that fall under the "banned method" definition? It doesn't matter about the status of the substance if the method is banned.

Depends upon the amount and type, and he didn't specify any of this, so its very possible his 40-50 were per permitted methods (we simply don't know yet)

 

[Ned_Flanders]

We all know they didn't.
At best Dank fails English and Essendon took him at face value.

Again, I was responding to a scenario a poster raised.

My experience with govt depts is they rarely give clear advice on anything, so I doubt this has happened

 

[TommyMcG]

No. With a positive sample OR confession, sanctions can be applied immediately. How many athletes would confess to using a prohibited substance though?

I'm still yet to find it documented anywhere that an athlete can be sanctioned immediately.. I don't think that Wikipedia article you quoted will hold up under scrutiny.

 

[jenny61_99]

Work it out, genius.

What have I done to deserve that from you?

 

[Baldur]

If I was trying to defend the Essendon players the first thing I would do is get somebody to test the vials to see if they really contained AOD-9604.

If this failed and AOD-9604 was in the vial then I would pretty much have to accept that a doping violation is going to be found. But there is no need to me to admit they contained AOD-9604 even if I know they do, let them built their own case.

The next rung on the ladder is to call into question the basis of S0 and if AOD-9604 really fits into it. Call into question what approval means, that AOD-9604 is a PED or dangerous. Would not expect it to work unless I got lucky with the judge but a useful strawman and lever for the next step.

Accepting that it will almost be certain that I will unable to defeat the finding of a doping violation. The game moves to sentancing. What can I do to make the sentance as light as possable? Blaming other people is always good, i.e. Dank and if I can manage it ASADA could well serve a treat to get the sentance lowered. My poor client is a victim of this evil **** etc etc.

But I would tell my client to co-operate and tell the truth becouse they simply have too much evidance and if he gets done lying its two years.

Then negotiate for all I am worth, try to say that as it is a team issue, the club should be the main target of sanctions as it is the guilty party and doing so will still serve the aims of ASADA and WADA. No PED effect means no unfair effect on competion, ban should be 6 months at most served from the end of the season.

Anything about this sound familiar?

 

[PRACKLER]

if, say, essendon folk were knowingly deceived by Dank into thinking the supplements they took were approved/ok via forged information would this be enough to absolve them from any wrongdoing? Presumably not as they are still required to do their own due diligence but just wondered if this might be they 'complicated' bit we keep hearing about?

 

[Baldur]

If someone at ASADA screwed up it doesn't make it right.
If some cop tells me its OK to drive at 140 If I think its safe, I still break the law. Maybe I can sue the cop who told me bad information , but I'm still breaking the law.
Did I say I'd still be breaking the law.

So if this is what happened add ASADA to the other's who are in the shit over this, but don't remove anyone.

Yes it would be unfair, but hey , shit happens when you inject shit to try to improve your physical advantage.

yep that is correct

 

[Baldur]

if, say, essendon folk were knowingly deceived by Dank into thinking the supplements they took were approved/ok via forged information would this be enough to absolve them from any wrongdoing? Presumably not as they are still required to do their own due diligence but just wondered if this might be they 'complicated' bit we keep hearing about?

No, but could be used try to argue a lesser penalty

 

[skipper kelly]

How so?

It doesn't smell right IMO.

The AFL have a press conference when someone has an ingrown toe nail. A player admits on national TV to taking a banned substance and the AFL is quiet. Once again they are treating the supporters like muppets.

 

[IanW]

if, say, essendon folk were knowingly deceived by Dank into thinking the supplements they took were approved/ok via forged information would this be enough to absolve them from any wrongdoing? Presumably not as they are still required to do their own due diligence but just wondered if this might be they 'complicated' bit we keep hearing about?

Only if you can convince WADA and CAS to abandon strict liability

 

[Suma Magic]

Isn't the most likely scenario that they've been planning to announce findings a week or two before the finals? That way the teams coming 7-10th will know if the bombers will lose points and can plan accordingly. Also, the AFL can do the fixture for round 23. Also, if they announce it too early the bombers may protest or something which would ruin the season.

 

[PRACKLER]

No, but could be used try to argue a lesser penalty

yeah- that's why they might be so confident the players will be fine.
essendon and reid hoodwinked by dank, players get advice from their doc as they are told to do- he refers them to the info he has and the green light is given.
essendon and reid cop a whack as they should have known better than to trust some two-bit muscle-peddler and the players get off as they were just victims of poor governance and general run of the mill stupidity. hird, reid et al ultimately fall on their swords admitting they've been duped but still come out of it with integrity intact as they've continued to support the players and are shown to not have deliberately cheated.. the club cops some kinda 'ban' 'sanction' and life goes on.
something like this isn't too far fetched is it?

 

[The_Wookie]

Isn't the most likely scenario that they've been planning to announce findings a week or two before the finals? That way the teams coming 7-10th will know if the bombers will lose points and can plan accordingly. Also, the AFL can do the fixture for round 23. Also, if they announce it too early the bombers may protest or something which would ruin the season.

get used to hearing the term injunction about that time. Grand Final should be played around december 2016

 

[jenny61_99]

I'm still yet to find it documented anywhere that an athlete can be sanctioned immediately.. I don't think that Wikipedia article you quoted will hold up under scrutiny.

No you are right. Immediate sanctions in the form of a temporary banning from an event are only in the case of a positive test. I'm not sure they've had many athletes put their hands up and admit guilt to set any precedent. An ADRV can be established on an athletes admission of guilt, but they would still have to go through the process before the sanction could be applied.

WADA CODE: For example, an Anti-Doping Organization may establish an anti-doping rule violation under Article 2.2 (Use or Attempted Use of a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method) based on the Athlete’s admissions, the credible testimony of third Persons, reliable documentary evidence, reliable analytical data from either an A or B Sample as provided in the Comments to Article 2.2, or conclusions drawn from the profile of a series of the Athlete’s blood or urine Samples.]

 

[Baldur]

yeah- that's why they might be so confident the players will be fine.
essendon and reid hoodwinked by dank, players get advice from their doc as they are told to do- he refers them to the info he has and the green light is given.
essendon and reid cop a whack as they should have known better than to trust some two-bit muscle-peddler and the players get off as they were just victims of poor governance and general run of the mill stupidity. hird, reid et al ultimately fall on their swords admitting they've been duped but still come out of it with integrity intact as they've continued to support the players and are shown to not have deliberately cheated.. the club cops some kinda 'ban' 'sanction' and life goes on.
something like this isn't too far fetched is it?

If you consider "fine" being a 6 month ban. Frankly unless some hail mary play works, like proving it was not AOD-9604 or overturning the decision that AOD-9604 is banned, that is the best the players can get.

The players walking, at present yes that is too far fetched. Not impossable I guess, courts can do very odd things, but very unlikely.

 

[PRACKLER]

If you consider "fine" being a 6 month ban. Frankly unless some hail mary play works, like proving it was not AOD-9604 or overturning the decision that AOD-9604 is banned, that is the best the players can get.

The players walking, at present yes that is too far fetched. Not impossable I guess, courts can do very odd things, but very unlikely.

yeah - i agree Baldur. Just trying to work out what Hird et al know that we don't that might 'protect' the players. It would need to be a corker like some kind of criminal sub-plot they were caught up in or they are just quite simply deluded.

 

[replicant]

People are forgetting that even if ASADA did say it was ok, there is an email floating about from WADA to Dank which explicitly says that WADA can't find it has government regulatory approval anywhere.

Even if ASADA got it wrong, they then had two conflicting pieces of information. One from ASADA saying it might be ok, one from WADA saying they don't think it's ok. At this point the responsible course would be to contact the relevant governement department and find out if the substance in question has regulatory approval. If they didn't take that step, then it won't matter what ASADA said, as they failed to fully investigate the matter despite being aware there could be an issue.

 

[Stox]

yeah- that's why they might be so confident the players will be fine.
essendon and reid hoodwinked by dank, players get advice from their doc as they are told to do- he refers them to the info he has and the green light is given.
essendon and reid cop a whack as they should have known better than to trust some two-bit muscle-peddler and the players get off as they were just victims of poor governance and general run of the mill stupidity. hird, reid et al ultimately fall on their swords admitting they've been duped but still come out of it with integrity intact as they've continued to support the players and are shown to not have deliberately cheated.. the club cops some kinda 'ban' 'sanction' and life goes on.
something like this isn't too far fetched is it?

Unfortunately this means WADA must ignore the mountain of liability clauses it put into the code to avoid people blaming their medical staff. They do not care who told you it was ok. The athlete is always the only party.

 

[blackshadow]

If you consider "fine" being a 6 month ban. Frankly unless some hail mary play works, like proving it was not AOD-9604 or overturning the decision that AOD-9604 is banned, that is the best the players can get.

The players walking, at present yes that is too far fetched. Not impossable I guess, courts can do very odd things, but very unlikely.

I think part of the reason that ASADA is taking so long in their deliberations is to ensure that every i is dotted and that every t is crossed so that there is no way that Essendon can mount any legal challenge to their findings.

My understanding is that the only legal challenge that can be made to any tribunal outside the WADA/AFL system is an appeal to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal on grounds that procedural fairness hasn't been followed. Can someone verify if that's the case?

All other appeals are through the WADA/AFL process. And the chances of the CAS overturning AOD9604 being covered under S0 are so close to zero it's not worth arguing about.

 

[Baldur]

yeah - i agree Baldur. Just trying to work out what Hird et al know that we don't that might 'protect' the players. It would need to be a corker like some kind of criminal sub-plot they were caught up in or they are just quite simply deluded.

Or have been told to keep a positive public face while their solicitors try to arrange the best deal possable. It is no good trying to tell ASADA that your client is going to run a test case and you are confident of success so they should offer a better deal, if the client is moping around on TV going woe is me.

 

[Jimthegreat]

The story so far.....

1. We're shocked to be sitting here
2. We don't know what we've taken
3. We've taken nothing illegal
4. No one outside Dank and the Weapon knew what was going on
5. Those invoices? What invoices? Oh, you mean the ones we signed and paid.
6. We don't know what we've taken
7. We've taken nothing illegal
8. What consent forms?
9. Oh. those consent forms. They don't prove that the substances named were actually taken.
10. The coaches and doctors didn't know about the forms or the program. Its all Dank and the Weapon's fault.
11. Oh yeah. Hirdy was in the room when the Consent forms were signed
12. And oh yeah - Hirdy had a six month text fling with Dank raving on about the program
13. We don't know what we've taken
14. We've taken nothing illegal
15. But wait! We have a letter
16. No we don't
17. The forms state AOD-9604
18. But look! it's not in Section S2 of the WADA banned substances list
19. Oh, but it is in section S0. Damn!
20. But look there have been some cosmetics use! All clear!
21. Damn... WADA says banned for athletes
22. Yeah but... we aren't saying we took AOD-9604
23. But if we did take it, we think we're fine
24. Jobe admits he took a banned substance.
25. Doc Reid knew about it after all
26. But we're still fine. Jobe and Timmy say so.

Yeah, they've been open, honest and co operative throughout.