Expansion Is league in western sydney really that strong

[littleduck]

says it all really. AFL average 45,000 for the round. NRL creams themselves when they get 36,000 to a derby.

Another record in Rugby League broken after the Canterbury-Bankstown attract a record home game crowd. RL has a habit of regularly breaking its own records in recent times. This can only be good. However, grayham would have us all believe otherwise.

 

[Doctor Jolly]

Another record in Rugby League broken after the Canterbury-Bankstown attract a record home game crowd. RL has a habit of regularly breaking its own records in recent times. This can only be good. However, grayham would have us all believe otherwise.

Well done NRL. Pity only 15,000 turned up the next day at the same venue.

But I've noticed this year, the NRL is doing a much better job of hyping up "blockbusters".

 

[RUNVS]

But I've noticed this year, the NRL is doing a much better job of hyping up "blockbusters".

Ive noticed it too but it is possible to overhype matches. If you believe the NRL 2 or 3 games a week are GRUDGE matches.

 

[Demonoid]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/ne...ers-in-the-west/2008/04/06/1207420204255.html

Interesting article below and quite relevant to this particular topic. I must say that The Age/SMH have been pumping out quite a few of these articles. Interestingly, most of the people interviewed are unfamiliar with the Swans and Australian Football in general, although i think the very last comment is significant.
Once the AFL's muscular marketing arm starts rolling a few bouncers over, I envisage that in the next 2-3 years, they will all know quite a bit about history and truth of our great game

AFL relying on the kindness of strangers in the west

April 7, 2008

Blacktown folk would welcome a new club, but don't expect them to know anything about it, writes Jessica Halloran.

Sydney Swans star Barry Hall was mistaken for former captain Paul Kelly. He was also identified as Bill Hall.
The 2003 and 2006 Brownlow medallist, Adam Goodes, was named as former Manly Sea Eagle and Wallaby Andrew Walker. Swans coach Paul Roos was thought to be an assistant coach of St George Illawarra and the Sydney Roosters. The soon-to-be AFL heartland of Blacktown has not embraced a team that has been in Sydney for 25 years - how will they go with their own?
The majority of those the Herald spoke to in Blacktown were oblivious to the AFL's plan to plant a new club in their neighbourhood. Yet they are not averse to the new team being there. Isaiah Pinomi, 17, a Westfield High student, said he knew of only two boys at his school that had played Australian football. Pinomi could not identify a Sydney Swan.
"… Most of us like league, there's not much interest in Aussie Rules," Pinomi said. "You've got schools that sponsor rugby league and stuff. You've got Penrith just around the corner and Parramatta down the road. The area lives and breathes it."
The AFL hopes to have their western Sydney football club established by 2012 and the $28 million Blacktown training headquarters and ovals built by then. Hall, who was correctly identified three times because of the the AFL's successful "Barry Hall Hall" television ad, believes Sydney will have trouble sustaining two teams.
"I don't think we can just throw a team out there in Western Sydney, chuck a heap of money at it and think it's going to work," Hall wrote in the Herald recently.
Willie Mason's cousin, Alfred, 18, who happened to be shopping at Westpoint, was one of only three people to identify Hall correctly. The Westfield High student said that the first love of the area's teenagers was league, then union and soccer. "But it would be good to introduce another sport for the youth out here, instead of them ending up on the streets and stuff," Mason said.
Goodes and Roos were correctly identified once. Goodes was often mistaken for Michael O'Loughlin. Photographs of league players Sonny Bill Williams, Willie Mason and Jarryd Hayne were easily identified by the majority of those interviewed, but a picture of Broncos coach Wayne Bennett had some western Sydneysiders deliberating.
A photograph of former Balmain league player Garry Jack and his son, Kieren, who is a few games into his career as a Swan, drew an interesting response. Many were able to pick the elder Jack but only one picked Jack jnr.

Tamara O'Brien, who was strolling outside Westpoint shopping centre in her Canterbury Bulldogs guernsey, could not identify the Swans stars and was one of many surprised to hear of an AFL team coming to the area.
"I've heard nothing about it," O'Brien said. "They'd be better putting an NRL team around here."
Shandell Madden, 16, and 12-year-olds Elaine Tsigounis, Alissa Filippllo and Juelyse Liumaunu are all huge fans of Bulldogs star Williams, but had no idea who the Swans players were.
"We like football, rugby league, at school," Tsigounis said. "Especially when those little Tazos come out. People go crazy for football."
But Dean Greethead, 35, who was wearing a NSW State of Origin jumper and described himself as a lifelong league fan, positively identified all three of the Swans. Greethead thought the new AFL team would go well.
"Not in the short term but I think in the long term, they [NRL] should be very worried," Greethead said. "A lot of people are getting sick of the NRL and all the rubbish that is going on with it. In general, I don't think the NRL does a lot with juniors. I don't think it does enough to promote the game in that sense."

 

[RUNVS]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/ne...ers-in-the-west/2008/04/06/1207420204255.html

Interesting article below and quite relevant to this particular topic. I must say that The Age/SMH have been pumping out quite a few of these articles. Interestingly, most of the people interviewed are unfamiliar with the Swans and Australian Football in general, although i think the very last comment is significant.
Once the AFL's muscular marketing arm starts rolling a few bouncers over, I envisage that in the next 2-3 years, they will all know quite a bit about history and truth of our great game

AFL relying on the kindness of strangers in the west

April 7, 2008

Blacktown folk would welcome a new club, but don't expect them to know anything about it, writes Jessica Halloran.

Sydney Swans star Barry Hall was mistaken for former captain Paul Kelly. He was also identified as Bill Hall.
The 2003 and 2006 Brownlow medallist, Adam Goodes, was named as former Manly Sea Eagle and Wallaby Andrew Walker. Swans coach Paul Roos was thought to be an assistant coach of St George Illawarra and the Sydney Roosters. The soon-to-be AFL heartland of Blacktown has not embraced a team that has been in Sydney for 25 years - how will they go with their own?
The majority of those the Herald spoke to in Blacktown were oblivious to the AFL's plan to plant a new club in their neighbourhood. Yet they are not averse to the new team being there. Isaiah Pinomi, 17, a Westfield High student, said he knew of only two boys at his school that had played Australian football. Pinomi could not identify a Sydney Swan.
"… Most of us like league, there's not much interest in Aussie Rules," Pinomi said. "You've got schools that sponsor rugby league and stuff. You've got Penrith just around the corner and Parramatta down the road. The area lives and breathes it."
The AFL hopes to have their western Sydney football club established by 2012 and the $28 million Blacktown training headquarters and ovals built by then. Hall, who was correctly identified three times because of the the AFL's successful "Barry Hall Hall" television ad, believes Sydney will have trouble sustaining two teams.
"I don't think we can just throw a team out there in Western Sydney, chuck a heap of money at it and think it's going to work," Hall wrote in the Herald recently.
Willie Mason's cousin, Alfred, 18, who happened to be shopping at Westpoint, was one of only three people to identify Hall correctly. The Westfield High student said that the first love of the area's teenagers was league, then union and soccer. "But it would be good to introduce another sport for the youth out here, instead of them ending up on the streets and stuff," Mason said.
Goodes and Roos were correctly identified once. Goodes was often mistaken for Michael O'Loughlin. Photographs of league players Sonny Bill Williams, Willie Mason and Jarryd Hayne were easily identified by the majority of those interviewed, but a picture of Broncos coach Wayne Bennett had some western Sydneysiders deliberating.
A photograph of former Balmain league player Garry Jack and his son, Kieren, who is a few games into his career as a Swan, drew an interesting response. Many were able to pick the elder Jack but only one picked Jack jnr.

Tamara O'Brien, who was strolling outside Westpoint shopping centre in her Canterbury Bulldogs guernsey, could not identify the Swans stars and was one of many surprised to hear of an AFL team coming to the area.
"I've heard nothing about it," O'Brien said. "They'd be better putting an NRL team around here."
Shandell Madden, 16, and 12-year-olds Elaine Tsigounis, Alissa Filippllo and Juelyse Liumaunu are all huge fans of Bulldogs star Williams, but had no idea who the Swans players were.
"We like football, rugby league, at school," Tsigounis said. "Especially when those little Tazos come out. People go crazy for football."
But Dean Greethead, 35, who was wearing a NSW State of Origin jumper and described himself as a lifelong league fan, positively identified all three of the Swans. Greethead thought the new AFL team would go well.
"Not in the short term but I think in the long term, they [NRL] should be very worried," Greethead said. "A lot of people are getting sick of the NRL and all the rubbish that is going on with it. In general, I don't think the NRL does a lot with juniors. I don't think it does enough to promote the game in that sense."

That article actually encourages me as een though most people in blacktown know little about AFL they sound like they are willing to give it a try. While in the short term a AFL team will not be that successful in blacktown in the long term i can see any AFL club based in blacktown becoming reasonably popular.

 

[genghiskhan]

That article actually encourages me as een though most people in blacktown know little about AFL they sound like they are willing to give it a try. While in the short term a AFL team will not be that successful in blacktown in the long term i can see any AFL club based in blacktown becoming reasonably popular.

If you did market research, and found that there was no demand for what you were selling, would you still establish a shop anyway?

As for growing demand, what could the new club offer that the Swans currently don't?

How long do you budget to grow demand? It is quite expensive to run a football team. How long do you budget going from 0 fans to 20,000 members? Five years? Ten?

I really think it would be suicide to enter straight into the AFL. As I said in another thread, the only hope I could see would be building support in a league with lower costs, and using the emotion of wanting to get into the AFL as a marketing angle to strengthen support.

 

[jackmac7]

They really are pumping out these articles continuing the fear campaign. At least the last guy made some sense giving his warning to the NRL that the new team would be successful and more people seem to be getting sick of the NRL.

They'll have a 16 page liftout on the new AFL West Sydney team on the eve of the team's first season.

 

[jackmac7]

As for growing demand, what could the new club offer that the Swans currently don't?

A Rivalry that will get the juices going and sell more tickets then SOO at ANZ perhaps.

How long do you budget to grow demand? It is quite expensive to run a football team. How long do you budget going from 0 fans to 20,000 members? Five years? Ten?

It won't even be close to the swans and their battle. The swans have laid down all the foundations and West Sydney will be up and going sooner then you think (or want). The AFL can really focus in on their market without the concerns that they had when setting up the swans in un-charted waters, they don't have to dabble their toes in to test the waters anymore, they will go in hard and considering the AFL is all cashed up and I don't think budgeting will be a problem, so stop stressing GENGHIS it's gonna be great.

I really think it would be suicide to enter straight into the AFL. As I said in another thread, the only hope I could see would be building support in a league with lower costs, and using the emotion of wanting to get into the AFL as a marketing angle to strengthen support.

No point and a waste of time and money. That's like me saying NRL should become a metroploitan compitition in Sydney and a state league for QLD, just ridiculous.

 

[Rob]

That article actually encourages me as een though most people in blacktown know little about AFL they sound like they are willing to give it a try. While in the short term a AFL team will not be that successful in blacktown in the long term i can see any AFL club based in blacktown becoming reasonably popular.

That's exactly the point of a team there - to attact new supporters to the game. Whether it will achieve that is up for debate, but some people seem to think that the existing number of supporters in that region is in some way relevant. They're missing the point.

 

[genghiskhan]

A Rivalry that will get the juices going and sell more tickets then SOO at ANZ perhaps.



It won't even be close to the swans and their battle. The swans have laid down all the foundations and West Sydney will be up and going sooner then you think (or want). The AFL can really focus in on their market without the concerns that they had when setting up the swans in un-charted waters, they don't have to dabble their toes in to test the waters anymore, they will go in hard and considering the AFL is all cashed up and I don't think budgeting will be a problem, so stop stressing GENGHIS it's gonna be great.



No point and a waste of time and money. That's like me saying NRL should become a metroploitan compitition in Sydney and a state league for QLD, just ridiculous.

I've seen misplaced optimism before. Let's not forget that the AFL once signed a contract to play 11 games a year at Stadium Australia from 2000 onwards. The Kangaroos were going to be Sydney's second team and build a rivalry with the Swans. Money was lost and plans quickly changed.

 

[cos789]

The Kangaroos were going to be Sydney's second team and build a rivalry with the Swans.

Though most reasonable people thought that North Melbourne were going to become the Northern Roos . The Roos themselves never ever said they were moving from their Arden St. home . Just like they never ever said they were going to Canberra or going to the Goldcoast .
And they never lost any money over the enterprise .


.

 

[genghiskhan]

Though most reasonable people thought that North Melbourne were going to become the Northern Roos . The Roos themselves never ever said they were moving from their Arden St. home . Just like they never ever said they were going to Canberra or going to the Goldcoast .
And they never lost any money over the enterprise .


.

Although they never said they would be moving, they did change their name from the Nth Melbourne Kangaroos to the Northern Kangaroos and then the Kangaroos. A contract was signed with Stadium Australia and I remember reading on the AFL website that they would be relocating within 5-10 years.

As for losing money, Nth lost nothing, but the AFL lost money. I'd say the Swans lost as well. The football climate pre-Kangaroos was far more prosperous than post-Kangaroos.

At times, AFL people seem to think that exposure will always lead to an increase in popularity. I don't agree with that perspective. It seemed the long the Kangaroos stayed in Sydney, the less fans were there to watch.

 

[maroon and blue]

Although they never said they would be moving, they did change their name from the Nth Melbourne Kangaroos to the Northern Kangaroos and then the Kangaroos. A contract was signed with Stadium Australia and I remember reading on the AFL website that they would be relocating within 5-10 years.

As for losing money, Nth lost nothing, but the AFL lost money. I'd say the Swans lost as well. The football climate pre-Kangaroos was far more prosperous than post-Kangaroos.

At times, AFL people seem to think that exposure will always lead to an increase in popularity. I don't agree with that perspective. It seemed the long the Kangaroos stayed in Sydney, the less fans were there to watch.

Off topic but Stadium Australia seems to be a white elephant. Just wondering, does it get govt. assistance to allow it to be viable?

 

[Professor Knowall]

The Kangaroos were half hearted in Sydney (as a fly-in team, with no committment to re-locate, and the Swans quite rightfully leading the way in deriding them), and deserved to fail (Ditto Canberra, ditto Gold Coast).

The AFL aren't hiding the fact that both the new clubs will lose heaps of money as individual clubs for a number of years (could be a large number), but that would be off-set (and more) by extra revenue overall to the league - part of which will be used to keep the new clubs afloat.

Intersesting to hear Bulldogs President, Graeme Smorgan interviewed on the weekend. When asked about the expansion, he said that at the meeting that unaminously approved the expansion, he and (his quote) "most of the other Presidents" arrived at the meeting intending to vote against it, but that the AFL Commissions presentation for the expansion was (again his quote) "overwhelming and compelling", and that he (along with all the others) than changed to supporting the expansion as "the only realistic option".

He also referred to the "commercial in-confidence" documents at the meeting, but (like others at the meeting) refused to give any details except to repeat "it was compelling". You may draw your own conclusions from this.

 

[Fitzcray]

Only 11,000 bothered to show for the battle of Sydney's west last night.
Penrith v Wests.
The Swans game next weekend in Sydney's western suburbs will probably attract six times that number.

 

[Professor Knowall]

Which brings us back to the original topic on this thread. "Is league in western Sydney really that strong?" Perhaps the answer to the question depends on what perspective one takes.

By rugby league standards/perspective, the answer would be yes. There supporters assure us that it is their heartland where their code is at it's strongest, and point to the number of NRL clubs based there. I see no reason to dispute any of this.

However, by Australian Football standards/perspective (e.g the footy culture we're used to in Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne), it isn't so strong as to exclude one AFL club being based there. For one thing, a local AFL club can develop a culture of barrackers attending games, not just watching on the tellie.

Once started up there, it might take 20 years to really grow strong roots and be self sustaining, but given sufficient financial support for a number of years, and also investment in grassroots participation in our game, it should eventually have a firm place in the Western suburbs sporting landscape. Just don't expect it to happen overnight. As the old saying goes - "Rome wasn't built in a day".

 

[littleduck]

Which brings us back to the original topic on this thread. "Is league in western Sydney really that strong?" Perhaps the answer to the question depends on what perspective one takes.

By rugby league standards/perspective, the answer would be yes. There supporters assure us that it is their heartland where their code is at it's strongest, and point to the number of NRL clubs based there. I see no reason to dispute any of this.

However, by Australian Football standards/perspective (e.g the footy culture we're used to in Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne), it isn't so strong as to exclude one AFL club being based there. For one thing, a local AFL club can develop a culture of barrackers attending games, not just watching on the tellie.

Once started up there, it might take 20 years to really grow strong roots and be self sustaining, but given sufficient financial support for a number of years, and also investment in grassroots participation in our game, it should eventually have a firm place in the Western suburbs sporting landscape. Just don't expect it to happen overnight. As the old saying goes - "Rome wasn't built in a day".

There is nowhere in Sydney where all public transport arteries approach a large central football stadium for regular patronage in big numbers from all teams. An AFL team will not change this fact. The culture of large patronage in Melbourne can never be replicated in Sydney.

 

[Professor Knowall]

There is nowhere in Sydney where all public transport arteries approach a large central football stadium for regular patronage in big numbers from all teams. An AFL team will not change this fact. The culture of large patronage in Melbourne can never be replicated in Sydney.

But its not, and never had been, just about public transport - and not just about Melbourne. It a plain fact that its part of Australain Football culture that you attend games to count as a 'true' supporter.

It wasn't so long ago that only 11 home and away games per year were played at the MCG, the rest scatttered around the various suburban venues, some with very poor public transport access (e.g Princes Park, Windy Hill). Yet crowds were always been far bigger in Melbourne than RL games at comparable suburban venues in Sydney - all the way back to 100 years ago. Look at Waverley (VFL) Park - it had shocking, almost non-existant public transport, yet could still attract huge crowds.

Further evidence - look at the constant sell-outs at Subiaco, even look at SANFL crowds in Adelaide, crowds for the Swans and Lions in rugby league heartland, even country Victorian footy crowds - its the game itself that has this culture of attendance, and has done so for generations. Its goes far beyond Melbourne's public transport, and far beyond just Melbourne.

 

[littleduck]

But its not, and never had been, just about public transport - and not just about Melbourne. It a plain fact that its part of Australain Football culture that you attend games to count as a 'true' supporter.

It wasn't so long ago that only 11 home and away games per year were played at the MCG, the rest scatttered around the various suburban venues, some with very poor public transport access (e.g Princes Park, Windy Hill). Yet crowds were always been far bigger in Melbourne than RL games at comparable suburban venues in Sydney - all the way back to 100 years ago. Look at Waverley (VFL) Park - it had shocking, almost non-existant public transport, yet could still attract huge crowds.

Further evidence - look at the constant sell-outs at Subiaco, even look at SANFL crowds in Adelaide, crowds for the Swans and Lions in rugby league heartland, even country Victorian footy crowds - its the game itself that has this culture of attendance, and has done so for generations. Its goes far beyond Melbourne's public transport, and far beyond just Melbourne.

Yeah all true, but you still need a suitably located central venue with public transport access for the masses to allow the culture of mass attendance to flourish. Sydney does not have that and never will. Tribalism is valued more by Sydney NRL clubs than Melbourne AFL clubs.

 

[genghiskhan]

The Kangaroos were half hearted in Sydney (as a fly-in team, with no committment to re-locate, and the Swans quite rightfully leading the way in deriding them), and deserved to fail (Ditto Canberra, ditto Gold Coast).

The AFL aren't hiding the fact that both the new clubs will lose heaps of money as individual clubs for a number of years (could be a large number), but that would be off-set (and more) by extra revenue overall to the league - part of which will be used to keep the new clubs afloat.

Intersesting to hear Bulldogs President, Graeme Smorgan interviewed on the weekend. When asked about the expansion, he said that at the meeting that unaminously approved the expansion, he and (his quote) "most of the other Presidents" arrived at the meeting intending to vote against it, but that the AFL Commissions presentation for the expansion was (again his quote) "overwhelming and compelling", and that he (along with all the others) than changed to supporting the expansion as "the only realistic option".

He also referred to the "commercial in-confidence" documents at the meeting, but (like others at the meeting) refused to give any details except to repeat "it was compelling". You may draw your own conclusions from this.

I am pretty sure the Kangaroos had a commitment to relocate. They just had two main issues to address. The first one was that their Sydney membership was only a couple of thousand or so, and not able to financially support them. The second one was that they had 15,000 or so Melbourne members that were supporting them. They were not able to fully embrace Sydney and do what needed to be done because they had to keep the Melbournians happy. Their plan was to build their Sydney membership up over the years and when it was at a similar level to the Melbourne membership they would relocate.

I don't think it was half hearted. It was well-funded and contracts were signed. The problem was the strategy was flawed. It was a classic example of why compromise is never an acceptable solution. A compromise is lose lose for both sides. It was bad for the Kangaroos marketability in Melbourne, and bad for its marketability in Sydney and led to a total loss all round. It was never going to work.

 

[genghiskhan]

Off topic but Stadium Australia seems to be a white elephant. Just wondering, does it get govt. assistance to allow it to be viable?

I wouldn't say it is a white elephant. NRL grand final. Up to two State of Origins a year. Bledisloe Cup. Occassionally a big soccer game. Reasonable sized AFL games and occassionally an reasonable sized NRL game.

Even if it didn't pay its own way, it would value to the city by allowing Sydney to stage this major events. Perhaps when the AFL contract with the MCG expires, there can be a AFL grand final in Sydney.

 

[littleduck]

I wouldn't say it is a white elephant. NRL grand final. Up to two State of Origins a year. Bledisloe Cup. Occassionally a big soccer game. Reasonable sized AFL games and occassionally an reasonable sized NRL game.

Even if it didn't pay its own way, it would value to the city by allowing Sydney to stage this major events. Perhaps when the AFL contract with the MCG expires, there can be a AFL grand final in Sydney.

Yeah, exactly. Remember thatn 99 out of 100 games at the MCG aren't even half capacity and nobody suggests the MCG is too big or unjustified.

 

[jackmac7]

But its not, and never had been, just about public transport - and not just about Melbourne. It a plain fact that its part of Australain Football culture that you attend games to count as a 'true' supporter.

It wasn't so long ago that only 11 home and away games per year were played at the MCG, the rest scatttered around the various suburban venues, some with very poor public transport access (e.g Princes Park, Windy Hill). Yet crowds were always been far bigger in Melbourne than RL games at comparable suburban venues in Sydney - all the way back to 100 years ago. Look at Waverley (VFL) Park - it had shocking, almost non-existant public transport, yet could still attract huge crowds.

Further evidence - look at the constant sell-outs at Subiaco, even look at SANFL crowds in Adelaide, crowds for the Swans and Lions in rugby league heartland, even country Victorian footy crowds - its the game itself that has this culture of attendance, and has done so for generations. Its goes far beyond Melbourne's public transport, and far beyond just Melbourne.

There was a local country game of footy near Wangaratta last weekend that had a crowd of 5,500 people. It's mind blowing when you compare that to a NRL game (professional sport) in Western Sydney last week at Penrith when 7,000 people turned up, Staggering really. Is league starting to rust already?

 

[littleduck]

There was a local country game of footy near Wangaratta last weekend that had a crowd of 5,500 people. It's mind blowing when you compare that to a NRL game (professional sport) in Western Sydney last week at Penrith when 7,000 people turned up, Staggering really. Is league starting to rust already?

What did the Swans average in 1991 and 1992 in a city of 4 million plus?

 

[genghiskhan]

But its not, and never had been, just about public transport - and not just about Melbourne. It a plain fact that its part of Australain Football culture that you attend games to count as a 'true' supporter.

It wasn't so long ago that only 11 home and away games per year were played at the MCG, the rest scatttered around the various suburban venues, some with very poor public transport access (e.g Princes Park, Windy Hill). Yet crowds were always been far bigger in Melbourne than RL games at comparable suburban venues in Sydney - all the way back to 100 years ago. Look at Waverley (VFL) Park - it had shocking, almost non-existant public transport, yet could still attract huge crowds.

Further evidence - look at the constant sell-outs at Subiaco, even look at SANFL crowds in Adelaide, crowds for the Swans and Lions in rugby league heartland, even country Victorian footy crowds - its the game itself that has this culture of attendance, and has done so for generations. Its goes far beyond Melbourne's public transport, and far beyond just Melbourne.

Sydney is an extremely difficult city to get around. Melbourne is not. The only city where you can make fair comparisons is in Brisbane where both the AFL and the NRL only have one team in the city.