Is the Judd trade responsible for the state of the WCE list?

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Jan 26, 2006
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I've gone through the team lists on the AFL Season guide and collated stats for the states of the 719 players on AFL main lists as of the start of 2014.

If we split Victoria into Country and Metro we get

graph1.jpg


In theory a balanced AFL list with no recruiting biases should have a player breakdown that resembles this. I have chosen to measure bias by taking the percentage of players in a team from a state. and subtracting the percentage of players in the AFL from that state
For instance have 9 Western Australians (22.5%) on their list of 40 which would give them a pro WA bias of 4.98.
However since the average senior list is made up of 40 people- one player is worth 2.5%. So in reality Essendon's pro WA bias is equivalent to two extra Western Australians.

Very few teams will be without a home state bias, largely because most teams have a tendency to draft locals with lower order draft picks and in the case of two similarily rated players will generally draft the local.
Since WA and SA produce draftees well in excess of their own club demands the four WA/SA clubs benefit the most from the 'go home factor' which will increase their biases. So any excessive pro WA bias by West Coast is best measured in comparison to Adelaide, Fremantle and Port Adelaide.

graph2.jpg



This table is pretty straightforward.
One thing that is glaringly obvious is that 67.50% of the West Coast list is Western Australian. With Vic Metro and Country divided Richmond (52.63%) is the only other team with an excess of 50% of their list from their 'home state'.
West Coast's home state bias however is 50 whilst Richmond's is 21.2.

When we combine Victoria Metro and Country we see that a few teams match the Eagles in regards to players from the one state. North, Richmond and the Bulldogs all have over 70% Victorians. Interestingly North and the Bulldogs would be two of the least resourced clubs and Richmond's list is just as mediocre as West Coasts.
Essendon and GWS are also 67% Victorian.

Though of course we know that half of the players on senior lists are Victorian and to match the Eagles WA bias a club would have to only have Victorians.

graph3.jpg


It's not surprising to anyone that the traditional non Victorian teams dominate. But whilst Adelaide, Fremantle, Port Adelaide and Sydney all have bias's in the 20s- West Coast bias is a massive 49.98.

From this we can safely conclude that West Coast have an irrational recruiting bias which can explain the holes in the list, especially given that West Coast do not even have priority access to the less than 20% of the talent pool they restrict themselves to.

It gets interesting when we look at the 13 non Western Australians on the West Coast list. They are all from SA and VIC.

Of the 13, six players were drafted while Chris Judd was still at the club- Mitchell Brown, Sam Butler, Shannon Hurn, Matt Rosa, Will Schofield and Beau Waters.
Two players were brought in last year -Xavier Ellis and Malcolm Karpany. Ellis had an existing professional relationship with the new West Coast coach Adam Simpson.

The other five players are Andrew Gaff, Scott Lycett, Scott Selwood, Luke Shuey and Ashley Smith. Gaff would never have been picked if David Swallow and Harley Bennell were still avaliable, probably even if he were as talented as those two. Scott Selwood's brother was already playing for West Coast. Lycett and Shuey arguably got drafted lower than their actual values and indeed Lycett was an obvious eventual Cox replacement.

Last year West Coast set their mind up on drafting Western Australian Dom Sheed with their first pick. This allowed West Coast to trade down their first round pick from 6 to 11- knowing that the clubs with picks 6 to 10 would not draft Sheed.
Now it's very early days for Sheed but it was a very interesting move by West Coast and to me it indicates the pro WA bias of the recruiters.

Now lets look at some of the recent drafts and trades by the club. I've bolded the Western Australians

*Father Son

2013
National Draft- Dom Sheed, Malcolm Karpany, Tom Barrass, Dylan Main
Rookie Elevation- Jamie Bennell, Jeremy McGovern, Simon Tunbridge
Free Agent- Xavier Ellis
Trade - Elliot Yeo

2012
National Draft- Brant Colledge, Adam Carter, Mark Hutchings
Rookie Elevation- Brad Dick
Trade - Jamie Cripps, Cale Morton, Sharrod Wellingham

2011
National Draft - Murray Newman, Fraser McInnes
Rookie Elevation - Ashton Hams
Trade - Josh Hill
Pre-Season - Blayne Wilson

2010
National Draft- Andrew Gaff, Jack Darling, Scott Lycett, Jacob Brennan*
Rookie Elevation- Lewis Stevenson, Callum Wilson, Andrew Strijk
Pre Season- Ryan Neates

2009
National Draft- Brad Sheppard, Gerrick Weedon, Koby Stevens
Trade- Bradd Dalziell

2008
National Draft- Nic Naitanui, Luke Shuey, Tom Swift, Ashley Smith, Jordan Jones
Rookie Elevation- Patrick McGinnity, Beau Maister (Wilkes)

2007
National Draft- Chris Masten, Brad Ebert, Tony Notte, Scott Selwood
Rookie Elevation- Chad Jones, Jamie McNamara
Trade- Josh Kennedy

Chris Judd Trade

2006
National Draft- Mitchell Brown, Eric MacKenzie, Tim Houlihan, Will Schofield, James Thomson
Rookie Elevation- Steven Armstrong, Matt Priddis

2005
National Draft- Shannon Hurn, Ben McKinley, Matt Spangher
Rookie Elevation- Jaymie Graham

2004
National Draft- Matt Rosa, Mark LeCras, Mitch Morton*, Brad Smith
Rookie Elevation- Brett Jones

2003
National Draft- Beau Waters, Sam Butler, Daniel McConnell
Rookie Elevation- Zach Beeck, Mark Nicoski

2002
National Draft- Paul Johnson, Brent Staker, Adam Selwood
Rookie Elevation- Quinten Lynch
Trade- Damien Adkins, Daniel Chick

2001
National Draft- Chris Judd, Ashley Sampi, Mark Seaby, Ashley Hansen
Pre Season- Troy Wilson

To me it's pretty obvious that West Coast as a club lost the courage to recruit from around the country after 2007. And that has to play a massive role in why West Coast has gone from a strong club on and off the field to a mediocre club only interested with the balance sheet.
 
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I can't see how your article relates to the thread title. The question of whether the Judd trade (with Carlton, for Kennedy) is responsible for the state of the WCE list isn't referred to once. I say no it is not.
 

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I can't see how your article relates to the thread title. The question of whether the Judd trade (with Carlton, for Kennedy) is responsible for the state of the WCE list isn't referred to once. I say no it is not.

Look at the drafts.
After the Judd trade, West Coast recruiters have recruited under the policy of WA first unless there is someone obviously better.

And it's greatly reduced the talent pool avaliable.
 
Very well constructed OP to build a concise argument. Kudos.

It would be a very naive attitude to try and recruit against 'go home' factor after one player decided to leave. Recruiters should only really be considering two things most of the time which are team needs and how the players are ranked in the draft. Sometimes players are so talented that teams must recruit them despite team needs. Best example of this would be the Giants drafting Tom Boyd at pick 1 last year despite having a very talented forward-line as is.
 
West Coast had a horrid culture at the time, Judd was the best player in the league and could basically hand pick where he went. Being such a 'square' for lack of a better term, its pretty natural that he got out of there

Go Home is definately a factor, but some of the best players the game has seen have come from outside Victoria

West Coast apparently got the better end of that deal, but the results prove otherwise, so maybe its more to do with their list development than their drafting.

They should be taking the best available players. Look at Boak, knocked back coming to Geelong when they were at the top and Port were battling.

West Coast (and most interstate clubs) need to woo their draftees. If West Coast drafted vic players, and presented a club that they wanted to play at, they wouldnt leave.
 
Interesting study. Have there been first round picks where that Eagles had taken where the player wasn't rated around that pick? My impression from draft threads has been that Eagles supporters have felt the club has largely done well at the draft, it has only been years later that they aren't happy with the players.

Flight risk is always a factor, it is why I am surprised interstate clubs do not hit Vic Country harder, it is not like coming back to Melbourne is going bring them any closer to their family in most scenarios.
 
It's an interesting hypothesis. On the face of it it does look like the Judd move scared them away from non WA kids. Seems pretty stupid really because it was pretty obvious it wasn't just the go home factor that caused Judd to leave.

But it's hard to say definitely that this is what happened.

Also I'm not sure separating Vic Metro and Vic Country serves much point in this exercise.
 
15/22 of the 2006 premiership side were from WA.

The state of our list is due to poor recruitment and development. Simple as that.

poor coaching and drafting more like it.

Is poor drafting linked to mostly restricting ourselves to Western Australians?

West Coast seem to give the go home factor a higher weighting than other clubs when recruiting.

Also I'm not sure separating Vic Metro and Vic Country serves much point in this exercise.

I was curious if (as Tas pointed out) non Victorian clubs were more likely to recruit from Vic Country instead of Vic Metro to avoid the go home factor.
 
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Is poor drafting linked to mostly restrecting ourselves to Western Australians?

West Coast seem to give the go home factor a higher weighting than other clubs when recruiting.

This is true and the real reason why the AFL won't do SoO, Victorians are just born more talented and better looking.
 
I think it just stands to reason that a clubs recruiting resources will be stronger in their home state, which leads to this situation.

We do have a shitload of WA lads though. Thankfully we're an awesome club and none of them ever want to go home.


The charts in the OP show that WCE are a massive outlier when it comes to home state bias though.
 
The charts in the OP show that WCE are a massive outlier when it comes to home state bias though.

True - but then I'm not sure there were clearly superior first round options when we chose to spend them on players like Masten, Sheppard, Naitanui etc. The obvious one is Fyfe in the Sheppard draft but even Freo overlooked him the first time too and Fyfe wasn't rated anywhere near the top 10.

We stuffed up with Weedon, Newman and co, but they were well-rated prospects (who for different reasons failed), and around that number picks tend to be more speculative anyway and no-one would blame us for speculating on a WA player.
 
I don't think the WA recuiting bias is necessarily hurting them, but the fact that the best of WA's young talent is being taken in each draft prior to West Coast's pick is what's really doing them in. Seems like WA as a state has two-three young guns go in the top 10 every year, yet they rarely fall to the Eagles. If they'd been able to somehow land a David Swallow, or Harley Bennell, or Jaeger O'Meara, or Stephen Coniglio, things might look a little different going forward.

Also, this might be a controversial thought, but considering West Coast's needs at the moment (outside speed, footskills), may it have been a better choice to go with Stephen Hill over Nic Naitanui in 2008?
 
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True - but then I'm not sure there were clearly superior first round options when we chose to spend them on players like Masten, Sheppard, Naitanui etc. The obvious one is Fyfe in the Sheppard draft but even Freo overlooked him the first time too and Fyfe wasn't rated anywhere near the top 10.

We stuffed up with Weedon, Newman and co, but they were well-rated prospects (who for different reasons failed), and around that number picks tend to be more speculative anyway and no-one would blame us for speculating on a WA player.

Another thing worth looking at is trading. West Coast have traded for a few 'list-cloggers' over the past few years. While they didn't give much up for players such as Cale Morton and Jamie Bennell come to mind. Not to mention more expensive trades like Sharod Wellingham who hasn't set the world on fire by any means at the Eagles. Then there was last years trade with collingwood which saw you give up pick 6 and 44 for 11, 31, and 49 back. This got you Yeo, Sheed, and another trade, whether this was the correct move by west coast or not is still unknown but I have to say that every player I have mentioned in this post were Western Australians.

So when you went for Wellingham you denied yourself a player like Brodie Grundy or Ben Kennedy (both SA)

When you gave up 6 you denied yourself a shot at James Aish (SA)

When you traded 31 for Yeo you missed out on drafting a player like Jay Kennedy-Harris (Vic)

Like I said earlier, the ultimate outcome of these decisions is still unknown. Two years from now we could look back and praise West Coasts recruiting. However there is a very clear aversion from West Coast to recruit non-Western Australians.
 
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Well, Yeo and Bennell are proving effective and Sheed is still developing but has promise. I don't think we were ever going to draft Grundy even if we had the opportunity. Aish hurts but there is a reason why Sheed was rated as much as him and we took a calculated gamble on him sliding to 11.

As you pointed out, the ultimate outcomes of our recruiting and trading the past couple of seasons is still unknown, but I'm backing it. Easy to be wrong with the benefit of hindsight but I think, if all other things are equal, opting for the WA based player is the right thing to do - and that it wasn't Judd developing homesickness that prompted a change in tack - we still have Gaff, Lycett, Shuey, Karpany etc being drafted.
 
Well, Yeo and Bennell are proving effective and Sheed is still developing but has promise. I don't think we were ever going to draft Grundy even if we had the opportunity. Aish hurts but there is a reason why Sheed was rated as much as him and we took a calculated gamble on him sliding to 11.

As you pointed out, the ultimate outcomes of our recruiting and trading the past couple of seasons is still unknown, but I'm backing it. Easy to be wrong with the benefit of hindsight but I think, if all other things are equal, opting for the WA based player is the right thing to do - and that it wasn't Judd developing homesickness that prompted a change in tack - we still have Gaff, Lycett, Shuey, Karpany etc being drafted.

I agree that there is a natural logic behind picking the WA player. That is why Adelaide, Fremantle and Port Adelaide also favour their home states.

But there is a big difference between us and the number of locals we have in our team and the number that those three sides have.

Over the last 5 years we've brought in 5 non Western Australians.
 
Is poor drafting linked to mostly restrecting ourselves to Western Australians?

West Coast seem to give the go home factor a higher weighting than other clubs when recruiting.



I was curious if (as Tas pointed out) non Victorian clubs were more likely to recruit from Vic Country instead of Vic Metro to avoid the go home factor.

you're 100% right there yet i don't blame the eagles for doing it.
 

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Is the Judd trade responsible for the state of the WCE list?

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