Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

[theasian]

You’re splitting hairs. The key fact is it wasn’t the IDF on the available evidence.

Well it's not splitting hairs. One should be able to identify the proper group resposible.

While it looks increasingly likely that IDF wasn't responsible , it will not be accepted by the Arab states, until it's proven so by an independent Investigation given Israel's past history of assigning blame on attacks to the Palestinians, but later proven otherwise upon independent investigations. Therefore the skepticism will remain.

And that will not help Israel at all.

 

[sherb]

Imagine if I started saying it was actually Hamas that killed all of them and any evidence to the contrary was lies.


That is what is going on in this thread in reverse over the hospital explosion. It's disturbing.

Imagine if you actually reacted to an allegation that 1413 Palestinian children had been killed other than replying with "but, but, but Hamas..........."

And you have got the sheer gall to accuse others of not being neutral.

 

[Sir_Loin]

If you ever wanted a perfectly distilled example of confirmation bias, here it is!

In the last few posts you have been presented with evidence from legitimate news organisations disputing everything you say (beyond reasonable doubt my arse), that you choose to ignore?

Why does the owner of the hospital (the Anglican Church) call for people to wait for more facts

The UN is demanding an investigation. If the evidence is so clear why does Israel not allow that to happen?

Because they’re about the flatten the place. I thought that was obvious.

 

[Kurve]

No it happened

It was a social media influencer/personality that tweeted it? How would a social media influencer know when and where the IDF targets their bombs?

That's not proof it was the IDF, it's silly.

 

[Zidane98]

I’d just like to understand your post more. What’s the source and quote? Point it out and I’ll take a look.

You won't get a response. I wouldn't bother.

 

[Zidane98]

If you ever wanted a perfectly distilled example of confirmation bias, here it is!

In the last few posts you have been presented with evidence from legitimate news organisations disputing everything you say (beyond reasonable doubt my arse), that you choose to ignore?

Why does the owner of the hospital (the Anglican Church) call for people to wait for more facts

The UN is demanding an investigation. If the evidence is so clear why does Israel not allow that to happen?

Unlike you I have only cited facts here.


Something you clearly struggle to do.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Well it's not splitting hairs. One should be able to identify the proper group resposible.

While it looks increasingly likely that IDF wasn't responsible , it will not be accepted by the Arab states, until it's proven so by an independent Investigation given Israel's past history of assigning blame on attacks to the Palestinians, but later proven otherwise upon independent investigations. Therefore the skepticism will remain.

And that will not help Israel at all.

It doesn’t matter now. Those that are radicalised won’t believe a thing if it’s proven otherwise.

 

[Zidane98]

It was a social media influencer/personality that tweeted it? How would a social media influencer know when and where the IDF targets their bombs?

That's not proof it was the IDF, it's silly.

The logic of some.


A post from a social media influencer (which was also retracted with an explanation) is taken as absolute proof confirming Israel have done it.


The very same person presented with a plethora of facts which support the theory that a rocket fired from Gaza failed and exploded in the car park:


Nah, it's all lies. It can't be true.

 

[sherb]

I’d just like to understand your post more. What’s the source and quote? Point it out and I’ll take a look.

Posts 3846 & 3848 are the ones you are after. A couple of pages back.

 

[theasian]

It doesn’t matter now. Those that are radicalised won’t believe a thing if it’s proven otherwise.

It does matter to the Arab states.

The tolerance levels' of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt is very important.

The Hospital incident was enough to cancel Biden's summit with the Arab leaders.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Well it's not splitting hairs. One should be able to identify the proper group resposible.

While it looks increasingly likely that IDF wasn't responsible , it will not be accepted by the Arab states, until it's proven so by an independent Investigation given Israel's past history of assigning blame on attacks to the Palestinians, but later proven otherwise upon independent investigations. Therefore the skepticism will remain.

And that will not help Israel at all.

that will never happen.

There will never be concrete proof pointing one way or another. its as concrete as you will get that it wasn't Israel, more so who else it could have been? Hamas or another militant group.

It will only ever be what's most likely.

I think most Arab states you refer to are smarter than that. Most will know this wasn't Israel based on the available evidence.

 

[theasian]

Hananya Naftali works in the Israeli government as an aide to Bibi Netanyahu. It is not proof of anything, but makes up part of the story.

There is no conclusive proof on which party did it. So one should refrain from assigning absolute liability on either party, IDF or Palestinian Groups

 

[theasian]

This video analysis from Al Jazeera (the only source you have mentione so far), disputes the rocket claim with evidence.

It lasts for 3 and a half minutes.

To be honest, you cannot site Al-Jazeera as an impartial source.

 

[sherb]

According to documentation by Euro-Med Monitor, at least 4,079 Palestinians have been killed, including 1,413 children and 806 women, with approximately 3,420 civilians among the dead. More than 15,000 additional Palestinians have been injured in various ways, with more than half of them being children and women.

Israel destroys a quarter of northern Gaza Strip, Palestinian death toll exceeds 4,000 [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory

News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 19 Oct 2023 by Euro-Med Monitor

reliefweb.int

 

[Zidane98]

There is no conclusive proof on which party did it. So one should refrain from assigning absolute liability on either party, IDF or Palestinian Groups

The balance of evidence and factual information shows that it was caused by a failed rocket explosion. Until there's evidence provided to the contrary this should be the default position of anyone neutral to the matter.

 

[Carn The Berries]

USA havent done anything except park a warship offshore to their ally.

i dont get what point you are making? or failing to make.,

Thats the exact reason things like NATO were formed. Countries allying together to act as a deterrent.

I would argue that vetoing a UN security council resolution isn't "doing nothing".

 

[Zidane98]

Yes that's what I've been saying since the beginning. I am responding to a certain poster in this thread claiming there is absolute proof. Unless there is an independent investigation we will probably never know.

There's proof beyond reasonable doubt. You just cannot accept it because of your bias.

 

[Zidane98]

This video analysis from Al Jazeera (the only source you have mentione so far), disputes the rocket claim with evidence.

It lasts for 3 and a half minutes.

Al-Jazeera are a state owned media outlet of Qatar, who support Hamas ideologically and financially. You know this.


The video they made (inadvertently) is authentic.


The explanation is laughable. They had to come up with something as they threw PIJ / Hamas under the bus.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I would argue that vetoing a UN security council resolution isn't "doing nothing".

The context was around the US having military in the area.

In regards to that as a seperate issue, i agree with you.

 

[Kurve]

Hananya Naftali works in the Israeli government as an aide to Bibi Netanyahu. It is not proof of anything, but makes up part of the story.

They should fire him, he's an idiot. Bibi wouldn't even know if it was the IDF. Nobody knows for certain who was responsible but IDFs bombs are so big they can collapse entire apartment buildings that fall in on themselves, in under two seconds. All the air is sucked out of the space entirely, nothing to fuel an immediate fire.

When you look at that rocket which was launched from inside Gaza, it failed, did a wobbly and turned where you can see it's trajectory back towards where it came from before hitting the carpark causing a massive and immediate fireball.

The loss of life is appalling regardless of where it came from so really I'm just adding to the noise arguing over it when I'm not an expert and the whole thing is revolting.

 

[candyapple]

Al-Jazeera are a state owned media outlet of Qatar, who support Hamas ideologically and financially. You know this.


The video they made (inadvertently) is authentic.


The explanation is laughable. They had to come up with something as they threw PIJ / Hamas under the bus.

Its absolute garbage, Iron Dome doesn't destroy rockets when they are launched.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

They should fire him, he's an idiot. Bibi wouldn't even know if it was the IDF. Nobody knows for certain who was responsible but IDFs bombs are so big they can collapse entire apartment buildings that fall in on themselves, in under two seconds. All the air is sucked out of the space entirely, nothing to fuel an immediate fire.

When you look at that rocket which was launched from inside Gaza, it failed, did a wobbly and turned where you can see it's trajectory back towards where it came from before hitting the carpark causing a massive and immediate fireball.

The loss of life is appalling regardless of where it came from so really I'm just adding to the noise arguing over it when I'm not an expert and the whole thing is revolting.

Which is exactly the likely theory that the damage is consistent with a rocket failing with a high fuel load still in it.

It is totally inconsistent with an air strike for the reasons you have outlined.

saying its Israel is a complete lack of critical thinking.

You can still critique Israel for what they have done and are doing and still apply basic logic. Saying this was not Israel's fault does not alleviate them from everything else they are doing wrong.

 

[theasian]

This is the latest US position.

Even they are not absolutely sure.

So no point folks on Big Footy fighting over who did it.


According to the US intelligence document, “Israel probably did not bomb [the] Gaza Strip hospital,” and the United States is continuing “to work to corroborate whether the explosion resulted from a failed PIJ [Palestine Islamic Jihad] rocket.”

The document also says there was “only light structural damage at the hospital,” with “no observable damage to the main hospital building and no impact craters.”

AFP correspondents at the scene saw dozens of bodies, with medics and civilians recovering bodies wrapped in white cloth, blankets or black plastic bags. Bloodstains and torched cars could be seen in the hospital courtyard.

Images of the hospital after the explosion published by the Maxar satellite monitoring group show the hospital buildings mainly appeared to be intact

(Source Guardian)

 

[Zidane98]

Ok so the UN, Al Jazeera, Reuters and the Anglican Church are all wrong?

I feel you are being deliberately deceptive here. You know that Al-Jazeera captured the failed rocket attack on camera and subsequent explosion. You're trying to ignore that and accept a laughable explanation from a news organisation that is on the side of Hamas.


The Anglican Church are absolutely not an organisation to cite on this. I doubt anyone who works for them would have any idea what a rocket explosion looks like.

And Reuters are not saying it is an Israeli air strike any more. I can accept someone thinking it was before being in knowledge of the facts.


But to sit here , be in knowledge of the facts and still double down on it is simply excusing the actions of PIJ / Hamas here. Soirry but it just is.

 

[Zidane98]

Its absolute garbage, Iron Dome doesn't destroy rockets when they are launched.

Yes, this is a well known fact. Iron dome is also easily visible from miles away. Not a single video footage of an iron dome launch, even on their video!!! Only someone that has an extreme bias are going to not cite the Al-Jazeera news feed but accept their quite obviously bs explanation. They are a media outlet for Hamas' financial backers.