Traded Jordan Clark and F4 traded to Fremantle for #22 and F3 (Carl)

[CatToTheFuture]

Will either turn out to be better than Cerra or a total bust.

What if Cerra turns into a bust?

 

[dazbroncos]

Personally think Clark would have made his way into the team if he was as good as you think he is. Geelong would find a way to play him in the team and they still have their share of roleplayers getting games ahead of him. Plenty of players show a lot early then never go anywhere, IF he wants to go and IF Geelong let him go then I it would surely be on the trading line between the Jack Higgins and the Fogarty trades.

But whos is he gonna push out?

Kolo? Atkins? 2E? MOC?

Whether Chris Scott is right or wrong, he said using Constable as the example, that you have to be able to replace and play better than the person in the spot now. Wings are currently Menegola, Duncan when fit and Smith. And he's not taking their spot on current VFL form.

So then if he goes back, Atkins and Bews play small defender first roles and Clark as a younger player has spent his time to this point using his natural skills and ability to get out of trouble in games. In the AFL IMO, now thats not enough for him and he needs more defensive accountability and he's struggling with it. But he's getting better at it too in the VFL.

IMO he knows he has to bide his time.

And maybe he'd be getting games at Freo right with the lower bar you have - maybe not - but he's still required at GFC. Maybe that changes at season end - who knows - but id suggest we are keen to keep him as he get games when Smith, Menegola, Duncan, Bews, 2E, Atkins move around as we lose the players have over 30. And Higgins spot could be open as soon as 2022 so there's one without really trying.

GO Catters

 

[Shadow89]

Geelong are under no obligation to trade him, if they trade him it’s because it benefits them more than keeping him on the list one more year

Which tbh, I doubt there is any, given some of the suggestions being floated here. He was pick 15 in a much stronger draft, and is only not playing regularly because we have so much senior depth.

With that said, I daresay it would have been communicated to him that our short term vs long term strategy, is with players like him in mind. Selwood will retire end of next year, Tuohy has one or two years left, Hawkin's has one or two left, Smith and Higgins were only brought in for two years (but Smith could go another one the way he looks), Stanley will retire end of this year etc.

All are different positions, but I think of 'top ups' like Higgins and Smith, and instead of going for someone like Phillips who was on our radar, we went for someone short term while we were in our window. I daresay that's due to us wanting to develop them in the two's, and then get them a good enough level to eventually replace those type of players.

When you look at our team for this weekend, it's completely stacked for the extended bench, with Cameron and Duncan to return too. Once our slew of retirements starts (as early as this year depending on what happens), then you'll start to see players like Clark get more and more games. Not even Narkle and someone like Holmes who we drafted last year - who looks absolutely elite in the 2nds - can get a run at it at the moment, due to the depth we currently have.

Let's not forget, he still played most of the first half of this season, and has already played 30 games over the space of his first 3 seasons - it's not exactly horrible exposure for a brand new draftee in a flag contending side.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

But whos is he gonna push out?

Kolo? Atkins? 2E? MOC?

Whether Chris Scott is right or wrong, he said using Constable as the example, that you have to be able to replace and play better than the person in the spot now. Wings are currently Menegola, Duncan when fit and Smith. And he's not taking their spot on current VFL form.

So then if he goes back, Atkins and Bews play small defender first roles and Clark as a younger player has spent his time to this point using his natural skills and ability to get out of trouble in games. In the AFL IMO, now thats not enough for him and he needs more defensive accountability and he's struggling with it. But he's getting better at it too in the VFL.

IMO he knows he has to bide his time.

And maybe he'd be getting games at Freo right with the lower bar you have - maybe not - but he's still required at GFC. Maybe that changes at season end - who knows - but id suggest we are keen to keep him as he get games when Smith, Menegola, Duncan, Bews, 2E, Atkins move around as we lose the players have over 30. And Higgins spot could be open as soon as 2022 so there's one without really trying.

GO Catters

Elite players find a way to get into a side. Atkins and Bews are good role players, if he's as good as Sherriff was saying, he'd push them out and make a role for himself.

At the end of the day, he's not doing enough to push himself into the side, that says something about his value/quality.

I dont pretend to know what Geelong's plans for him are or if he's required or what not so I'm not going to speculate on that. If he asks to go and is traded, you've decided you are better off (and there is lots of pro's/cons weighing up that would lead to that decision) releasing him then keeping him on the list for another 12 months.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I don't think I have any depth of knowledge about your salary cap but considering your list make up it seems you are likely to be close to the cap. You have players that are heading to retirement but you also have players that are going to negotiate bigger contracts (Parfitt, Close, Guthrie, Kolodjashnij, Clark). If they're not signing on for the same amount the deals are going to have to be manipulated to for in with the players leaving in the coming few years. Just because some players (notable ones being Selwood, Hawkins and Tuohy) might retire it doesn't mean the space that opens for the proceeding year is the same as what they were being paid.

It's not inconceivable but with non-disclosure of player salaries we won't know until it plays out.

I mean sure we can't know for certain because it's not disclosed but we're losing Tom Hawkins level cash and signing Cam Guthrie level cash. If we don't have a yawning chasm of cap space in 2023 without adding new players I'll be astonished

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Which tbh, I doubt there is any, given some of the suggestions being floated here. He was pick 15 in a much stronger draft, and is only not playing regularly because we have so much senior depth.

With that said, I daresay it would have been communicated to him that our short term vs long term strategy, is with players like him in mind. Selwood will retire end of next year, Tuohy has one or two years left, Hawkin's has one or two left, Smith and Higgins were only brought in for two years (but Smith could go another one the way he looks), Stanley will retire end of this year etc.

All are different positions, but I think of 'top ups' like Higgins and Smith, and instead of going for someone like Phillips who was on our radar, we went for someone short term while we were in our window. I daresay that's due to us wanting to develop them in the two's, and then get them a good enough level to eventually replace those type of players.

When you look at our team for this weekend, it's completely stacked for the extended bench, with Cameron and Duncan to return too. Once our slew of retirements starts (as early as this year depending on what happens), then you'll start to see players like Clark get more and more games. Not even Narkle and someone like Holmes who we drafted last year - who looks absolutely elite in the 2nds - can get a run at it at the moment, due to the depth we currently have.

Let's not forget, he still played most of the first half of this season, and has already played 30 games over the space of his first 3 seasons - it's not exactly horrible exposure for a brand new draftee in a flag contending side.

Yep, the only exception I'd say to this is Clark does get some say in what he wants. Geelong can communicate plans for him and what not but if he tells them he wants to be traded whether that's this year or next then Geelong makes the choice on what works best for them.

 

[Shadow89]

Yep, the only exception I'd say to this is Clark does get some say in what he wants. Geelong can communicate plans for him and what not but if he tells them he wants to be traded whether that's this year or next then Geelong makes the choice on what works best for them.

No arguments there! He does have a very good relationship with the captain, and is well supported/liked amongst the group, so I daresay he stays on next year and we reassess

 

[dazbroncos]

Elite players find a way to get into a side. Atkins and Bews are good role players, if he's as good as Sherriff was saying, he'd push them out and make a role for himself.

At the end of the day, he's not doing enough to push himself into the side, that says something about his value/quality.

I dont pretend to know what Geelong's plans for him are or if he's required or what not so I'm not going to speculate on that. If he asks to go and is traded, you've decided you are better off (and there is lots of pro's/cons weighing up that would lead to that decision) releasing him then keeping him on the list for another 12 months.

Hes not elite however. He's played 20 odds games and is in his what 3rd year. Tom Stewart is elite. Fyfe is elite. Cerra might be one day. Sam Walsh is elite.

If you are ranking him elite them more power to you - but by that mark you have about 500 players in the AFL are elite.

GO Catters

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Hes not elite however. He's played 20 odds games and is in his what 3rd year. Tom Stewart is elite. Fyfe is elite. Cerra might be one day. Sam Walsh is elite.

If you are ranking him elite them more power to you - but by that mark you have about 500 players in the AFL are elite.

GO Catters

I suppose I could be more specific, good young players find a way to be in the best 25 of any team within 3 years which goes back to my original response to Sherrif that I think he is overstating his value and output to date. "Elite" is just easier to say though

 

[dazbroncos]

I suppose I could be more specific, good young players find a way to be in the best 25 of any team within 3 years which goes back to my original response to Sherrif that I think he is overstating his value and output to date. "Elite" is just easier to say though

I think he is a good young player trying to break into a side that has made a PF, made a PF and made a GF and lost at each stage.
Breaking into a bottom 8 side is naturally easier than a side finishing as we have.
The kid can play - and play well - but this 22 is a hard nut to crack. Id even suggest that at times he should have been playing more than he has - but CS has his defensive things he wants to see. Dahl gets games bc of defensive work and Clark is lacking in that. Without derailing the thread, Constable and Narkle have the same issues IMO.

Point being, its hard to get games but he will if he stays the course and we have spots open up. If not, whomever he goes to will benefit from his development.

GO Catters

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

There would be players on the list at GC getting much the same as some of those names. Just how much are you willing to cough up to play in a group that each week expects to win.

No idea. It's obviously going to depend on the individual and circumstances both personal and team-wise. A Selwood-Hawkins-TuohyHenderson-Stanley-Smith-Higgins-less Geelong with post-peak careers of Dangerfield and Duncan might sway them.

I mean sure we can't know for certain because it's not disclosed but we're losing Tom Hawkins level cash and signing Cam Guthrie level cash. If we don't have a yawning chasm of cap space in 2023 without adding new players I'll be astonished

I've no clue what Hawkins is on at the moment. I haven't watch a heap of neutral games as I can barely watch a Hinkley-coached Port but Guthrie (and I may be biased as I had him in Fantasy until his injury) looked your best mid other than Duncan this year. If he has another BnF win he should be able to negotiate a pretty good contract. FWIW not saying they have similar worth as players, the lack of clarity on contracts, front/back ended deals and the past rumours about the paycuts some players took when negotiating new deals to keep the band together clouds everything.

 

[Turbocat]

But whos is he gonna push out?

Kolo? Atkins? 2E? MOC?

Whether Chris Scott is right or wrong, he said using Constable as the example, that you have to be able to replace and play better than the person in the spot now. Wings are currently Menegola, Duncan when fit and Smith. And he's not taking their spot on current VFL form.

So then if he goes back, Atkins and Bews play small defender first roles and Clark as a younger player has spent his time to this point using his natural skills and ability to get out of trouble in games. In the AFL IMO, now thats not enough for him and he needs more defensive accountability and he's struggling with it. But he's getting better at it too in the VFL.

IMO he knows he has to bide his time.

And maybe he'd be getting games at Freo right with the lower bar you have - maybe not - but he's still required at GFC. Maybe that changes at season end - who knows - but id suggest we are keen to keep him as he get games when Smith, Menegola, Duncan, Bews, 2E, Atkins move around as we lose the players have over 30. And Higgins spot could be open as soon as 2022 so there's one without really trying.

GO Catters

Exactly.

And have a look at the obvious preference for hard big bodies... perhaps Holmes as he is a light player.

Probably an ideal trade is Clark to Collingwood and Henry back. similar draft picks. They are playing kids and want to get games into them. Different window.

 

[Turbocat]

No idea. It's obviously going to depend on the individual and circumstances both personal and team-wise. A Selwood-Hawkins-TuohyHenderson-Stanley-Smith-Higgins-less Geelong with post-peak careers of Dangerfield and Duncan might sway them.


I've no clue what Hawkins is on at the moment. I haven't watch a heap of neutral games as I can barely watch a Hinkley-coached Port but Guthrie (and I may be biased as I had him in Fantasy until his injury) looked your best mid other than Duncan this year. If he has another BnF win he should be able to negotiate a pretty good contract. FWIW not saying they have similar worth as players, the lack of clarity on contracts, front/back ended deals and the past rumours about the paycuts some players took when negotiating new deals to keep the band together clouds everything.

I'd say most players are willing to give up ..perhaps 25% to play in a winning configuration

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

I'd say most players are willing to give up ..perhaps 25% to play in a winning configuration

I would be shocked if this was true. Maybe someone of the stature of Dangerfield or Selwood who would still be in the top 10-20% best paid players and will make a mint outside/after their footy careers are done that want the legacy of persistent success. I just can't believe a majority of players would do this unless they travel back in time to join a mid-dynasty team.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I would be shocked if this was true. Maybe someone of the stature of Dangerfield or Selwood who would still be in the top 10-20% best paid players and will make a mint outside/after their footy careers are done that want the legacy of persistent success. I just can't believe a majority of players would do this unless they travel back in time to join a mid-dynasty team.

It's not just players at that level though. Widely reported (take with grain of salt) that Jenkins basically took his final contract year at the crows and split it over two years at the cats. Similar reporting around Jack Steven. Reported Isaac Smiths contract at the cats was a year less than at Melbourne and the lowest dollar per year of the three suitors though apparently similar.

Obviously can't take media to the bank but it's fairly consistent on players taking pay cuts to come to the cats. Whatever that's worth

 

[sherrif]

Every club could potentially have a Sal Cap consideration when trading. Some more than others but it has been speculated that it would cool if not ice the trade period this year.

Clarks talent is there, its more about him learning to max it in the geelong system. I hope by the end of his contract that has been acquired, so unless there is a big advantage to trading him..I cant see why we do it. Would we trade him for Freo's R1? I doubt Freo offer that or that it would appeal to us ...so it gets down to what would persuade them to action a trade.

You do it if you have salary cap issues. With your recruiting last off season that would be highly likely in my opinion. Well your coach has said that Clark might look to get traded as he is struggling for opportunity. No way freo offers a first rounder. Meek is a big strong ruckman (the one thing your list doesn't have) who did well against established ruckman when he played earlier this year. Him and a second rounder would be a fair trade in my opinion.

 

[sherrif]

Elite players find a way to get into a side. Atkins and Bews are good role players, if he's as good as Sherriff was saying, he'd push them out and make a role for himself.

At the end of the day, he's not doing enough to push himself into the side, that says something about his value/quality.

I dont pretend to know what Geelong's plans for him are or if he's required or what not so I'm not going to speculate on that. If he asks to go and is traded, you've decided you are better off (and there is lots of pro's/cons weighing up that would lead to that decision) releasing him then keeping him on the list for another 12 months.

The start of his career is very similar to Jack Steele who played 17 games his first two years on a list. Clark's had injuries. Allowing he gets a decent run with injury I think he'll be a gun and its not actually true that good players simply get a game no matter what. Tom Mitchell was dropped early on at Sydney despite winning a heap of footy. Josh Kennedy at the Swans dominating for Hawthorn at VFL level is another good comparison as he struggled to get a game due to Hawthorn's inside mid depth.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

The start of his career is very similar to Jack Steele who played 17 games his first two years on a list. Clark's had injuries. Allowing he gets a decent run with injury I think he'll be a gun and its not actually true that good players simply get a game no matter what. Tom Mitchell was dropped early on at Sydney despite winning a heap of footy. Josh Kennedy at the Swans dominating for Hawthorn at VFL level is another good comparison as he struggled to get a game due to Hawthorn's inside mid depth.

Tom Mitchell played 19 games averaging 26 touches in his third year. Kennedy had been traded then and played every game but at least played 10 for the Hawks the year he was traded.

Think it’s a long bow to compare them to Clark. You might be right and he turns into a gun but history is against him and the other two were traded with far more runs on the board anyway whereby I feel a 2nd and Meek would be overkill yet alone something you’d jump at

 

[CatToTheFuture]

You do it if you have salary cap issues. With your recruiting last off season that would be highly likely in my opinion. Well your coach has said that Clark might look to get traded as he is struggling for opportunity. No way freo offers a first rounder. Meek is a big strong ruckman (the one thing your list doesn't have) who did well against established ruckman when he played earlier this year. Him and a second rounder would be a fair trade in my opinion.

Have you seen our age profile? Who exactly are we spending cap on after 2022? If we don't have cap issues now I don’t see how we will next year.

 

[The 747]

I would be shocked if this was true. Maybe someone of the stature of Dangerfield or Selwood who would still be in the top 10-20% best paid players and will make a mint outside/after their footy careers are done that want the legacy of persistent success. I just can't believe a majority of players would do this unless they travel back in time to join a mid-dynasty team.

OK so here is how it works as far as I can work out from outside the club:

As a starting point we don't pay our AFL players as much as other clubs do - this is offset by the fact that it is cheaper to live in the area than in Melbourne.

We pay based on length of service, with some adjustments for outstanding performance at AFL level.

If a player gets a contract after the initial draftee contract (and we are ruthless in cutting them and/or often move them to the rookie list) they get paid quite well, you would be shocked how much we pay essentially VFL level players.

A player's earning potential maxes out around 28-31 and then decreases, so Guthrie for example is due for the biggest contract he will get from us.

Therefore whenever we delist, we gain significant salary cap space from cutting VFL level players. Which enables us to acquire free agents or experienced players via trade.

Because the pay structure is flat and transparent, the players buy into it. I can't remember the last player we lost for financial reasons (aside from GAJ who got an offer he couldn't refuse).

 

[sherrif]

Have you seen our age profile? Who exactly are we spending cap on after 2022? If we don't have cap issues now I don’t see how we will next year.

You'll have to resign Henderson on a decent contract. Guthrie is also due a pay rise after his last two seasons and he is still unsigned. Shaun Higgins is unsigned. PLus very handy players in Narkle, Close, Miers and Rohan all unsigned. Your salary cap would have had to be stretched with your raid on experienced players last year. Guthrie and Henderson will both require pay rises to keep. I cant see how you can keep everyone if there is a decent deal for Clark I think he goes.

 

[cats_09]

You'll have to resign Henderson on a decent contract. Guthrie is also due a pay rise after his last two seasons and he is still unsigned. Shaun Higgins is unsigned. PLus very handy players in Narkle, Close, Miers and Rohan all unsigned. Your salary cap would have had to be stretched with your raid on experienced players last year. Guthrie and Henderson will both require pay rises to keep. I cant see how you can keep everyone if there is a decent deal for Clark I think he goes.

Guessing you're going off the footwire contact listings

Firstly, why would we want Henderson to resign? He may be re-signed & retained on the rookie list for a 3rd season or maybe he retires - let's wait to see what he wants

Higgins is actually contracted for next season - signed a 2-year deal when he joined the club last year, and think it's been confirmed that North is paying a portion of his salary, so we don't actually need to do anything with him

Also, reports from earlier this week that Miers has agreed to terms on a new deal

 

[CatToTheFuture]

You'll have to resign Henderson on a decent contract. Guthrie is also due a pay rise after his last two seasons and he is still unsigned. Shaun Higgins is unsigned. PLus very handy players in Narkle, Close, Miers and Rohan all unsigned. Your salary cap would have had to be stretched with your raid on experienced players last year. Guthrie and Henderson will both require pay rises to keep. I cant see how you can keep everyone if there is a decent deal for Clark I think he goes.

We're not keeping everyone though. That's how retirement works. Clark is contracted to a point where the retirements start hitting the wall fast. Guthrie a pay bump sure, maybe Miers. But outside that the players you named are all middling contracts or gone by the time Clark is out of contract.

 

[sherrif]

Guessing you're going off the footwire contact listings

Firstly, why would we want Henderson to resign? He may be re-signed & retained on the rookie list for a 3rd season or maybe he retires - let's wait to see what he wants

Higgins is actually contracted for next season - signed a 2-year deal when he joined the club last year, and think it's been confirmed that North is paying a portion of his salary, so we don't actually need to do anything with him

Also, reports from earlier this week that Miers has agreed to terms on a new deal

Stanley is another not resigned. Cant see Henderson not getting a pay rise. He's been terrific this year for you guys. Yep Higgins signed a two year deal, but I cant see how your salary cap can't be even more stretched compared to a year ago. Esava Ratugolea and Guthrie (who will resign) are two payers who would have had to of received pay rises.

 

[cats_09]

Stanley is another not resigned. Cant see Henderson not getting a pay rise. He's been terrific this year for you guys. Yep Higgins signed a two year deal, but I cant see how your salary cap can't be even more stretched compared to a year ago. Esava Ratugolea and Guthrie (who will resign) are two payers who would have had to of received pay rises.

We may not actually re-sign all our out of contract players, and maybe there'll be a surprised retirement or 2

As for Stanley - he turns 31 this year & is he does re-sign then I doubt it'll be on a big contract, especially as we've already seen him over looked this season for Ratugolea

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Stanley is another not resigned. Cant see Henderson not getting a pay rise. He's been terrific this year for you guys. Yep Higgins signed a two year deal, but I cant see how your salary cap can't be even more stretched compared to a year ago. Esava Ratugolea and Guthrie (who will resign) are two payers who would have had to of received pay rises.

Hendo may get a pay rise but he's still rookie listed. Good chunk week be outside the cap. Plus his replacement is in the 2s ready to take over probably next year anyway. Stanley only a few weeks ago was looking like short odds of being put out to pasture, not sure what basis he has to ask for a bump. Sav probably a pay increase but he's getting a contract on potential not output so that shouldn't be hugely expensive either. If you want to know how we can attract and retain players is probably through leadership doing things like this:

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