Coach Justin Longmuir Pt 2

[Lach72]

I agree with all of that, players make the difference when it comes to the game plan which is why it's up to the coach of each side to implement a gameplan that suits the players they have. We aren't GWS who are also a high handball side, we don't have the same level of ball users that they have. So instead of trying to push a style on a side that doesn't fit it we need to be making changes to the style or as you said the players. If we land Bolton and Kozzie I imagine everything suddenly looks a lot better, will that be enough to counter when the pressure goes up in close games/finals, who knows but I hope we get to see if it does in 2025.

Yeah but we’ve seen, even now, how the ball just streams back out of our forward line controlled ball movement.

Just saying that even more chaotic ball movement this year May have been worse

 

[dont bowl there]

Yeah but we’ve seen, even now, how the ball just streams back out of our forward line controlled ball movement.

Just saying that even more chaotic ball movement this year May have been worse

I'm not arguing for chaos ball, but we do need to add some hard edge to the game plan. Right now it's handball until we find an open player, which in fairness seems to work a lot of the time. When it doesn't is when the games get tight and the pressure goes up. In any case 2025 is going to be a make or break season for JLo and I'm sure he knows it as well. I'm confident he will make some changes to the way we play.

 

[malpaso]

I'm not arguing for chaos ball, but we do need to add some hard edge to the game plan. Right now it's handball until we find an open player, which in fairness seems to work a lot of the time. When it doesn't is when the games get tight and the pressure goes up. In any case 2025 is going to be a make or break season for JLo and I'm sure he knows it as well. I'm confident he will make some changes to the way we play.

Yeah, I mean any club that sits on their hands in the offseason is doomed for failure. We have made changes every season so far.

 

[Stinky Lomax]

Few stats from Wheelo, we rank:

1st for handball receives
2nd for uncontested possessions
3rd last for contested possessions (Only Eagles and Richmond below us)

Then people wonder why we struggle when the heat gets turned up late in games? The system isn't broken or unfixable but it's not all down to fumbles and missed shots at goal late. We overuse the ball way too much which is fine in a regular round 11 game but it's not going to work in finals or high pressure moments.

We are also ranked 18th for clangers & 15th for turnovers, so over the course of a game we’re not turning the ball over anymore than over teams & how does missed shots on goals come back to overusing handball?

We are also ranked 1 for disposal efficiency, being 2 for kicking efficiency & 1 for handball efficiency.

You can pull any stat you want, the bottom line is the connection between mid & forward still has a bit of work to do & any one of Bolton, Pickett & even Baker will help that. The Port game showed that when we were trying to run them down.

We’ve got 3 young key forwards & 2 of them had a below their best season in Jackson & Amiss & we didn’t get enough goals from our small forwards who work hard but don’t have that goal craft.

We cant just play like everyone else & copy their styles because we’ll forever 12 months behind the evolution of the game. It’s about coaching the strengths of the group & trying to get ahead of the curve.

 

[dont bowl there]

We are also ranked 1 for disposal efficiency, being 2 for kicking efficiency & 1 for handball efficiency.

You can pull any stat you want, the bottom line is the connection between mid & forward still has a bit of work to do & any one of Bolton, Pickett & even Baker will help that. The Port game showed that when we were trying to run them down.

We’ve got 3 young key forwards & 2 of them had a below their best season in Jackson & Amiss & we didn’t get enough goals from our small forwards who work hard but don’t have that goal craft.

We cant just play like everyone else & copy their styles because we’ll forever 12 months behind the evolution of the game. It’s about coaching the strengths of the group & trying to get ahead of the curve.

The connection seems off IMO because we are taking too long trying to find the perfect kick inside 50, that comes down to the overuse of handball in the middle area of the ground. You would hope with the introduction of Bolton and maybe Pickett we start to get the ball in a lot faster.

Again. Overall I don't have a huge issue with the style. I just think we need to work on a more contested brand and not worry so much on the perfect chain of possession which when the game heats up falls away.

 

[Stinky Lomax]

The connection seems off IMO because we are taking too long trying to find the perfect kick inside 50, that comes down to the overuse of handball in the middle area of the ground. You would hope with the introduction of Bolton and maybe Pickett we start to get the ball in a lot faster.

Again. Overall I don't have a huge issue with the style. I just think we need to work on a more contested brand and not worry so much on the perfect chain of possession which when the game heats up falls away.

You have no proof it falls away when the game heats up. You need to understand how contested & uncontested works. When we need to win the ball at the contest we’re one if the best but we don’t play a style that allows for as many contested ball opportunities as other teams.

We are about protecting the ball & the ball carrier.

We are #2 in clearances in the competition, that is contested ball. We can win contested ball, but we prefer to protect the ball & don’t smash it inside 50 because we don’t have the small forwards with the craft to capitalise, so for now we try to get isolated contests in there. You’ll find we will adjust if Pickett &/or Bolton come in.

 

[james haish]

Rubbish, that's what they did at the Pies and he was the defensive coach if I'm not mistaken?

Pies under Buckley were a low pressure team. Would drive Collingwood fans nuts that they corralled and zoned off instead of tackled. McCrae was a breath of fresh air for them because he made every game high intensity

 

[Fat Nyfe]

Here's a fun exercise. All 18 clubs cut ties with their current coach and all of them are put in a coaches draft. What number does JL get drafted?

I reckon 16. There's only 17 coaches, and he probably goes ahead of Nicks. Yze maybe but he's unproven, and I'd say unproven is better to most clubs than whatever JL has proven. It could be lower too, 'pass' might get a run before him.

 

[james haish]

You’ll find we will adjust if Pickett &/or Bolton come in.

And what if they don’t? Miss finals again?

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Here's a fun exercise. All 18 clubs cut ties with their current coach and all of them are put in a coaches draft. What number does JL get drafted?

I reckon 16. There's only 17 coaches, and he probably goes ahead of Nicks. Yze maybe but he's unproven, and I'd say unproven is better to most clubs than whatever JL has proven. It could be lower too, 'pass' might get a run before him.

That's extremely harsh. Kingsley has proven nothing, he has the most talent in the league, Cameron was just a complete potato. Bevo is absolutely underdelivering on that list. I wouldn't swap JL for either of those two. Ken needs to prove something this year or he's just a hack honestly. Brad Scott has done nothing. Voss is a hack

Actually, this is a flat out ridiculous take. The only coaches I will definitively say are better are McCrae, C Scott, Horse and Mitchell. The rest is a toss of the coin.

 

[Quazar2]

And what if they don’t? Miss finals again?

That's the end for Justin if they don't, if both Shai and Kossie are here. No way that team shouldn't be making finals, should have made it this year.

 

[james haish]

If we don't have the skill level to be pulling off the handballing game then shouldn't that be on the coach to make a change in style? We can't just assume it will all be OK once we get a bit older.

High handball hasn’t worked as a strategy since Clarkson, Lyon and Malthouse set about dismantling it to beat Geelong. And even then it only worked for teams with absolutely elite midfields (West Coast and Geelong). Our midfield isn’t in that standard.

Meanwhile uncontested footy only works if you’re an elite kicking team in every part of the ground (ie Hawthorn under Clarkson), and we’re clearly not. Even that Hawthorn team could change gears into pressure mode when finals demanded it

 

[Dockeroo]

That's the end for Justin if they don't, if both Shai and Kossie are here. No way that team shouldn't be making finals, should have made it this year.

This goes without saying.
We bring in Pickett and Bolton and everyone else is a year older, and we STILL don’t make finals?
He’s 100% gone. That would be indefensible.
Duff basically said the same thing the other day on SEN too.

What’s pleasing is the eastern states media are starting to murmur about how freo has too talented a list to be missing finals. That will only get louder if the trade targets come in.

 

[james haish]

That's extremely harsh. Kingsley has proven nothing, he has the most talent in the league, Cameron was just a complete potato. Bevo is absolutely underdelivering on that list. I wouldn't swap JL for either of those two. Ken needs to prove something this year or he's just a hack honestly. Brad Scott has done nothing. Voss is a hack

Actually, this is a flat out ridiculous take. The only coaches I will definitively say are better are McCrae, C Scott, Horse and Mitchell. The rest is a toss of the coin.

I wouldn’t have him back but IMO Lyon has a very mediocre list at St Kilda yet the past two seasons he’s had more wins than JL.

Someone like Fagan built the Lions into regular finals appearances from a lower point compared to when JL took over. Why is it taking so long?

 

[Fat Nyfe]

That's extremely harsh. Kingsley has proven nothing, he has the most talent in the league, Cameron was just a complete potato. Bevo is absolutely underdelivering on that list. I wouldn't swap JL for either of those two. Ken needs to prove something this year or he's just a hack honestly. Brad Scott has done nothing. Voss is a hack

Actually, this is a flat out ridiculous take. The only coaches I will definitively say are better are McCrae, C Scott, Horse and Mitchell. The rest is a toss of the coin.

You’re kidding if you don’t think every single club isn’t taking Kingsley over Longmuir if given the choice right now.
In fact saying there are only 4 coaches in the league better than JL is a much more ridiculous take than mine.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I wouldn’t have him back but IMO Lyon has a very mediocre list at St Kilda yet the past two seasons he’s had more wins than JL.

I really don't want to so the Lyon thing again on here, the cult of Lyon are very hard to discuss with.

To summarise:

• Ross is very good at getting a lot out of nothing
• His time at Freo was done, he needed a break to refresh
• He is a very good coach and the best we've had.
• I don't want to watch Rossball anymore.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

You’re kidding if you don’t think every single club isn’t taking Kingsley over Longmuir if given the choice right now.
In fact saying there are only 4 coaches in the league better than JL is a much more ridiculous take than mine.

Definitively better. Kingsley has proven nothing, top 4 is a minimum requirement having the GWS list.

 

[james haish]

I really don't want to so the Lyon thing again on here, the cult of Lyon are very hard to discuss with.

To summarise:

• Ross is very good at getting a lot out of nothing
• His time at Freo was done, he needed a break to refresh
• He is a very good coach and the best we've had.
• I don't want to watch Rossball anymore.

That’s all fine, but JL isn’t a better coach than him. This is clearly evident based on results.

 

[dont bowl there]

You have no proof it falls away when the game heats up. You need to understand how contested & uncontested works. When we need to win the ball at the contest we’re one if the best but we don’t play a style that allows for as many contested ball opportunities as other teams.

We are about protecting the ball & the ball carrier.

We are #2 in clearances in the competition, that is contested ball. We can win contested ball, but we prefer to protect the ball & don’t smash it inside 50 because we don’t have the small forwards with the craft to capitalise, so for now we try to get isolated contests in there. You’ll find we will adjust if Pickett &/or Bolton come in.

I hope that's the case. I will add that we have missed finals 4/5 seasons under JLo including the last two, so maybe just maybe the plan of holding the ball and playing an uncontested brand isn't the best way for the group to succeed. That's my issue, we are all happy to assume he will change the style when/if Pickett/Bolton are traded in but IMO he hasn't chosen the best style for this group. Why would we just assume he will next year?

 

[Fat Nyfe]

Definitively better. Kingsley has proven nothing, top 4 is a minimum requirement having the GWS list.

And he’s done that? Whereas we’ve failed our minimum requirement.

Anyway being ‘unproven’ is literally better than proving to be a dud.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

That’s all fine, but JL isn’t a better coach than him. This is clearly evident based on results.

We'll see, Rossball seems to have a definitive shelf life going off his other stints. Ross also come with more off-field requirements where he's the boss of everything which appears draining.

 

[james haish]

I hope that's the case. I will add that we have missed finals 4/5 seasons under JLo including the last two, so maybe just maybe the plan of holding the ball and playing an uncontested brand isn't the best way for the group to succeed. That's my issue, we are all happy to assume he will change the style when/if Pickett/Bolton are traded in but IMO he hasn't chosen the best style for this group. Why would we just assume he will next year?

What Stinky Lomax is arguing is that you can win a premiership playing a gamestyle that is the antithesis of every premiership winner in history - a high handball game, low on winning contested ball. This simply will not happen. Longmuir either changes his coaching or fails again.

 

[james haish]

We'll see, Rossball seems to have a definitive shelf life going off his other stints. Ross also come with more off-field requirements where he's the boss of everything which appears draining.

What’s the shelf life of JLo-ball?

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

And he’s done that? Whereas we’ve failed our minimum requirement.

Anyway being ‘unproven’ is literally better than proving to be a dud.

I think there is minimum difference between most head coaches, Kingsley isnt therefore automatically better because hes reached the minimum requirement, hes just not shit. Over a full season, anything can happen to just fail at a goal, it doesn't prove a coach is shit.

I don't agree he's a proven dud if you think he is that's the root of our disagreement.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

I think there is minimum difference between most head coaches, Kingsley isnt therefore automatically better because hes reached the minimum requirement, hes just not shit. Over a full season, anything can happen to just fail at a goal, it doesn't prove a coach is shit.

I don't agree he's a proven dud if you think he is that's the root of our disagreement.

I do think he’s a proven dud so we can agree to disagree.

But I understand why people are going to be resistant to realising it, no one wants to accept that we’ve invested half a decade into a mediocre coach.

It’s just going to be a painful tenure until the club comes to terms, because this list plus A-grade trade ins is absolutely good enough to carry him to week 1 finals action and people will be okay with that. When we should actually be eyeing off multiple grand final appearances and premiership challenges if we had that elite coach to cap off the elite list.