Liam Jurrah being held by police -Sen

[TheGreatGrundy]

I respect each groups right to their own culture, whatever I feel about the things they do.

If we all thought like you then the cruel practices of certain cultures would persist. There is no excuse for unnecessary cruelty to people or animals, and cultures that believe otherwise are morally wrong.

 

[westie88]

As an Aboriginal man, let me try to shed a tiny bit of light on this one.

Prior to 1788, Australia was divided into over 300 different Aboriginal countries. Not states, or territories, but countries. Just as Africa has 53 countries in one continent, this land was broken into 300+ Aboriginal countries, which is why you meet kids in places like Alice Springs that even today in 2012 can speak literally several different Aboriginal languages. So just because Captain Cook landed and in 2012 We all say Julia Gillard is the Prime Minister, in a remote place like Yuendumu, the law that we acknowledge and bow to, isnt held in the same high regard, because quite frankly, those fellas largely still live in their own cultural "country" by and large.

So just because we look at it through our Western/European Aussie law eyes, those boys are living in a much closer/old school/ tied to their original country and law way. There has ALWAYS been fear of tribal/old school punishment and retribution over this feud/incident. It doesnt make it right in my eyes, as personally I dont believe in an eye for an eye, but on the same token, what I (as an Aboriginal man) am hoping, is that we as Australians, can sit back, wait for all the details to emerge, and not judge/condemn/pontificate about it through our own eyes and standards, but endeavour to learn a little about the local country where it happened and what the history and background are, and what old school Yuendumu country law dictates should happen, and try to empathise with not only Liam, but everyone involved in this tragic story.

Thanks for posting this and your other posts brother. Unfortunately a lot of people were brought up and base their judgments on the idea that our ancestors were just "aimless hordes of wandering savages", and not actual sovereign countries with our own laws and systems of justice and government. At the end of the day, the customary law of our own nation, our role in our nations and the word of our elders take absolute precedence over any Australian law for most Indigenous people in Australia.

Given Jurrah's status in his nation, I think we need to wait and find out the full story and his explanation of what happened etc before judging; his status is really equivalent to a member of parliament & judge rolled into one - what would we think if the AFP went over to Indonesia and arrested an Indonesian judge for condemning someone to death by firing squad for drug offences, or went to Saudi Arabia and arrested their officials for whipping a woman for adultery?

If it is just a violent brawl, unrelated to his status in Warlpiri society, then obviously that is unacceptable, and the reality is that he will most likely also face punishment under Warlpiri law if he has unnecessarily brought shame on the community, as well as whatever punishment he gets under Australian law.

 

[timmytow]

A MUST listen! http://chirb.it/O1z82v

 

[George Washington]

At the end of the day, the customary law of our own nation, our role in our nations and the word of our elders take absolute precedence over any Australian law for most Indigenous people in Australia.

This attitude is the problem. You need to accept that you are a part of Australia and have to abide by the Australian laws.

And if that Indonesian Judge, Saudi official etc etc were in Australia doing those things they would be arrested and have the book thrown at them!

 

[westie88]

Reminds me of the kind of people that tell us all that Aboriginal people have had everything given to them for far too long and should all pull their heads in and get over everything etc.

Go have a look at the Close the Gap stats. Or look at the fact that 70% of the broader community finish high school as opposed to 3.5 % of indigenous people. Or the fact that Aboriginal people account for 70% of the boys and girls in maximum security prisons around Australia, even though we (as Aboriginal people) account for just 2.5% of the population. I could literally go on and on about physical abuse, sexual abuse, alcohol problems, petrol sniffing, drugs...

Unfortunately donbooger, you talk about benefits of living in Australia, yet you dont stop to think about the fact that for mob like the Walpiri, they dont have a whole lot of benefit. They hover between a culture and history that is ingrained in their dna and has been for thousands of years, and a white Australian culture that by and large has been foisted upon them by Australian governments.

And lets stop to think about government. Government (when talking about indigenous Australia, have by and large, failed Aboriginal people in a massive way, and there are two main reasons for that.

1. When talking about the average politician, you need to remember, we arent even getting the cream of the crop as far as business people/talented Aussies go. A close mate of mine is a big wheeling businessman and just left a huge multinational company to head up the Australian leg of another multinational company. He'd make an OUTSTANDING politician, and is more than interested in politics. Yet when I press him on why he hasnt ever gone down that path, he smiles and replies that he makes literally 5 times in business (around a million dollars a year) what he would make as a politician. Our most brilliant and achieving minds are in corporate Australia, both here and overseas.

2. Politicians are elected for 3 years. They are primarily concerned with being re elected. They arent going to pass expensive policy that will take 5, 10 and sometimes 20 years to show fruit. Therefore, a lot of the "handouts" Aboriginal people have received over the years have been short sighted, ill conceived policy designed to "make a politician look like he/she is doing something" The one benefit a politician gets financially is if they are elected for 3 terms. Then they get a pension, secretary, office, free flights etc. That 3rd term is what many of them are ALL about.

So before you go on about "they get all the benefits" etc, please, stop, close your eyes, and try to spend 20 minutes imagining that you are an Aboriginal person, that has grown up in a family that has been affected by many of the things we now know indigenous people have been affected by.

Genocide
Land displacement
having their culture completely taken away (my family were brutally flogged every time they were cught speaking their language, telling a dreaming story etc
not encouraged and often not allowed to go to school (thus helping create the figure of 3.5% of Aboriginal people now have their VCE or equivalent)
Growing up and seeing the only people from your entire race to be noticed or respected are footballers, and if you're not a footballer, where does that leave you?
Alcohol problems
A complete culture of hopelessness in many communities - and the social problems that then leads to - Physical violence, Sexual abuse, alcoholism, petrol sniffing etc
A life expectancy that is 17 years less any other demographic in Australia
Communities where people are literally STARVING! (Red Cross last year flew pallets of food into the APYlands because of this)


I could go on and on, but Im just hoping that through this whole tragic case, maybe SOME people can stop and realise that EMPATHY and a real desire to truly understand a people that are for all intents and purposes a completely different race, living in their own country, within a larger country.

There is a massive gap in Australia right now, and I pray that through what is a tragic tragic situation, maybe we can use it to try to really close that gap and understand and empathise with each other more.

Thanks again brother, most people have frankly no or very little idea about the reality of Indigenous life in Australia.

 

[westie88]

This attitude is the problem. You need to accept that you are a part of Australia and have to abide by the Australian laws.

And if that Indonesian Judge, Saudi official etc etc were in Australia doing those things they would be arrested and have the book thrown at them!

Why do we need to accept that? If the Japanese invasion of Australia had succeeded, would you be saying that all Australians have to accept that they are part of Japan and have to abide by Japanese laws?

Sorry to get political, but at the end of the day, my ancestors never entered into any treaty with the British crown to surrender our sovereignty or right to make laws and govern our own people to them. War was never declared against us and won, and we were not exterminated and destroyed. So on what grounds under international law do you say that Indigenous nations' sovereignty or authority ceased to exist and therefore their citizens have to abide by Australian laws?

 

[Crows4Eva]

At the end of the day, the customary law of our own nation, our role in our nations and the word of our elders take absolute precedence over any Australian law for most Indigenous people in Australia.

The bottom line is that if Indigenous people want to be recognised as equal members of Australian society, they have to be willing to abide by the laws of the country.

If they wish to live by their own laws and traditions, and for those traditions to be considered ahead of the laws of this country, then they cannot expect to also be considered a part of Australian society as a whole.

Perhaps a little harsh, but true none-the-less.

 

[Blues_Man]

A MUST listen! http://chirb.it/O1z82v

Thanks for the link ..that was well worth a listen

 

[Bazzar]

The victim was just 15. How terrible.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

So it is OK to hack someone with a machete if you are a person of status in an indigenous tribe carrying out justice, but not if you are that same person of status engaged in a brawl it is not acceptable. The Syrians currently hack and crush people's faces in the name of justice as the leaders see it, and the rest of the world condemns them for it. Some practices are simply barbaric and cruel no matter what cultural justification is applied to them.

Jurrah's arrest is not the equivalent of the AFP arresting someone in Indonesia. Our society does not condone physical punishment such as hacking with a machete. The method we use to dispense justice is far preferable to that we see in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and some other muslim countries. It is always going to be preferable to any system of justice that dispenes violence against others as an acceptable form of justice.

 

[WALL-e]

Reminds me of the kind of people that tell us all that Aboriginal people have had everything given to them for far too long and should all pull their heads in and get over everything etc.

Go have a look at the Close the Gap stats. Or look at the fact that 70% of the broader community finish high school as opposed to 3.5 % of indigenous people. Or the fact that Aboriginal people account for 70% of the boys and girls in maximum security prisons around Australia, even though we (as Aboriginal people) account for just 2.5% of the population. I could literally go on and on about physical abuse, sexual abuse, alcohol problems, petrol sniffing, drugs...

Unfortunately donbooger, you talk about benefits of living in Australia, yet you dont stop to think about the fact that for mob like the Walpiri, they dont have a whole lot of benefit. They hover between a culture and history that is ingrained in their dna and has been for thousands of years, and a white Australian culture that by and large has been foisted upon them by Australian governments.

And lets stop to think about government. Government (when talking about indigenous Australia, have by and large, failed Aboriginal people in a massive way, and there are two main reasons for that.

1. When talking about the average politician, you need to remember, we arent even getting the cream of the crop as far as business people/talented Aussies go. A close mate of mine is a big wheeling businessman and just left a huge multinational company to head up the Australian leg of another multinational company. He'd make an OUTSTANDING politician, and is more than interested in politics. Yet when I press him on why he hasnt ever gone down that path, he smiles and replies that he makes literally 5 times in business (around a million dollars a year) what he would make as a politician. Our most brilliant and achieving minds are in corporate Australia, both here and overseas.

2. Politicians are elected for 3 years. They are primarily concerned with being re elected. They arent going to pass expensive policy that will take 5, 10 and sometimes 20 years to show fruit. Therefore, a lot of the "handouts" Aboriginal people have received over the years have been short sighted, ill conceived policy designed to "make a politician look like he/she is doing something" The one benefit a politician gets financially is if they are elected for 3 terms. Then they get a pension, secretary, office, free flights etc. That 3rd term is what many of them are ALL about.

So before you go on about "they get all the benefits" etc, please, stop, close your eyes, and try to spend 20 minutes imagining that you are an Aboriginal person, that has grown up in a family that has been affected by many of the things we now know indigenous people have been affected by.

Genocide
Land displacement
having their culture completely taken away (my family were brutally flogged every time they were cught speaking their language, telling a dreaming story etc
not encouraged and often not allowed to go to school (thus helping create the figure of 3.5% of Aboriginal people now have their VCE or equivalent)
Growing up and seeing the only people from your entire race to be noticed or respected are footballers, and if you're not a footballer, where does that leave you?
Alcohol problems
A complete culture of hopelessness in many communities - and the social problems that then leads to - Physical violence, Sexual abuse, alcoholism, petrol sniffing etc
A life expectancy that is 17 years less any other demographic in Australia
Communities where people are literally STARVING! (Red Cross last year flew pallets of food into the APYlands because of this)


I could go on and on, but Im just hoping that through this whole tragic case, maybe SOME people can stop and realise that EMPATHY and a real desire to truly understand a people that are for all intents and purposes a completely different race, living in their own country, within a larger country.

There is a massive gap in Australia right now, and I pray that through what is a tragic tragic situation, maybe we can use it to try to really close that gap and understand and empathise with each other more.

Mate I'm really enjoying your input in this thread, it's very good to have someone with good knowledge of the situation.

Surely machette'ing people in tic for tac issues isn't a way of most aboriginal cultures though? Not to mention Liam has been involved in western culture for some time and as an elder with that experience he should know better (regardless of whether he did it, he put himself in a bad situation).

Thanks again for the info.

 

[Blues_Man]

Why do we need to accept that? If the Japanese invasion of Australia had succeeded, would you be saying that all Australians have to accept that they are part of Japan and have to abide by Japanese laws?

Yes..we would be expected to live by Japanese laws and customs...to think otherwise is just ludicrous.

Sorry to get political, but at the end of the day, my ancestors never entered into any treaty with the British crown to surrender our sovereignty or right to make laws and govern our own people to them. War was never declared against us and won, and we were not exterminated and destroyed. So on what grounds under international law do you say that Indigenous nations' sovereignty or authority ceased to exist and therefore their citizens have to abide by Australian laws?

My ancestors never signed up to get sent to a foreign country to be slaves for others either ..but thats what happened..they encountered dangerous and unfriendly natives and did what they had to do to survive ....i make no apologies for how my ancestors made their way in this country.

 

[Dawson]

This attitude is the problem. You need to accept that you are a part of Australia and have to abide by the Australian laws.

And if that Indonesian Judge, Saudi official etc etc were in Australia doing those things they would be arrested and have the book thrown at them!

This attitude is the problem.

You have to accept that this Country was invaded by Anglo's a(and Dutch) and a set of laws were imposed on the existing inhabitants in which they had no say. If they resisted they were chained or worse, shot.

Let's take your argument further.
If China invaded this Country tomorrow and said "OK whitey you are now going to work for a bowl of rice a day" I assume you would just go along with it because "we have to accept we are a part of China now and have to abide by Chinese laws"

 

[George Washington]

70% of the broader community finish high school as opposed to 3.5 % of indigenous people.

Or the fact that Aboriginal people account for 70% of the boys and girls in maximum security prisons around Australia, even though we (as Aboriginal people) account for just 2.5% of the population.

I could literally go on and on about physical abuse, sexual abuse, alcohol problems, petrol sniffing, drugs...

A complete culture of hopelessness in many communities - and the social problems that then leads to - Physical violence, Sexual abuse, alcoholism, petrol sniffing etc

A life expectancy that is 17 years less any other demographic in Australia
Communities where people are literally STARVING! (Red Cross last year flew pallets of food into the APYlands because of this)

15 Year old having his face chopped up by a machete under the guise of 'law'

Why do we need to accept that? If the So on what grounds under international law do you say that Indigenous nations' sovereignty or authority ceased to exist and therefore their citizens have to abide by Australian laws?

Maybe you might be better off if you accepted it.

 

[MaddAdam]

So Majak goes out and machete's the owner of the dog for killing his family friend's daughter and he will be given the same accomodations as Liam Jurrah today? Yeah right.

I don't see Jurrah being given any accommodations: he's been charged and remanded in custody.

But I take your point about "payback"

And I return to my point about the danger of other cultures' values being super-imposed onto our own in a legal sense.

Say Dustin Martin is with a mate who is a knockabout type of bloke and as I mentioned before, Dustin is in the car when his pmate gets pinched with a gun and drugs.

Can Dustin talk about how in the culture he was raised in you don't give evidence against your mates?

Or is he expected to fully assist police with their enquiries?

 

[Mofra]

Thanks again brother, most people have frankly no or very little idea about the reality of Indigenous life in Australia.

Bingo - how many Australian know about the "Stolen Wages" campaign?

Heck - equal pay for indigenous Australians in all industries was not introduced in Queensland until 1986

 

[timmytow]

Good read by Gerard Whateley: http://blogs.abc.net.au/gerardwhateley/2012/03/a-remote-concept.html

 

[Rumblah#16]

It seems he has actually been charged now. Apologies if this has been posted.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/liam-jurrah-in-custody-after-wild-machete-brawl/story-fn7x8me2-1226294182565

 

[Gumblestar]

Sad state of affairs all round. Understand that we do not understand these tribal matters very well, but regardless, it seems tough to justify a machete attack no matter the situation though again I do plead ignorance.

Initial thoughts are career over for Jurrah. Who knows what else. Great world.

 

[westie88]

I don't see Jurrah being given any accommodations: he's been charged and remanded in custody.

But I take your point about "payback"

And I return to my point about the danger of other cultures' values being super-imposed onto our own in a legal sense.

Say Dustin Martin is with a mate who is a knockabout type of bloke and as I mentioned before, Dustin is in the car when his pmate gets pinched with a gun and drugs.

Can Dustin talk about how in the culture he was raised in you don't give evidence against your mates?

Or is he expected to fully assist police with their enquiries?

You do get the irony of this post right? "the danger of other cultures' values being super-imposed onto our own in a legal sense."
What do you think has been done to Indigenous nations for the last 224 years???

 

[Ron The Bear]

Thanks for posting this and your other posts brother. Unfortunately a lot of people were brought up and base their judgments on the idea that our ancestors were just "aimless hordes of wandering savages", and not actual sovereign countries with our own laws and systems of justice and government. At the end of the day, the customary law of our own nation, our role in our nations and the word of our elders take absolute precedence over any Australian law for most Indigenous people in Australia.

Is Aboriginal law documented, or is it handed down via oral tradition?

 

[Mofra]

This attitude is the problem. You need to accept that you are a part of Australia and have to abide by the Australian laws.

ie an admission that you have little to no idea of Australian history since Federation

 

[westie88]

Is Aboriginal law documented, or is it handed down via oral tradition?

It is handed down by oral tradition, and yes, as with the laws of every other nation on earth, it does change and adapt to suit changing circumstances. Indigenous culture is not a stagnant thing from 224 years ago, it is a living, changing reality of life for us today.

 

[George Washington]

ie an admission that you have little to no idea of Australian history since Federation

Actually I do.

I cannot believe people in this thread are justifying his actions using 'tradition' and 'local law'.

A 15 year old kid.

Had his face chopped up.

With a machete.

We can tip toe around their traditions and history and try and be all politically correct all we want, but the facts are that this is a disgusting and barbaric thing to do. If their 'laws' and 'traditions' allow this then there is obviously something wrong.

 

[coryne]

Does anyone else actually think the charges of "intend serious harm, cause serious harm and being armed with an offensive weapon." are pretty lenient?


I mean hitting someone in the head with a machete causing "serious head injuries" would be an attempt of ending the mans life, and if the attempt was due to a tribal feud then would a charge of "attempted murder" be applicable to this incedent? If an attempted murder charge is applicable then is the lesser charge due to the police taking the circumstances of the attack into account?


I think the whole situation is tragic for everyone involved, including Jurrah, the victum and the community.