Vic Lidia Thorpe: Not the subject for every thread!

[Gethelred]

Seeing as Lidia discussion is cropping up across multiple threads, let's have us a thread for people who want to discuss her contribution to Australian politics.

It should go without saying but seeing as she's a bit of a beacon for controversy - for a variety of reasons - let's just remind ourselves what the board rules are around racism and sexism, shall we?

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Standard board rules apply, but let's make this abundantly clear: let's play nicely in here.

Go nuts.

 

[burge13]

Such an angry person

She is, about time you've noticed.

 

[burge13]

The chances of a country that comprehensively rejected the Voice accepting a land handback program are extremely remote.

As it should be and they have been given back 1000's of km of land plus get royalties on lots of other land. Why do people keep acting like nothing has been done ffs

 

[Theseventhhamster]

You can only really do absolutely nothing or give the whole country back and that's the real shame here.

Called it.

 

[QuietB]

If her intention is to look for restitution for land stolen/conquered etc and then allocated to freehold by the British/Australian

Lidia Thope's intention is irrelevent. She will not be part of any future resolution of this matter. Lidia Thorp is an agitator and an advocate. That is all. In 3.5 years Lidia Thorpe is out of the Senate for good.

Again, no one with any sense or power at all is proposing what you have written. No one.

Australia is a still a democracy, and any future outcomes will need to be achieved within the framework of that democracy. That is not going to change.

As it stands right now we have people like Lidia Thorpe who are completely incapable of compromise, and people like you who are completely incapable of compromise.

Australia as a nation did not even have the generosity of spirit to give indigenous people a largely symbolic voice.

And yet here you are petrified that Australia is going to hand the entire land mass of the continent back. Your stance is absurd.

It didn't happen when Howard shat his pants over Mabo, it didn't happen when Rudd offered the Apology, and it is not going to happen now.

 

[QuietB]

You can only really do absolutely nothing or give the whole country back and that's the real shame here.

That is complete bullshit.

Treaty is a negotiated peace. The Allies didn't get to keep the whole of Germany after the Treaty of Versailles. They negotiated the terms for moving forward - didn't work out too well in hindsight but that is what they did.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

That is complete bullshit.

Treaty is a negotiated peace. The Allies didn't get to keep the whole of Germany after the Treaty of Versailles. They negotiated the terms for moving forward - didn't work out too well in hindsight but that is what they did.

I think you may have missed the sarcasm

 

[Sphynx]

Lidia Thope's intention is irrelevent. She will not be part of any future resolution of this matter. Lidia Thorp is an agitator and an advocate. That is all. In 3.5 years Lidia Thorpe is out of the Senate for good.

Lol, why is her intention or opinion on it irrelevant? She is one of the leading advocates for the Treaty movement.

Again, you keep going down the line of dismissing a point of view because it might be at odds with your argument.

Why am I the one here acknowledging her right to a point of view? Which she has.

Again, you have brought nothing practical to the discussion.

Again, no one with any sense or power at all is proposing what you have written. No one.

Of course they haven't, no one is prepared to discuss it in depth from both sides.

One side will claim ones inconsiderate or a racist (or an alarmist lol), the other will get annihilated by public opinion when one of the actual possible outcomes is publicly discussed.

Australia is a still a democracy, and any future outcomes will need to be achieved within the framework of that democracy. That is not going to change.

As part of democracy you tend to discuss the outcomes of certain policy, not just continually bicker about the philosophical right or wrong.

As it stands right now we have people like Lidia Thorpe who are completely incapable of compromise, and people like you who are completely incapable of compromise.

And yet here you are petrified that Australia is going to hand the entire land mass of the continent back. Your stance is absurd.

That is a complete fabrication by you, again.

It's becoming a habit in most of your posting.

I'm not petrified of any land being handed back, it's already occurred on a mass scale and it's perfectly acceptable in it's current incarnation. I'm simply trying to have a reasoned discussion as to what the end goal here is for all parties? Something you keep continually dodging with just personal attacks.

Australia as a nation did not even have the generosity of spirit to give indigenous people a largely symbolic voice.

Is this you not respecting outcomes based on our framework of democracy?

It didn't happen when Howard shat his pants over Mabo, it didn't happen when Rudd offered the Apology, and it is not going to happen now.

I have no idea why you raised these particular points. Treaty was never a realistic proposition during either periods.

The Native Title Act following Mabo has had a massive positive impact on the land rights movement for Indigenous Australians. What a naive comment to include it in that context.

 

[QuietB]

I think you may have missed the sarcasm

Fair enough - bad sadly many hold that position

 

[Rotayjay]

There have been. But they're extremely limited.

You may be right about how things are now but that just shows how far this country has gone backwards in its treatment of indigenous people this century.

Thanks for nothing John Howard, Peter Dutton, and Jacinta Price.

 

[ferball]

Thanks for nothing John Howard, Peter Dutton, and Jacinta Price.

Most of it is on Howard I reckon.

 

[Sphynx]

Most of it is on Howard I reckon.

Missing apologies aside, I think the intention for some his policies were truly good, just executed extremely poorly, by Boomer dinosaurs for the most part as well.

There's nothing wrong with trying to intervene in increasing child abuse and neglect numbers.

I don't think there's anything wrong with limiting alcohol into territory communities (it's something still enforced today).

How he went about achieving it and enforcing it however.....

 

[Sinjin Smith]

No. There is another way. Let's build a Republic WITH Aboriginal Australia, all of us as one. We won't be a colonial imposition from the outside anymore and we won't have the baggage that being a colonial relic brings.

'Treaty' at its heart only matters as a negotiated settlement between conqueror and conquered. A Republic evens out the status of ALL people.

Under a new flag.

Inside a new nation.

I understand that you have the right intentions but this wont do shit. Do you think the First Nation's people who have suffered are just going to let that "baggage" go if we remove our colonial structure?

I'm no expert in indigenous matters, I refer to South of the Yarra on here for that considering his/her history and experience with working tightly with indigenous groups and services but this is the sort of wishy washy crap that appears that something is being done when in fact the same issues will still persevere. If only there was an actual outlet for experience indigenous elders to provide input and strategy for dealing with the existing issues............................

Lidia actually sought and requested an audience with the King, it was denied.........all good though David Warner had a good yarn with him. That alone should paint a pretty decent picture of what is wrong and why Lidia was pissed (and I think she could have handled herself better but understand her frustration).

 

[ferball]

Missing apologies aside, I think the intention for some his policies were truly good, just executed extremely poorly, by Boomer dinosaurs for the most part as well.

There's nothing wrong with trying to intervene in increasing child abuse and neglect numbers.

I don't think there's anything wrong with limiting alcohol into territory communities (it's something still enforced today).

How he went about achieving it and enforcing it however.....

Alot of the complaints about the intervention come from people who say they weren't listened to in regards its implementation.

But that was the last thing he did. Years before he undermined an already nerfed Native Title Act, stood in the way of reconcilliation (he raised his fist at a room full of indigenous people during the reconcilliation meeting in Canberra in '97 or '98,) refused to implement the recommendations in Bringing Them Home which included and apology, moves toward a treaty and constitutional recognition of indigenous people as the first nations of Australia.

Do you remember the womens 400m at the Sydney Olympics? It was an amazing night and possible the most united indigenous and non indigenous Australians have ever been. It was a missed opportunity and a better leader than Howard would have built something better out of it.

 

[Sphynx]

Alot of the complaints about the intervention come from people who say they weren't listened to in regards its implementation.

But that was the last thing he did. Years before he undermined an already nerfed Native Title Act, stood in the way of reconcilliation (he raised his fist at a room full of indigenous people during the reconcilliation meeting in Canberra in '97 or '98,) refused to implement the recommendations in Bringing Them Home which included and apology, moves toward a treaty and constitutional recognition of indigenous people as the first nations of Australia.

Do you remember the womens 400m at the Sydney Olympics? It was an amazing night and possible the most united indigenous and non indigenous Australians have ever been. It was a missed opportunity and a better leader than Howard would have built something better out of it.

Well, I support that decision regarding the amendment of the NTA. It's what I've discussed earlier, there needs to be some sort of middle ground regarding historical justice and the rights and prosperity of all Australians. It's also an example of why co-ownership can't work, it is too ambiguous in the eyes of the law and is a massive risk for major economic mechanisms in the country.

I also think the fact it was protested and apposed so strongly is also an example of how 'some' (not all) on that side of the fence will only settle for full land title rights, ownership and control.

In regards to Treaty - Hawke promised the indigenous community he would work towards agreeing to one by 1990 (in 1988). The ALP held power for another 8 years and didn't fulfill that promise.

It's not all Howard in that respect. At least he never even intimated Treaty was his intention.

Keating had the opportunity to do it, but opted for major land rights legal reforms in lieu of Treaty, like most other countries have in the same position as us. Those reforms have had a massive impact on legal rights to indigenous land rights. So again, not like all have sat stagnant and Treaty is the be all and end all.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

They'll finally buy in?


Dude it's still stolen lans its not equal and the idea that removing the union jack fixes things is such hopes and prayers

This is such woo woo crap

The issues are much much bigger than we're a constitutional monarchy removing that and saying ok now buy in we're all equal now is about as useful as have a voice to Parliament that can't do anything

Gralin, mate, the Republic is not about solving these massive issues, not at first anyway. It's about laying the groundwork. Pouring the slab of solid foundation. The Commonwealth of Australia with Charles III as Head of State is still a colonial relic. I'd imagine that is why so many aboriginals can't identify with the nation at a political/governmental level and why they don't feel it represents them.

Reconciliation can only be built through a sense of belonging. As I understand things, Aboriginal Australia didn't ever 'own' the land or the soil, they belonged to it.

Belonging is key. Belonging is foundation. All the structure that comes after, it is only as solid as that foundation allows.

This colonial relic is not that foundation.

 

[Gralin]

Gralin, mate, the Republic is not about solving these massive issues, not at first anyway. It's about laying the groundwork. Pouring the slab of solid foundation. The Commonwealth of Australia with Charles III as Head of State is still a colonial relic. I'd imagine that is why so many aboriginals can't identify with the nation at a political/governmental level and why they don't feel it represents them.

Reconciliation can only be built through a sense of belonging. As I understand things, Aboriginal Australia didn't ever 'own' the land or the soil, they belonged to it.

Belonging is key. Belonging is foundation. All the structure that comes after, it is only as solid as that foundation allows.

This colonial relic is not that foundation.

I'm not saying it is I'm saying a republic that is just a change of flag is not a foundation either and nothing else will change with a republic

in fact it will largely be used to say the issue is over we're not a colony anymore job done get over it and move on

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I'm not saying it is I'm saying a republic that is just a change of flag is not a foundation either and nothing else will change with a republic

in fact it will largely be used to say the issue is over we're not a colony anymore job done get over it and move on

I'd hope not, I really would. I honestly see it as opportunity, not an end in and of itself.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I understand that you have the right intentions but this wont do shit. Do you think the First Nation's people who have suffered are just going to let that "baggage" go if we remove our colonial structure?

I'm no expert in indigenous matters, I refer to South of the Yarra on here for that considering his/her history and experience with working tightly with indigenous groups and services but this is the sort of wishy washy crap that appears that something is being done when in fact the same issues will still persevere. If only there was an actual outlet for experience indigenous elders to provide input and strategy for dealing with the existing issues............................

Lidia actually sought and requested an audience with the King, it was denied.........all good though David Warner had a good yarn with him. That alone should paint a pretty decent picture of what is wrong and why Lidia was pissed (and I think she could have handled herself better but understand her frustration).

You and Gralin definitely raise a good point that a Republic in and of itself is never going to be enough. The Republic that I help vote into existence will be about establishing a foundation for a political structure that Aboriginal Australia will belong to since inception. Not something imposed on them from the outside. Not something with a foreigner as Head of State. Not a relic.

A Republic won't erase the past, and a great part of Reconciliation will be the truth-telling to come that gets to grips with what happened and what is still happening. It won't close the gap overnight.

But it will be a reset. Everything we build together from there on in depends on it.

 

[Gralin]

anyway same thing this isn't the thread for your republic manifesto

if you want to tag me into a thread about that I'll tell you the issue I have

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

anyway same thing this isn't the thread for your republic manifesto

if you want to tag me into a thread about that I'll tell you the issue I have

Yeah fair enough.

 

[ferball]

Well, I support that decision regarding the amendment of the NTA. It's what I've discussed earlier, there needs to be some sort of middle ground regarding historical justice and the rights and prosperity of all Australians. It's also an example of why co-ownership can't work, it is too ambiguous in the eyes of the law and is a massive risk for major economic mechanisms in the country.

I also think the fact it was protested and apposed so strongly is also an example of how 'some' (not all) on that side of the fence will only settle for full land title rights, ownership and control.

In regards to Treaty - Hawke promised the indigenous community he would work towards agreeing to one by 1990 (in 1988). The ALP held power for another 8 years and didn't fulfill that promise.

It's not all Howard in that respect. At least he never even intimated Treaty was his intention.

Keating had the opportunity to do it, but opted for major land rights legal reforms in lieu of Treaty, like most other countries have in the same position as us. Those reforms have had a massive impact on legal rights to indigenous land rights. So again, not like all have sat stagnant and Treaty is the be all and end all.

Look the Wik amendments were terrible. Believe it or not I was a law student at the time and the NTA was already a very average piece of legislation imo but its all ancient history now.

I agree wrt to the ALP and the treaty. It wouldn't have been an easy thing to do but some process could have been started back then and it would have had some support from the community. That period from the bicentennial until the NTA/Cathy Freeman carrying the aboriginal flag at the Comm. Games was the first time in my life that the country really made an effort to understand indigenous issues.

It was in the cultural zeitgeist so to speak. We'd been primed by Midnight Oil songs (and Warumpis) in the 80s then Archie Roach and Yothu Yindi released two songs that captured alot of (especially young) peoples imaginations and touched their hearts in different ways. Just when those issues were all over the news.

You're right, the ALP dropped the ball then.

 

[Gethelred]

They lost.

Tell me, do you make 'might is right' arguments in every day life?

 

[Crankyhawk]

I'm not indigenous so don't pretend to speak for the indigenous community, which has a wide range of view points.

What i will say, from my experience in discussions with indigenous leaders (we have an active program through my workplace), is that there is a lot of generational trauma in a lot of indigenous folk. In many case their grandparents/parents/themselves, were victims of the stolen generation, severe institutional racism, and a whole range of other issues as can be seen in things like the closing the gap report.

As a result, there is a wide range of how people express themselves. Some have been conditioned and accept it as they won't speak out. A new, louder generation have embraced "Blak, Loud and Proud" and are doing what they can to drive changes for them and more importantly their children and future generations.

I'm not sure there is one right answer, but i know something has to be done to close the gap and bring things to a level playing field.

Everyone has a sob story, everyone has trauma. It is not possible for society to adapt for everyone’s trauma. That may be harsh and callous but ultimately it is unsustainable to keep up with all the micro and macro traumas that make up life.
This will be my last word in this thread as I am very aware this is being non productive, circular and rage inducing. For me anyway.

 

[Romeoh1]

Go Lidia - alway gets the attention. Might be negative but it will make some of us think, and that’s ok.

 

[Leeda]

It completely oversimplifies the issue.

How does a non-ownership approach coexist with modern systems of private land ownership in a modern society?

I also think despite the article’s broad philosophical argument, many Indigenous groups are absolutely interested in securing legal title ownership.

As I said, it's been happening for decades.

It's still happening now - see Balmoral Beach & Burleigh Headland in the GC.

I also want to preface it by saying I'm not at all against land restitution at it's core, it just requires a balance between historical justice and the rights of current Australians.

Awesome....you sound like a tightwad hi-pants dude who likes to speak eloquently but end up ruling the plebs
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